James Marsters asked about working with Joss Whedon

[Btvs fan]

Fairly no committal answer. Says he didn't see anything and was a loner on set and that was it

 

[Moonshine71]

Most interesting take aways from this interview.

1. He believes that his salary demands for Angel are substantial factor in Charisma not being brought back for season 5.

2. Suggests an even stronger confirmation from SMG about Joss's behavior, saying he reached out to her and she was surprised he didn't know it was going on.

3. Again tells has story or being shoved hip against a wall by an angry Joss who didn't like Spike's popularity and wanted to kill him off.

 

[Btvs fan]

Most interesting take aways from this interview.

1. He believes that his salary demands for Angel are substantial factor in Charisma not being brought back for season 5.

2. Suggests an even stronger confirmation from SMG about Joss's behavior, saying he reached out to her and she was surprised he didn't know it was going on.

3. Again tells has story or being shoved hip against a wall by an angry Joss who didn't like Spike's popularity and wanted to kill him off.

"His Salary demands", were to be paid what he was being paid on Buffy. That's not unreasonable. Anyone whose Boss turns round and says we want you to carry on working for us but for less wages is taking the P!$$ big time.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Toxic people, especially powerful ones, learn who to show their faces to.

The two narcissists i have had the misfortune to deal with were passmasters at playing people and being nice (sometimes almost to the point of a kind of thrall) to those who they thought they could get something from, or those who could hurt them. They saw the angel. So did those they recognized as equals.

Those they controlled, or even worse, who were no longer useful or compliant saw their demon side.

Narcissists are terifying and live in their own predatory and vindictive world. To them, life is a video game and everyone is adversary, unless they are worshipful and obedient.

It is one reason why so many people in abusive relationships cannot hope to escape or be believed. They abuser is usually a nice person. To others.

 

[Stake fodder]

Toxic people, especially powerful ones, learn who to show their faces to.

The two narcissists i have had the misfortune to deal with were passmasters at playing people and being nice (sometimes almost to the point of a kind of thrall) to those who they thought they could get something from, or those who could hurt them. They saw the angel. So did those they recognized as equals.

Those they controlled, or even worse, who were no longer useful or compliant saw their demon side.

Narcissists are terifying and live in their own predatory and vindictive world. To them, life is a video game and everyone is adversary, unless they are worshipful and obedient.

It is one reason why so many people in abusive relationships cannot hope to escape or be believed. They abuser is usually a nice person. To others.

So absolutely true, thank you. One good effect of #metoo and similar movements is that people finally understand that people can behave differently to different people. I've often been aghast at the difficulty that some people - ones who are better able to defend themselves - have at understanding this truth. I've dealt with my share of narcissists, too, and seen this play out over and over.

Not saying that JM is one of those people, especially as he did have some experience himself of Joss's temper. But I wish we could be done with this fiction that Joss was "forced" to keep Spike on the show. He killed off several other popular characters (Tara, Doyle, and Cordelia, for instance), and did without Spike for most of S3, so Joss clearly did whatever he wanted, and he must have wanted to bring Spike back, even if he couldn't admit it to himself.

 

[Moonshine71]

"His Salary demands", were to be paid what he was being paid on Buffy. That's not unreasonable. Anyone whose Boss turns round and says we want you to carry on working for us but for less wages is taking the P!$$ big t

1. Ok? I don't recall suggesting his stance was unreasonable. By his own description, he learned that he had some leverage and used it to get the salary be felt he was worth.
2. That said, I also don't think if someone's boss says they would like to continue working with them, but on a different show, on a different network, and with(according to James) a smaller budget, that offering them a smaller salary is somehow inherently insulting.

I didn't point this out to attack James. I just thought it was interesting, considering all the discussion there is about Charisma's departure from the show. It's not an angle of speculation I often see, and while I don't really have any idea if it is accurate or not, I thought it was interesting that Marsters seems to believe it to be the case. He clearly didn't intend for or anticipate it.

