Spike still damned?

[Cyberdemon]

Im on angel s5 ep 4 right now and it's crazy to think that he's still damned after getting a soul and saving the world? is this just more lore damage that angel is infamous for?

 

[thrasherpix]

He's not damned. Rather, a spirit was saving himself by sacrificing others. It did help if they didn't believe in themselves as then they couldn't muster the will to fight back, and probably made it easier to send them to Hell.

That said, the Higher Powers tick me off about as much as the Lower. They're more about Order vs Chaos (as opposed to Good vs Evil) similar to this Babylon 5 clip, where BOTH of them suck:

 

[Stake fodder]

I think the lesson in AtS is that the vampires are never done atoning. But perhaps it's just that the Powers that Be suspected Spike of ulterior motives in sacrificing himself for Buffy the world.

 

[thrasherpix]

Let's remember that even an inexperienced teen witch recovering from head trauma in the hospital can still snatch souls from the ether. To me that implies the Higher Powers have little control (or at least don't care enough to control) the fate of souls.

 

[Priceless]

I probably have a very romantic view of redemptions but I think it's a life long process with no guarantee of success. You have to renew your commitment to it every day and fully understand there may be nothing for you at the end. You may never be redeemed, never enter heaven, never be forgiven. Redemption is an act, not a feeling. It's paying for the bad you've done previously, in the full knowledge that you can never fully repay, but be willing to accept that and still want to do it.

Helping to save the world is a great first step, but it doesn't make up for a hundred plus years of horror you've inflicted on your victims. So I fully believe both Angel and Spike are damned. I don't know how they could be any other.

 

[Spanky]

You have to renew your commitment to it every day

Sorta like sobriety. Which is what it was supposedly based on, at least initially.

 

[AstridDante]

I don’t think either Spike or Angel are damned as it would be their souls that would be damned so to speak. In Angel Season 5, I can’t remember the episode but Spike said that both he and Angel were victims at one point which is true. So this is why Buffy treats the souled and soulless entities different. As souled human Spike (William) had been a good man. Angel as a souled human appeared to be a bit of a lout but not a bad person per se and since they have had their souls returned both have fought the good fight. So in that respect I don’t think either of their souls are damned for their soulless acts

 

[Stake fodder]

I don’t think either Spike or Angel are damned as it would be their souls that would be damned so to speak. In Angel Season 5, I can’t remember the episode but Spike said that both he and Angel were victims at one point which is true. So this is why Buffy treats the souled and soulless entities different. As souled human Spike (William) had been a good man. Angel as a souled human appeared to be a bit of a lout but not a bad person per se and since they have had their souls returned both have fought the good fight. So in that respect I don’t think either of their souls are damned for their soulless acts

I have wondered if the 'damnation' is due to the demon still being present in them. If Angel or Spike were really to die, presumably his soul and the demon would be separated, and possibly have different after-lives. In Spike's case in "Hell Bound", he's not really dying, but being sent to (a) hell (dimension) by Pavayne, so not being divided into parts.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If Spike is damned then it makes his already iffy decision to get a soul (so Buffy would find him "acceptable") even worse. When a person is sired and their soul goes wherever it goes, that soul is not responsible for the actions of that vampire. Therefore if Harmony was to be dusted, her soul would suffer no consequences. However since Angel and Spike have their souls as vampires, that soul now bears responsibility for the vampire's actions as it is now joined so I think if they were to be dusted, their souls would go to hell for all the things they did whilst soulless.

It really adds to the reason why the gypsies gave Angelus a soul. They didn't want him to be a better man (which is often the reason used for Spike getting a soul), they wanted him to suffer eternally. Either the soul tortures him for so long as he lives, or he gets dusted and his soul is sent to hell to suffer there.

 

[Spanky]

However since Angel and Spike have their souls as vampires, that soul now bears responsibility for the vampire's actions

Only the action going forward after being souled, not for the actions of the unsouled vampire.

if they were to be dusted, their souls would go to hell for all the things they did whilst soulless.

If anything their souls would be rewarded for thwarting any deaths that the soulless vampires would have caused.

 

[Dora]

In season 1 Buffy says , its not you its the thing that killed you , Yes killed , if demons have souls which I doubt , they would have to be dead for their sole to leave the body , Now Angelus was given his soul as a punishment by the Gipsies , and Spike was tricked into being given his soul by a demon , Now in Spikes case everyone says its Williams soul Spike was given, Why ?, lets get this into perspective , poor old Williams soul is forced back into his old body , now occupied by the demon that killed him, what would that do to anyone, the demon then goes on a killing spree which William soul has to watch close up, there is a good chance that Williams soul would have escape when the body was destroyed by fire , but there is a chance Spike demon soul move onto season 5 of angel

 

[Priceless]

I thought damnation was about your soul. It was your soul that was damned, because without that all you are is a body and once that's dust, there can be no more. There is nothing left to be redeemed.

