I think saying that Spike doesn't apologize for stuff because he knows it won't make a difference is problematic at best. It doesn't matter if it makes a difference or not. It's the whole point of it. He still continued to treat Harmony like garbage and never once apologized to her for the way he acted, even when it clearly upset her. Maybe the apology wouldn't have meant very much, but at least it would have been something. It would have meant something to her. It would have showed that he felt remorse for his actions.
The point I was making is that Spike recognizing that endlessly self-flagellating won't make a lick of difference to the hundreds of people he's killed because they're
dead and don't care how bad their murderer feels about murdering them so it's ultimately pointless to fixate is how he's markedly different from Angel and he
should be. We don't need another souled vamp who behaves the exact same way or feels the exact same way Angel does on the same show, but just because Spike doesn't dwell on his past deeds to the extent it becomes a character trait doesn't mean he doesn't feel shame or remorse over them. When he's confronted with his past via Dana in
Damage he's clearly pained. It's one of the few callbacks we get to S7 Spike if not the
only one because ATS is not interested in Spike for that kind of story especially because they're already telling it with Angel.
I wasn't talking about Harmony or anyone who is still alive to apologize
to with the above, but re: Harmony, Spike
absolutely owes her an apology if not
several but for some reason, the writers thought getting a few 'laughs' in and continuing to treat her like a punchline was better than actually continuing on with Spike's established post-soul characterization and allowing her an ounce of dignity. I 100% agree with everyone about how Spike treats Harmony once he's souled being absolutely terrible. His little pep talk to her at the end of
Harm's Way isn't
nearly enough especially when there is a clear opening
to apologize when we see him register that Harmony is referring to him. It's bad writing, not because I don't like it (which I don't more for Harmony's sake) but because I don't buy S7+ Spike would behave the way he does with her in ATS5. Pre-S7, absolutely, it's completely in line with their whole dynamic, but post, no. There may as well be someone holding up a poster board mise en scène(s) that says "ITS FUNNY WHEN PEOPLE ARE MEAN TO HARMONY AND IT'S OK IF THEY ARE BC SHE'S SOULLESS AND EVIL AND WE NEED SPIKE TO BE S4 SPIKE BC S4 SPIKE IS MEAN AND FUNNY" scrawled on it. His behavior towards Harmony is where the regression of his character to fit into ATS is the most blatant imo and is probably the biggest problem I have with his characterization - pretty much everything else I can fanwank into place, but that I just have a hard time doing because it really seems like it's just there for 'laughs'. Either way, at the end of the day I'm not going to hold it eternally against his character for not apologizing for being an assh*le when the first time Angel sees Giles after S2, he apologizes for bothering him, but not for, you know, murdering his girlfriend and leaving her dead body for him to find in his bed and torturing him. There are plenty of things other souled characters do that are a lot worse than anything souled-Spike does
*cough*FaithLehane*cough* and yet somehow Spike is the eternal Bad Guy of the Buffyverse for some people.
Angel 'moping' in the sewers for years wasn't helping anybody, that's true, but it's how I would expect somebody in touch with their conscience to behave after feeling the deaths of hundreds of people at their hands- they shouldn't be able to shrug it off so easily and quickly, with a 'what can you do' attitude, I just don't see somebody who actually cares about what they've done behaving like that in that scenario.
Spike absolutely feels guilt and pain over what he's done and he
does care - he doesn't 'shrug it off easily' and that's not at all what I meant to imply. He's overtly in agony over what he's done in S7 and literally asks Buffy to kill him when he finds out he's not in control of himself and is in danger of hurting people again, and he actively
pushes back against her insistence that it wasn't him that did those things. He takes full responsibility and ownership for his actions when he was unsouled. Spike's version of Angel's time in the alley is his school basement period - they show him chasing rats to make that connection. He's going through the same waves of intense guilt with the added bonus of The First also messing with him, it's just truncated because A) he actually gets help and support and B) we are not going to watch a character be in this headspace for 100 years
especially a character who is not the lead. And it's only his time in the
basement that gets abbreviated. Spike is in constant pain in S7. His past deeds sit on his shoulders for the entirety of it - they're just not going to become a defining character trait for him once he comes back from the dead and joins ATS because that's Angel's deal. Spike already gets dinged for being too much like Angel and then he gets dinged for not being enough like Angel. They're completely different people and their journey's are similar but they're their
own. Spike doesn't really have to carry the baggage Angel does especially after his epiphanies in
Lies My Parents Told Me and
Destiny, because William was a decent person. He was turned into a monster twice over. He doesn't deny that that's what he was and that he did every single thing that he did, but he also seems to understand that that's not who he actually
is which makes moving forward now that he has complete control over his own choices easier for him. It doesn't mean the slate's wiped clean, he was still "Spike" for 100 years, he's way more a part of him now than William ever was so he's going mess up, but he knows enough about himself to know that he is not a bad person at his core and I think Angel struggles with that which is one of the things I find compelling about him and is another contrast between these two characters.
