Member of the Church Of Faith
- Dec 23, 2013
- The Moot, England
Buffy's decision to NOT kill Spike was correct, and she is rewarded for it by Spike's support. On the other hand, Buffy's lenience about the trigger was wrong, and she gets punished for it by being deposed in 7x19.
Hmn, I think Buffy getting deposed had very little to do with Spike to be honest, it was about Buffy's judgement that season, pushing people away and acting rashly.
I've never been one to hate-on the Scoobies for usurping Buffy- I understand some of them and dislike others for what they did- but it was probably necessary for her to get the kick in the pants.
But overall I don't think it was 'punishment' exactly, and certainly don't link it to what happens in this episode (apart from the Giles thing obviously).
Everyone can love 2 things at the same time, sure, but Nikki's decision was still unfair and victimizing to her son, and Robin needed to acknowledge it so he could stop idealizing her and stop obsessing over her ("she was my world"). So, I don't see the problem here.
Again, I don't see enough evidence to judge if Nikki was a 'bad mother' or not.
I mean, obviously; 70's New York, Afro, kick-ass Slayer, she was clearly one Bad Mother- in those terms but, you get what I'm saying.
The way I see it, Spike's killing of Robin is not something he has any reason to feel bad about, because it was entirely a result of his vampire nature, which he didn't have a choice about. Spike's relationship with Buffy in season 6, however, is something more blurry and complicated - it wasn't just Spike being a vampire, it was also Spike's human side, his obsession with romanticism, that was at work there. So he obviously feels more guilty about that, after he's ensouled.
Again I disagree. Something in Spike's 'vamp make-up' wanted him to go and hunt down super-women who kill his kind. That something had to come from somewhere in his personality, and that 'something' is revealed in 'LMPTM'- Mommy issues that explains lots about his relationships with all kinds of women.
But really, Spike shouldn't feel guilt about ANYTHING that he did while soulless, logically.
While I agree to an extent- for example Spike doesn't have to feel guilty for killing slayers or keeping demon eggs or trying to kill Buffy. The relationship in S6 is different though, he loved her then and he loves her still.
And his story isn't about guilt, the way Angel's is.
I don't want Spike to be like Angel. There are other ways to tell redemption stories. Faith, Wesley, Andrew....nah I'm kidding screw Andrew, but there are other ways.
You're not supposed to "condemn" Nikki. She was in a complicated situation, and tried to do what's right. But the apt metaphor here isn't a working mother - the apt metaphor is a WORKOHOLIC working mother.
Again, I don't see enough to GET that distinction. Do we know- at that time- that Nikki was some workacolic slayer? Not really.
And its all muddled up by Spike talking about things he can't possibly know about. Does Spike know anything about being a mother/parent? Nope, he was a coddled son. Does he know about slayers? Again, no, he just killed a couple.
I think in all honesty by this point in the series I've just had it with him mouthing off about things he doesn't understand. He's like...Season 3 Faith going on about Angel or something. 'You don't have a clue so shut-up.'
First of all, I really don't remember Robin saying that his mom never loved him. Not in season 9, and not ever.
Buffy goes to see him about her 'situation' and he mentions it off-hand I'm sure of it. And its not that Nikki didn't love him- she HAD him after all but the fact that Robin now thinks this is very sad.
First of all, there's a BIG difference between a teenager and a baby.
Dawn is technically one year old. And kind of a whiny brat to boot (and I like Dawn-y).
Second of all - did Buffy's life as a slayer not affect her ability to raise Dawn too?
So you're saying that Buffy was wrong to keep Dawn around? Or anybody she loved and put at risk?
I dunno, a slayer is alone enough as it is. Let them have ties to the world. As far as I'm concerned Spike messed Robin up, not Nikki.
'Becoming' isn't a Buffy-centric episode? I disagree completely.
Well. ALL episodes are Buffy-centric to a degree. Even ones that aren't about her illustrate something about her or her relationships or something- that's just the writing of the show.
But Becoming is more about destiny and choice and they interact and mess things up. There's stuff in there about Buffy, sure, but we find out so much about Angel and his destiny- then yeah, its mostly about him in my view.