 

[Nearwild]

If you consider giving your life for others a sacrifice, then Spike has an automatic pass from hell. But then there could also be a element of 'you get what you think you deserve', and he clearly still thinks he deserves hell in that episode. Personally I don't think their souls were responsible for the vampire acts, but they do, so that guilt will have an effect. I do feel that they both show enough genuine contrition for everything though, so don't think they'd be automatically damned.

 

[thrasherpix]

From what I see I don't think anyone is control. It's a bunch of factions, and even a teen with some mojo can become a player.

The only ones shown definitively to have some power over the afterlife of someone is Wolfram & Hart (and presumably the one Gunn sold his soul to for his truck, and I think Anya turned at least one into a demon against his will which probably counts), and even they have to get you to agree before they can do it. (And apparently it must be of their own free will and knowledge, otherwise they could have people sign contracts with invisible ink fine print, or with memory spells, etc. Even vampires don't have to be so honest in getting an invite.)

 

[Cyberdemon]

Sorta like sobriety. Which is what it was supposedly based on, at least initially.

very true. once an addict, always an addict.

I don’t think either Spike or Angel are damned as it would be their souls that would be damned so to speak. In Angel Season 5, I can’t remember the episode but Spike said that both he and Angel were victims at one point which is true. So this is why Buffy treats the souled and soulless entities different. As souled human Spike (William) had been a good man. Angel as a souled human appeared to be a bit of a lout but not a bad person per se and since they have had their souls returned both have fought the good fight. So in that respect I don’t think either of their souls are damned for their soulless acts

Wow never looked at it that way.

If Spike is damned then it makes his already iffy decision to get a soul (so Buffy would find him "acceptable") even worse. When a person is sired and their soul goes wherever it goes, that soul is not responsible for the actions of that vampire. Therefore if Harmony was to be dusted, her soul would suffer no consequences. However since Angel and Spike have their souls as vampires, that soul now bears responsibility for the vampire's actions as it is now joined so I think if they were to be dusted, their souls would go to hell for all the things they did whilst soulless.

Thats really interesting. it's almost like spike damned himself. WTF!

 

[Cyberdemon]

It's like William's vampire (spike) hates him more than Angelus hates Liam.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Err, when the human is bitten by a vampire the demon enters and takes control of the human body, at that point the human becomes damned. As long as it remains a vampire it is one of the damned.

 

[Dogs of Winter]

After all the things Spike has done I don't think he can just do a few good deeds and voila he's redeemed. It should be a constant struggle to do what is right over a long period.

And does it make a difference if Spike is doing good because of Buffy or because he is hoping for the reward of redemption rather than because it is the right thing to do?

But then Angel did say that when you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. So if Spike didn't choose to become a vampire should he even be held responsible for what he did without a soul?

But I think part of seeking redemption is that you own the things you did even when you are not fully responsible for them

Let's remember that even an inexperienced teen witch recovering from head trauma in the hospital can still snatch souls from the ether. To me that implies the Higher Powers have little control (or at least don't care enough to control) the fate of souls.

I always thought it was more that the Higher Powers don't really care. They see humans as relatively insignificant or as playthings, so they may help them out but they are not going to put themselves out to do it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Even after Spike sacrificed himself at the end of Chosen, he complained when he got on Angel Season 5 that he did not get the hero's welcome into heaven that he might have expected - hell was about to swallow him up. The original story of Dracula was told from a strict Roman Catholic point of view and any person who was bitten three times was irredeemable. The lore in BtVS and AtS is somewhat different but it still has the "blame the victim" mentality.

 

[Stake fodder]

But I think part of seeking redemption is that you own the things you did even when you are not fully responsible for them

Even after Spike sacrificed himself at the end of Chosen, he complained when he got on Angel Season 5 that he did not get the hero's welcome into heaven that he might have expected - hell was about to swallow him up.

Yes, I think the irony of regaining a soul is that Angel and Spike feel guilt for things they did while soulless, thus proving that they now have a soul to feel guilt and remorse. I'm unclear if they were to die permanently, if their soul would be separated from the demon that still inhabits their body, with the demon going back to its hell dimension, while the soul is judged on its own merits. But the Buffyverse tends not to get that deep into theology!

I thought Spike was going to hell in AtS because Pavayne was sending him there, not because he necessarily deserved to go there. I don't think he went anywhere while trapped in the amulet.

I always thought it was more that the Higher Powers don't really care. They see humans as relatively insignificant or as playthings, so they may help them out but they are not going to put themselves out to do it.

I've come to believe the Powers that Be do things for their own purposes, which may happen to align with what benefits humans, but I agree that that's not what they care about.