More of a Good Guy? Spike or Faith

[Joshua]

After trying to redeem their evil past, who do you think is more of a good guy?

Faith
or
Spike

 

[thetopher]

Faith.

I mean, if we're talking about somebody trying to redeem their past actions then there's no comparison.
Faith remembers her troubled history and betters herself, whilst doing things like trying to make sure other slayers don't go down that same path, that the troubled ones always have guidance.

 

[Stoney]

After trying to redeem their evil past, who do you think is more of a good guy?

I don't think you can say one is more of a good guy than the other personally. Both have independently and individually committed to putting their lives on the line to fight for the greater good and for others. Spike literally sacrificed himself already once for the world when he chose to stay in the hellmouth and thought he was giving up the chance to be recorporealised to save Fred. But I think Faith would do the same things in the same situations for the same reasons, they both behave heroically.

Spike may be meaningfully different with a soul to the person who committed the crimes he did in a way that Faith isn't as she was souled when she murdered etc, but he isn't totally separable and still has to deal with the demonic side of himself even with a soul. So both of them have ongoing internal challenges to deal with and despite neither of them tending to open themselves and be vulnerable, when they do they make their issues with their pasts very clear. So again I don't think there is something meaningfully between them. I suspect it comes down to character/story preferences.

 

[Bluebird]

Definitely Faith. I think Spike understands what he did but he removes the guilt of it by disassociation. He sees it as the way of the world, vampires eat people. Although tbh, other than the few scary stories he tells, he's not one for torture or pure trauma, the way Angelus was.

 

[Guy]

Well, that's a very philosophical question - what is it that makes us "good guys"? Is it about the amount of good we've done in the world? Is it about the amount of good we've done COMPARED to the amount of bad we've done? Is it just about who we are right now?

In the end, I'm a big believer in the "you're only as good as your last gig" idea. The past doesn't matter, only the present. You can be someone who saved the world millions of times, but it doesn't mean anything if you do something bad IN THIS MOMENT. In Angel's words: If nothing we do matters... Then all that matters is what we do.

So, based on that, who's a better person, Faith or Spike? Well, they're both pretty great... But the answer is Spike. Why? Because Faith still has tons of severe issues that could make her snap at any moment. She still has rage issues, and she still struggles with cynicism, and she's just more unstable than Spike - who's not a picture of mental health himself. So, yeah. Spike.

 

[Priceless]

Both Spike and Faith are good guys, now. It's hard to measure their competing levels of 'goodness' because their stories are so different and the definition of 'good' is pretty fluid.

Sacrificing your life for others is probably the most selfless act possible, and Spike did that. He doesn't wallow in guilt and self-doubt, he just does what has to be done without the internal monologues and self-pity, so some don't think he shows enough sorrow for his actions, but he realises that guilt in his situation changes nothing.

 

[white avenger]

Basically, it comes down to which one has the half empty cup, and which one has the half full one. It's totally a matter of interpretation and favoritism.

Some will see Faith as the tortured dark Slayer, struggling to make amends for the mistakes of her troubled past, and Spike as the irresponsible, uncaring clod who has no regrets for his past sins, as long as he is now in Buffy's good graces.

Some will see Faith as the Slayer who made the big show of answering for her crimes only as an effort to escape the Watchers' Council death squad, then breaking out at the first opportunity, and Spike as Buffy's true Champion and only real soul mate, the vampire who actually fought for his soul, in an effort to make things right, both in his actions toward Buffy, and all of the evil that he caused as a monster.

Personally, I see both characters as honestly trying to become better people, regretful and ashamed of their past, but trying to get on with their lives and do what is right from this point forward. The past is past. You can't change it, and brooding over it is a waste of time. You can learn from your past mistakes, and move forward with the determination to be a better person, and that is what I see both Faith and Spike doing equally.

 

[The Bronze]

You'd have to draw up a "goodness" criteria before getting to a real answer here. As of right now they both fight evil, help others and put their lives on the line doing it so there's not much to choose between them. If you're trying to include their past as well then I guess Spike has been consistently good while souled whereas Faith has an evil stretch as a black mark against her. Or play a numbers game, people saved vs people hurt? Would be a tough ask, if you save the world twice do you get to count everyone twice?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I'm going to say Spike just because I like him more than Faith. However, Stoney makes a good point. They've both done things they regret, they both save people etc etc. There's not really much difference between them in terms of goodness to say one is more good than the other.