 

[thrasherpix]

This conflicts with earlier stories he told of meeting together to sing songs (part of the reason OMWF came about), how SMG was like his little sister that made kissing her feel weird, the song about MT supposed (likely) crush, and also how he once said he did not like CC until he worked with her on another show because she'd played her part "too well" on Buffy so he thought that was how she was in real life as well.

Maybe I should include all the times he mixed with cast at fan conventions.

In short, I don't buy it. (Though I would if he said, "I did a lot of drinking then, I barely remember. The booze was not a prop." And then asked if that's normal for him, or if he drank specifically to stand Joss. )

It is one reason why so many people in abusive relationships cannot hope to escape or be believed. They abuser is usually a nice person. To others.

And people act different at church, on the job, partying, at home, when dealing with much older or younger, male or female, rank, apparent wealth, and many other things, but despite their thousand masks (not to mention moods) assume what they see in others is all there is rather than they're also wearing masks.

I don't know how much of it is self-aware, and how much is compartmentalization so that they're almost like different personalities (like different channels in the brain with their own behavior and memories depending on which mask they're currently wearing).

I have reasons for thinking that sometimes they very well know while pretending otherwise, but didn't care, didn't want to be inconvenienced, is potentially dangerous in one form or another (sometimes it is, including for the one needing help), or just cared too much for themselves (sometimes to exploit the sitch, even if it's to decry it for the rush of thumbs up on Facebook, though in some cases I think they come down so hard on people like Joss because it's anger at themselves for their own sins, passive or aggressive, that they need to redirect at someone else).

I can understand those who feel too overwhelmed and exhausted by their own lives to bother about anyone else they're not close to, I just wish they were more honest about it rather than playing stupid and gaslighting over it.

 

[Btvs fan]

This conflicts with earlier stories he told of meeting together to sing songs (part of the reason OMWF came about), how SMG was like his little sister that made kissing her feel weird, the song about MT supposed (likely) crush, and also how he once said he did not like CC until he worked with her on another show because she'd played her part "too well" on Buffy so he thought that was how she was in real life as well.

Maybe I should include all the times he mixed with cast at fan conventions.

In short, I don't buy it. (Though I would if he said, "I did a lot of drinking then, I barely remember. The booze was not a prop." And then asked if that's normal for him, or if he drank specifically to stand Joss. )



And people act different at church, on the job, partying, at home, when dealing with much older or younger, male or female, rank, apparent wealth, and many other things, but despite their thousand masks (not to mention moods) assume what they see in others is all there is rather than they're also wearing masks.

I don't know how much of it is self-aware, and how much is compartmentalization so that they're almost like different personalities (like different channels in the brain with their own behavior and memories depending on which mask they're currently wearing).

I have reasons for thinking that sometimes they very well know while pretending otherwise, but didn't care, didn't want to be inconvenienced, is potentially dangerous in one form or another (sometimes it is, including for the one needing help), or just cared too much for themselves (sometimes to exploit the sitch, even if it's to decry it for the rush of thumbs up on Facebook, though in some cases I think they come down so hard on people like Joss because it's anger at themselves for their own sins, passive or aggressive, that they need to redirect at someone else).

I can understand those who feel too overwhelmed and exhausted by their own lives to bother about anyone else they're not close to, I just wish they were more honest about it rather than playing stupid and gaslighting over it.

Yeah the whole Shakespeare thing was definitely overblown by Masters at the time. Its not like JW ever used him again post Ats or even for his Shakespeare movie.
JM was just self promoting and going look I'm in with Joss at the time when Joss was God, I remember watching Alexis Denisof , who is tight with Joss, even gently make fun of JM for saying it (I think it was the Reunion but can't be certain) and JM knowing it.

JM himself even admitted once he only kept in touch with David Fury and Jane Espenson post show if all the cast.
It's not like SMG kept in touch with him post show like she has Seth Green/MT or David Boreanaz .
By all accounts it was a fine professional working relationship but that was it. It was just work

As for him playing Spike. It wouldn't matter if he was an old man with zimmer frame, he'd not turn down the chance to play the role he's most famous for

 

[HushSarah]

I appreciated James' straightforward interview with Michael. Lots of things to unpack here.