I also think a really important distinction to note comes from
Damage when Angel and Spike are talking in the infirmary:
SPIKE
The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.
ANGEL
I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.
I think the fact that Spike "never did look back at the victims" is key. It seems he was primarily about the physical and sensory aspects of vampirism, the thrill of the act of hunting and killing, the way it felt to do it and be good at it. He was a lion, they were gazelles, too bad for the gazelles, etc, etc. When it comes to Slayers, however, they're both lions. Angel's approach was different - the
cruelty was the point. It wasn't just about the kill, it was about the
suffering. It makes total sense that he would be haunted in a more intense way than Spike might be and that his past would sit on him in the particular way it does. I always felt when Spike's soul comes back, he's seeing his kills as
people for the first time and truly understanding what he took. They're not
Happy Meals with legs anymore. Angel has, in a way, more to answer for because his behavior as a demon went beyond an animalistic urge and the demons natural revelry in death and destruction. He saw his victims as people the whole time and personalized their deaths and/or torture accordingly. It wasn't just physical it was psychological, emotional, mental. Spike killed people. Angel(us) destroyed them.
Either way, it's not about one redemption arc being "better" than the other - that's a matter of what you (universal you) personally find interesting and what you're looking for in a story. I'm a lapsed Catholic so I 100% understand where Angel is coming from,
especially in terms of how evil his deeds in particular were, and I genuinely have a lot of sympathy and empathy for him, but there comes a point when it just starts to feel a bit masturbatory to me and I don't always have the patience for it. I feel sorrier for the people who were murdered and tortured than for the person who did the murdering and torturing myself, and my respect for Angel (which I do have) is not based on how badly he feels, but that he is ultimately
active in his redemption even when it's hard. In my mind, redemption
has to be active to actually matter. It's not just about feeling bad or wearing a metaphorical hair shirt until the end of time.
Re: Spike, once we get to ATS5, I personally don't need to see him perpetually guilt stricken to know that he feels guilt. I also don't need to hear him talk about or show how much pain he is in because of the things he did. S7 was his space to establish that as a character and I found it totally compelling and moving and it was enough for me to get the point that he feels guilt, he feels remorse, but he's not going to let his past be the albatross it is for Angel as he moves forward - he already learned from Buffy how not helpful that is. His ATS5 journey is about who he is going to be now that he is in complete control of himself and independent from Buffy and that mirrors the beginnings of Angel's own journey. His also begins focused on Buffy - his road to redemption starts with helping her just as Spike's does in S7. He learns how to be a hero from her and then he goes off on his own to attempt to redeem himself. The main difference with Spike there is that he doesn't start off in ATS5 with an intention to redeem himself. He has a few more immediate things on his plate to deal with upon his return first of all, but when those things are sorted and he really gets to begin, the way he does is different. The thing about Spike is even when he's protesting and growling
I'm not you, I don't need to redeem myself, piss off, he can't help but try to help. We see this in BTVS too. His better nature wins over more often than not, he's naturally inclined towards heroism especially when it's encouraged. He was always going to end up teaming up with Angel, he was always going to end up redeeming himself (or beginning to) whether the act of doing so was a driving motivation or not. He doesn't need guilt or a need
for redemption to drive his good deeds. It's, again, an interesting contrast between these two characters, and again, it doesn't mean one character or journey is
better than the other, they're just different and they should be
because they're different characters. Beyond that, Spike's been brought on to ATS to punch things up, to give the show a kick in the pants, to once again be the Cordelia to a degree, or at least the
Tact is just not saying true stuff version and more importantly to be a foil to Angel. He can't be those things if he's constantly embroiled in guilt and I think the path they have chosen for him - and the one he has chosen for himself - really works based on what we know of him as a character and for me at least that's the most important thing.