 

[black cat]

I think that Faith is a little bit more aware of her actions and accept, better than Spike, to be treated with rudeness and mistrust from the others ( knowing her evil past and how dangerous and false she can be) and she does not have the arrogance to demand understanding and acceptance from others!

In my opinion Spike feels safe and empowered without having to give explanations because he knows he 's support Buffy! Spike needs to understand himself and what is right and wrong alone... Spike, somehow, is too much slave of his passion and istinct ( we see this in Angel season five where Spike start to think depth of his actions... In "Damage")

 

[Athena]

I think they're incomparable to be honest. Faith is a slayer, a human, capable of both good and bad (as are all humans) but she has a soul and a conscious. She chooses whether or not to use them. Spike is a vampire. Yes, he's not a normal vampire, he is shown to empathise with people and understand emotion, but for the majority of the show he is soulless and will always revert back to his demonic ways, because that's his nature.

Who's more of a good guy? Undoubtedly Faith, but only because she's human. But that also depends on your definition of good. They're both redemptive characters, maybe that's a better question to ask: Who had more redemption? Who more deserved that redemption?

 

[Monkey Pants]

So, based on that, who's a better person, Faith or Spike? Well, they're both pretty great... But the answer is Spike. Why? Because Faith still has tons of severe issues that could make her snap at any moment. She still has rage issues, and she still struggles with cynicism, and she's just more unstable than Spike - who's not a picture of mental health himself. So, yeah. Spike.

But being more mentally unstable doesn't mean you're a worse person...couldn't this go the opposite way and say that because of this Faith is better, because she has to try to control herself more? In your opinion that might make her more dangerous, because she "could" snap, but she hasn't yet, so it doesn't make her bad.

 

[GoSpuffy]

This is a tough call and a hard comparison to make particularly because I've seen season 1 through 7 of Buffy plus season 10 and season 1 to 5 of angel but no A&F seasons. I'm giving it to spike only because someone on here (maybe @sosa lola ?) convinced me it was Spike's demon and not spike's human side that chose the soul. When you consider the magnitude of that it has to be Spike. Faith had a soul and committed atrocities. Spike had no soul and recognized what he had to do to put evil behind him. Spike's journey to redemption was more difficult and was harder to achieve. Faith had a story that can be compared to many others.

 

[Guy]

But being more mentally unstable doesn't mean you're a worse person...couldn't this go the opposite way and say that because of this Faith is better, because she has to try to control herself more? In your opinion that might make her more dangerous, because she "could" snap, but she hasn't yet, so it doesn't make her bad.

You're right, it isn't fair... But it's just the reality. In practice, reformed-Faith stumbles more than ensouled-Spike, because her issue wasn't a lack of a soul, it was her actual, regular human personality. And I freakin' LOVE Faith! And she has a much more compelling redemption arc than Spike (Spike's story isn't about "redemption", really, it's about other things)! In fact, I'd say that Faith has EASILY the best redemption arc in the Buffyverse. No one else comes even close.

But here's the thing - In season 8, Faith stabbed Giles with a fork when he just touched her shoulder. She nearly strangled Buffy to death out of rage.In season 9, she almost killed her father in a fit of rage. Faith tries SO hard to better herself, but she still stumbles. It's not just that she's unstable in theory, it's in practice too. Spike, on the other hand, doesn't have that issue. He has it easier, maybe, but he still does less bad things than Faith (excluding when he's mind-controlled, which doesn't count), and just as much good as her.

But really, the whole "good person" concept is kind of a fallacy... There's no such thing thing as "good people" and "bad people", there's just good actions and bad actions. I think that Spike does just as many good actions as Faith, and less severe bad actions, so I picked him for this thread, but really, it's a moot question.

 

[Benz]

After rewatching Season 5 I think Spike is more good as he seem to slowly genially become good as he takes care of Dawn and becomes more willing to help and make some what of amends.

I can't see Faith taking care of Dawn like Spike did and I don't think Buffy would trust Faith to look after Dawn.

I think Good guy Spike seem more like by people then Faith.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Spike seemed to be making more forward progress with less stumbles, especially afte the soul.