His true feelings on Spike's arc were exactly mirrored to how most of us felt about him, and him seeing SMG as his sister, could be because the man is older and he just wasn't attracted to her as much as the screen revealed. And the fact that he did not see Buffy and Spike romantically. Don't know his feelings on Bangel, but it sounded like he himself wasn't a supporter of Spuffy and thought it was a toxic relationship pre and post-soul, orchestrated from the perverse mind of JW to garner ratings. Not to mention Noxon's writing obliterating any and all traits that made Spike likable in the first place.

James as an actor was underused, I felt like they could have utilized him more than what they threw his way, James did the best with what he was given, it's just too bad when fans try to write the show, Season 6-7 are the result, especially S6, arguably the worst one. Season 2 Spike was near perfection.

I get the feeling that James craved to write his character in a way that made him more feared instead of being the punching bag of the series, then eventually being a sexually abusive Gaston-type towards the end. He was struggling to say any positive things about the character overall, again, because it's true, Spike was horribly written after Season 4. James' honesty was so refreshing here, I almost wanted to give him a hug for what he confessed, some actors self-isolate when they are theater-trained. Michael really brought out the goods in this one.

 

[Btvs fan]

I appreciated James' straightforward interview with Michael. Lots of things to unpack here.

His true feelings on Spike's arc were exactly mirrored to how most of us felt about him, and him seeing SMG as his sister, could be because the man is older and he just wasn't attracted to her as much as the screen revealed. And the fact that he did not see Buffy and Spike romantically. Don't know his feelings on Bangel, but it sounded like he himself wasn't a supporter of Spuffy and thought it was a toxic relationship pre and post-soul, orchestrated from the perverse mind of JW to garner ratings. Not to mention Noxon's writing obliterating any and all traits that made Spike likable in the first place.

James as an actor was underused, I felt like they could have utilized him more than what they threw his way, James did the best with what he was given, it's just too bad when fans try to write the show, Season 6-7 are the result, especially S6, arguably the worst one. Season 2 Spike was near perfection.

I get the feeling that James craved to write his character in a way that made him more feared instead of being the punching bag of the series, then eventually being a sexually abusive Gaston-type towards the end. He was struggling to say any positive things about the character overall, again, because it's true, Spike was horribly written after Season 4. James' honesty was so refreshing here, I almost wanted to give him a hug for what he confessed, some actors self-isolate when they are theater-trained. Michael really brought out the goods in this one.

James real issue was about his guilt and him wondering if his salary expectations cost Charisma Carpenter her Job when he moved to Angel. He literally states it in the interview.

 

[Dora]

I just watch JM interview in full it was very refreshing, it even explains his crap behaviour generally at the time as he thought like Spike for a great deal of the time , he said it was Wheldon who insisted Spike went over to Angel and he feels guilt about Charisma that his high wage demand could have cost her her job .He dislikes the toxic Spike/Buffy relationship in S6 and 7 appears not a fan of Spuffy felt as a lot do that his ark undervalued the character, mentioned that he never knew what his character was doing from day to day, got the impression that he thought his character was badly written for the last 2 seasons at least. He said he rang Sarah as he had no idea about the abuse that was going on ( Tony Head was the same ) He said Spike was hardly in anything that Whedon wrote because Whedon generally like the initial idea of the core four, a generally a good interview,

 

[burrunjor]

I just watch JM interview in full it was very refreshing, it even explains his crap behaviour generally at the time as he thought like Spike for a great deal of the time , he said it was Wheldon who insisted Spike went over to Angel and he feels guilt about Charisma that his high wage demand could have cost her her job .He dislikes the toxic Spike/Buffy relationship in S6 and 7 appears not a fan of Spuffy felt as a lot do that his ark undervalued the character, mentioned that he never knew what his character was doing from day to day, got the impression that he thought his character was badly written for the last 2 seasons at least. He said he rang Sarah as he had no idea about the abuse that was going on ( Tony Head was the same ) He said Spike was hardly in anything that Whedon wrote because Whedon generally like the initial idea of the core four, a generally a good interview,

Can't wait to watch this. Sounds very refreshing. I've always liked James (aside from for the obvious reasons LOL.) I've met him and he was very likable and nice to me. One of the nicest guests at a convention along with Ingrid Oliver. (They should play a husband and wife in something.)