When is Spike's opinion about "she was a slayer, I was a vampire" contradicted? Well, in the next season, in AtS.
I tend to thing as AtS S5 as a massive repair job when it comes to Spike. They get him away from Buffy and try and 'fix' his character a bit.
It's actually surprisingly similiar - both Spike and Faith are saying true things, in nasty ways, to characters they're fighting against.
Faith is trying to 'talk Gigi' out of fighting/break through her anger and try and make her think. Faith- in the context of the fight- doesn't want to harm Gigi anymore than she has to. I think that's where I see a difference.
And again - Honestly, Spike isn't really responsible for his bad acts toward Buffy, either. It's more blurry there, but it's still unfair to blame him for it. He wouldn't have tried to rape her if he was ensouled.
But, as he said, he got a soul for her and wants recognition for that act. But 'he' didn't do that, his demon did. He's not responsible for any of it. But he never acts that way, he acts like it was all part of his reformation.
Plus he still loves Buffy- as he tells her- and that blurs the line even further.
Well, first of all, AtS season 5 Spike is not the same as BtVS season 7 Spike. He changed over time. And he tends to regress whenever he's near Angel, really.
Yep, repair job like I said. I'm not a fan of Angel in that episode either btw. The Spangel regression thing? So, so tiresome.
So... You DON'T think that Angel is even the same person as the guy who killed all those people, And yet you like it when he's blaming himself for it?
It's not like I cheer when I see his guilt or anything- I tend to find the brooding tiresome at times- but I UNDERSTAND it in the context of Angel's story. 100 plus years of being conditioned to blame himself/see himself as a monster is going to effect anyone, no matter what.
Hmmm. I think I get it - You love Angel for the same reason that I love Buffy - she constantly tries to be a good person, and when she over-blames herself, it just makes me want to hug her. I mean, it's hard not to admire idealism, right? Idealism is what makes Buffy and Angel into heroes.
That's part of it. Also that their essentially isolated because of their condition. There is a fundamental lack of connection because of their place in the world. I think I root for them because they a) get crapped on the most because their the title characters and b) their both pretty fascinating characters, with lots of layers and neuroses to poke at and explore.
Granted, Angel just doesn't WORK for me as a hero, but that's a seperate issue...
I find some of Angel's character traits problematic. It's safe to say that I have big problems with both Angel and Spike and how they see themselves and a couple of their key relationships.
And if I may presume - I think that the reason Spike doesn't work for you as a character is that you're trying to like him in the same way that you like Angel, when Spike is a fundamentally different type of character. Spike's past as a soulless killer is almost irrelevant to his character, once he gets a soul. Especially compared to Angel. Spike's story isn't interesting as a story about redmeption, it's interesting as a story about obsession, and as a story about the idea of love
I used to like Spike a lot. But yeah, I find him mostly shallow by the time he gets a soul. He doesn't seem to grow that much with his added humanity, its still 'Buffy, Buffy. Buffy'. I blame Spuffy for that.
Plus he gets SO MANY breaks over the course of the series without many consequences or going through that many hardships (in comparison to others). Mostly he gets to say/do what he likes and get away with it.
He gets better over on Angel- he seems to grow up a lot (eventually)- and I don't mind him in the comics, so that's something.
and as the story of an insecure person who built a facade of badassery to mask his insecurities.
I would have more sympathy for the guy if he wasn't over a century old by this point. Shouldn't immortals get over the whole 'poseur' thing. I guess I have as little time for Spike's posturing/insecurity that you do for Angel's hand-wringing.
Spike's cruelty toward Robin was, well, cruel. Very understandable, but cruel. If BUFFY acted that way, I would see it very differently. Buffy is a character that I ADMIRE, and if she did such a cruel thing, it would be harder for me to admire her.
Agreed. I don't want to see anybody act that way toward somebody. And I don't even LIKE Wood, the guy's a smug, petty, backstabbing, deceitful jackass most of the time. But if a character is a jerk, I call him (or her) a jerk I guess. Lol