 

[thetopher]

But here's the thing - In season 8, Faith stabbed Giles with a fork when he just touched her shoulder. She nearly strangled Buffy to death out of rage.In season 9, she almost killed her father in a fit of rage. Faith tries SO hard to better herself, but she still stumbles. It's not just that she's unstable in theory, it's in practice too. Spike, on the other hand, doesn't have that issue.

I disagree here about Spike having no issues surrounding his good guy status, I just don't think its an issue of control, but how they both view a lack of control.

S7 Spike, after the initial horror, cared very little about the fact that the trigger had made him kill and turn many people- that loss of control didn't seem to bother him that much.
I'm not talking about the 'mind control' aspects- you can't fairly blame Spike for all the killing- but his reaction to it up until and including 'LMPTM' is just...he's way too comfortable with something evil playing around in his head.
Also the way he beat Wood to a pulp- valid- and then just up and bit him and taunting him with the 'knowledge' that Wood's slayer Mum never really loved him and that's MY COAT thank you very much, etc.

Punching Faith in the face in a completely unprovoked manner in 'Touched'.
Contrasted with Faith who gets punched by Buffy (twice) but doesn't fight back because 'other things matter more'- points to a far greater control of temper to be honest.

Starting the fight with Angel in S5 'Destiny'- Spike threw the first punch- and for what? Because he wanted to take something away from Angel. He remembered what Angelus taught him- take what you want- and it still applies to Spike's thinking in his ensouled state.

Spike has stumbled plenty, he just doesn't view it as a 'loss of control', because they stem from his personality, not his 'darkness'.

I think a character who is more aware of the faults is- on the whole- a better example of a good guy.

 

[Guy]

I disagree here about Spike having no issues surrounding his good guy status, I just don't think its an issue of control, but how they both view a lack of control.

S7 Spike, after the initial horror, cared very little about the fact that the trigger had made him kill and turn many people- that loss of control didn't seem to bother him that much.
I'm not talking about the 'mind control' aspects- you can't fairly blame Spike for all the killing- but his reaction to it up until and including 'LMPTM' is just...he's way too comfortable with something evil playing around in his head.
Also the way he beat Wood to a pulp- valid- and then just up and bit him and taunting him with the 'knowledge' that Wood's slayer Mum never really loved him and that's MY COAT thank you very much, etc.

Punching Faith in the face in a completely unprovoked manner in 'Touched'.
Contrasted with Faith who gets punched by Buffy (twice) but doesn't fight back because 'other things matter more'- points to a far greater control of temper to be honest.

Starting the fight with Angel in S5 'Destiny'- Spike threw the first punch- and for what? Because he wanted to take something away from Angel. He remembered what Angelus taught him- take what you want- and it still applies to Spike's thinking in his ensouled state.

Spike has stumbled plenty, he just doesn't view it as a 'loss of control', because they stem from his personality, not his 'darkness'.

I think a character who is more aware of the faults is- on the whole- a better example of a good guy.

I was thinking more about season 10 Spike versus season 10 Faith. If you're talking about season 7... You might have a point. Spike was still a work in progress (hello, mommy issues), whereas Faith seemed to be full of purpose immediately after leaving jail, and that sense of purpose helped her keep her demons under control. After the First Evil was defeated, Faith kinda lost some of her sense of purpose, and her demons started re-surfacing again ('No Future for You', where Faith is being all Jessica Jones with the mental problems).

Although they were both good guys either way, in season 7 and in season 10.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

taunting him with the 'knowledge' that Wood's slayer Mum never really loved him and that's MY COAT thank you very much, etc.

The coat was very important to Spike as a character, he's not Spike without the coat. I think what's interesting is, after he got his soul, Spike didn't wear the coat but had it packed away in a box. The coat represented the vampire in him and it was as if he was rejecting that side of himself. When Buffy gave her little buck up speech to him and Willow, he went and retrieved his coat. The whole putting it on scene combined with the music had a very much "I'm back" vibe to it. He was embracing that side of himself, and since it enabled him to defeat the demon, made him a much better fighter. Rather than choosing between one or the other, he accepted both sides of himself. Also, because the coat is an integral part of Spike's character, the writers could hardly have him say "keep the coat".