I've always felt James hated Spuffy too. Any chance he could he'd insult it in terms of making Spike wimpy, and also making Buffy ridiculous in still standing up for this guy after everything he did LOL.

I get that James wasn't entirely happy in series 4 because he was a bit of a background character, but again I still say they could have developed him in an interesting way without doing Spuffy. To be honest I think Joss can blame himself for it more than anyone else, as I actually think Spuffy came about from his need to have his main character be in a relationship.

He did the same thing on Angel, he decided to pair Cordelia and Angel for no reason other than just they were the most popular characters and Angel has to apparently be involved with someone. He didn't seem to realise that actually a character doesn't always have to be involved romantically. By all means give Buffy a love interest if one springs up naturally, but don't just shoehorn any old guy (Riley) or rewrite a guy (Spike) for the sake of it.

 

[Btvs fan]

Can't wait to watch this. Sounds very refreshing. I've always liked James (aside from for the obvious reasons LOL.) I've met him and he was very likable and nice to me. One of the nicest guests at a convention along with Ingrid Oliver. (They should play a husband and wife in something.)

I've always felt James hated Spuffy too. Any chance he could he'd insult it in terms of making Spike wimpy, and also making Buffy ridiculous in still standing up for this guy after everything he did LOL.

I get that James wasn't entirely happy in series 4 because he was a bit of a background character, but again I still say they could have developed him in an interesting way without doing Spuffy. To be honest I think Joss can blame himself for it more than anyone else, as I actually think Spuffy came about from his need to have his main character be in a relationship.

He did the same thing on Angel, he decided to pair Cordelia and Angel for no reason other than just they were the most popular characters and Angel has to apparently be involved with someone. He didn't seem to realise that actually a character doesn't always have to be involved romantically. By all means give Buffy a love interest if one springs up naturally, but don't just shoehorn any old guy (Riley) or rewrite a guy (Spike) for the sake of it.

He does say he pushed for Spike being in love with Buffy, he just didn't think she'd reciprocate

 

[TheMaster666]

I'm not jumping to conclusions here, but offering one possible interpretation of the facts:

Is it at all possible that the guy under pressure from being at the helm of multiple projects had his moments of assholery (like every human being) which Charisma then reinterpreted years later after therapy as some form of abuse or something? Especially because she was unceremoniously fired in bad blood? Because nearly all the other cast members offer the obligatory responses of sympathy/empathy such an accusation demands, while still reaffirming their love for the show. In short, they're walking on eggshells like they have to to protect their reputation and careers, some willing to throw Whedon under the bus, others not so much. But I think the most confirmation I've seen is Michelle Trachtenburg offering vague references. I don't think anybody else has outright accused him of anything.

Obviously I don't actually know any of these people in real life, and again I'm just offering this as one possible interpretation of events. I like to believe in "innocent till proven guilty" before making judgments about people.

Post automatically merged: Sep 28, 2021

On the whole Spike/Buffy matter, I agreed initially that his character did become way too much of a punching bag. He was once the big bad, then he became the butt of jokes and seemingly more pathetic every time he appeared on screen. BUT they really turned that around and Spike's evolution imo was so interesting and compelling that I'm glad they didn't stick with the original vision. Their initimacy was completely believable, and Spike provided that much needed role or vacancy the show had once Angel left.

Post automatically merged: Sep 28, 2021

He does say he pushed for Spike being in love with Buffy, he just didn't think she'd reciprocate

I don't think Buffy or her friends ever imagined she could reciprocate...which is exactly what made him a guilty pleasure she allowed herself to indulge in for a while. The sort of sexy because it's dirty. Later on she had faith that his soul could mean he would help them in the days to come, and his honor in the final season won her heart over.