I don't think Spike was taunting in the sense he was going "your mum didn't love you, nah nah nah nah nah", but I think he was being very blunt in how he phrased his words. Basically Spike's trigger with the song all related back to his mother and what happened after he turned her. It traumatised him to see his beloved mother be like that, and he never dealt with those issues. When he got his soul back, that trauma was affecting him subconsciously which is why the song was the trigger as that's what his mother used to sing to him. Spike was able to overcome the trigger by dealing with the trauma and accepting the fact that what happened after he sired his mother wasn't really his mother talking but the demon. Spike rather indelicately pointed out to Robin that although Nikki loved him, she didn't give up the mission for him whereas he was his mother's world.

Both men had mommy issues but on separate ends of the scale. Spike thought his mother didn't really love him because of what was said after her siring but overcame them by accepting the fact that actually she did love him and it was the demon talking not her. Robin pictured Nikki as this doting mother who was cruelly taken from him and couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the sole focus of her life. Towards the end of season 7, he somewhat came to terms with the fact that his mother had an important job to do and that "the mission is what matters". It doesn't mean that Nikki didn't love him, but she couldn't give up on saving the world just because of him. This was then reiterated with Buffy saying to Giles that she would sacrifice Dawn to save the world if she had to.

 

[thetopher]

I don't think Spike was taunting in the sense he was going "your mum didn't love you, nah nah nah nah nah", but I think he was being very blunt in how he phrased his words.

That's exactly what Spike said; my Mum loved me and your Mum didn't love you. If she had loved you then she wouldn't have been the slayer, blah blah. It was laughable how little Spike understood of what it meant to be a slayer, to be a mother, to have obligation that you couldn't walk away from. After that I doubted every 'truth' the guy had ever uttered and reevaluated them.

The sad fact is that Buffy, a slayer and also who had the obligation of motherhood thrust upon her at a young age, agrees with Spike of all people and never even attempts to sympathize with Wood.
Lots of dislike for that episode and those characters, right there. But that's OT.

The coat was very important to Spike as a character, he's not Spike without the coat. I think what's interesting is, after he got his soul, Spike didn't wear the coat but had it packed away in a box. The coat represented the vampire in him and it was as if he was rejecting that side of himself. When Buffy gave her little buck up speech to him and Willow, he went and retrieved his coat. The whole putting it on scene combined with the music had a very much "I'm back" vibe to it. He was embracing that side of himself, and since it enabled him to defeat the demon, made him a much better fighter. Rather than choosing between one or the other, he accepted both sides of himself. Also, because the coat is an integral part of Spike's character, the writers could hardly have him say "keep the coat".

They could've had Spike reject going to far 'back into himself', that would've been interesting, that struggle to find a balance- where to draw the line. But nope, he puts on the coat and he';s the Big Bad again. Boring.

Faith did it MUCH better in 'Release'- where to draw the line, how to be a good fighter whilst also holding onto her humanity. Wesley pushed her one way, and she pushed back. Spike should've done the same instead of rolling over for Buffy maybe?


Also its disturbing. Spike with a soul is- for all intents and purposes- a blank slate. Like Angel he can remake himself in a way to get over his horrible past. I could understand that. Instead he revels in it- that's what the coat says to me. Not acceptance, pride. (this is evident in 'Damage' and 'TGIQ') He's wearing a trophy, a kill. I have never seen any other character - a reformed one- do this and I don't particularly like it.

I guess I would say that Spike is heroic, he does hero-things, but he isn't a nice guy. Mildly put.

Both men had mommy issues but on separate ends of the scale. Spike thought his mother didn't really love him because of what was said after her siring but overcame them by accepting the fact that actually she did love him and it was the demon talking not her. Robin pictured Nikki as this doting mother who was cruelly taken from him and couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the sole focus of her life.

I would've like to see more empathy from Mr. intuitive sensitive poet-guy to be honest. Maybe something along the lines of 'both my Mum and your Mum were victims of ME, the demon, and I know the anger and the pain that you feel, cause I've felt it for about a hundred years- that loss and pain.'
Again, the writers went a different way- I get that, but it still feels like Spike is bullying and belittling somebody who he caused a large amount of pain and had the chance to apologize to.
I know, Wood tried to kill him, but Holtz took Angel's son, and he still heard the guy out.