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The real Reason Spike decided to get a soul?

ThatBuffyGuy

Townie
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Nov 24, 2017
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23
Hey everyone I'm new here. The general consensus among people (especially Spuffy shippers) is that Spike got a soul for Buffy. But I've been doing a re-watch of Buffy and I don't really think that's the case. I believe Spike got a soul for himself. The lore of the show is that vampires could love but they could love selfishly. During the re-watch I forgot all the twisted things Spike did in season 5 and season 6 due his obsession over Buffy. He chained her to a wall and also threatened to let Drusilla eat her if she didn't admit she had feelings for him. He made a Buffy sexbot. And then I'm pretty sure we all know about the events in Seeing Red which pushed him to get the soul. Angel and Spike both had interesting choices at the end of season 3 and season 6 respectively. Angel decided to leave (through the convincing of Joyce) since he realized Buffy could never actually have a healthy relationship with him. When he broke up with her listening to his words it was about her not about him. He left Sunnydale at the end of season 3 for her, so she could have the chance at the real relationship and not be stuck in what they had. Spike on the other hand who could've also decided that his and Buffy's relationship was way too toxic for either of them at that point to leave (especially after what happened in the bathroom), decided to go get a soul so they could be together. The difference in their choices I believe was the difference between them having a soul. Angel did the unselfish thing and left so Buffy could grow. Spike also did what he believed to be the right thing, but since it was a decision devoid of a soul, it was selfish since he mostly wanted to do it again for him. So he could have the pleasure of him and Buffy being together. So reiterating - I think Spike really got a soul back for himself. Otherwise that just breaks the logic of the show's own lore. Anyway that's just my opinion any thoughts?
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
Yeah actually the "Spike getting a soul for Buffy" is seeing part of the truth but not the whole thing imo. He says he wanted to "be the kind of man who would never..." as in he wants to be with Buffy, but mostly he wants to change into the person who could be with Buffy. So I think you're right. Hi by the way. Introduce yourself in the check in forum.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Conspicuous Only By Its Absence
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Black Thorn
I don't think he wanted the soul for Buffy; but I believe she inspired his quest to do so. His love obsession with her might have reminded him of Cecily, back when he was a sensitive poet. And he maybe some part of him wanted to be that man again...
 

HelloIAmHawt

The Master's Publicist
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31
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NJ
I agree, Spike's redemption arc is not purely his Buff-session. This is one of the reasons why, in the end, I count Spike as a "better man" than our brooding brown-haired Vamp over in LA. Spike's redemption, his soul--it was a choice, Angel's was a punishment (and that's probably why Spike adjusts relatively quickly to the changes vs. Angel's long-time rat eating fest. TBF, Angelus is way more evil than sans-soul Spike. Hell, Spike wasn't even evil enough to require an ensouled name change--he likes his happy meals on legs, so why let the Earth burn?).
 
Priceless
Priceless
We like to call him Spikelus when he doesn't have a soul :-)

SunnydaleGlitz

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266
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New York
Sineya
Interesting perspectives. I both agree and disagree. I think there's a distinction between the "selfish" kind of love that would drive a lover to attain a soul for the purpose of getting Buffy back in the end, as opposed to a different kind of inspired love where the aim is to improve the self based on a higher standard set by the loved object. To become a certain "kind of man" for whom Buffy might feel an attraction for is how he defines it. This doesn't imply any concerted plans to woo her back or ensnare her. "To be the kind of man...who would nev-" "...to be a kind of man..." His choice of words, albeit broken off, sum it up: he's defined at this point by what he doesn't want to be. He's driven by self loathing and a desperation for self improvement - he aspires to be something higher - closer to the kind of man Buffy would be capable of loving. That sharp clarity of self-recognition would not happen if driven by selfishness.

In short, I think Spike changed himself more for the sake of being able to live with himself. He was in love with Buffy and couldn't live with himself as he was. He wanted to have a soul so that he could feel less of a disconnect between his current identity and the ideal man he felt Buffy ought to be with. He didn't exactly go about selfishly after getting his soul back, trying to talk to Buffy and saying "hey look! I got my soul back! Date me now!"

She figured it out herself because he was babbling in a stupor.
 
Whoops, that got sent before I finished... lost a bunch of stuff I'd written. lol. Anyway hopefully you get my gist.
 
I don't think he wanted the soul for Buffy; but I believe she inspired his quest to do so. His love obsession with her might have reminded him of Cecily, back when he was a sensitive poet. And he maybe some part of him wanted to be that man again...
Agree, that's sort of how I see it too. Except I think his love for Buffy was real, whereas Cecily might have been an infatuation.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
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7,838
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Sineya
Let's see what Spike actually said to the demon:

SPIKE
Yeah. I seek you.

VOICE
Something about a woman. The slayer-

Now Spike's expression darkens. Anger rising.

SPIKE
Thinks she's better than me. Ever
since I got this bleeding chip in my
head, I haven't been right.
Everything's gone to hell-

VOICE
And you want to return. To your
former self...

SPIKE
Yeah.

The voice laughs darkly.

SPIKE (cont'd)
What?

VOICE
Look what she's reduced you to.

SPIKE
It's this bloody chip, not-

VOICE
(angrier now)
You were a legendary dark warrior -
and you let yourself be castrated.
Now you have the audacity to crawl in
here and demand restoration?

SPIKE
I'm still a warrior-

VOICE
You're a pathetic excuse for a demon-

SPIKE
Yeah? I'll show you who's pathetic.
Give me your best shot, Lurky.

VOICE
You'd never endure the trials
required to grant your request-

SPIKE
Do your worst. But when I win, I
want what I came here for.
(darkly)
Bitch is going to see a change.

Spike wanted to return to his former self but he was never a vampire with a soul. Spike complains about the chip, not about not having a soul. And "Bitch is going to see a change" does not sound like someone who wants to evolve into a better man. He sounds like he was happy before the chip and wanted it gone. He wanted his sense of shame to be gone but not by evolving into a vampire with a soul. He wanted to go back to the way things were when we first saw him in Season 2 without a soul. The demon double-crossed him and gave him a soul because he thought Spike was a pathetic excuse for a demon, castrated by his reaction to a slayer. This is the only "real reason" in play - the demon made a choice for Spike that was against what Spike wanted.
 

GoSpuffy

Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
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Black Thorn
But the clues are there, just hidden because Joss wanted to do a misdirect. When lurky says you were a legendary dark warrior Spike replies I'm still a warrior leaving out the word dark. Also later spike and lurky are talking and they make it clear they were talking off screen and Spike knows exactly what he is getting.
 

Dora

Scooby
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56
What! really! they are talking off screen..... how do you know it was about his soul could have been about gardening...
SPIKE , so you will give me what I want .MAKE ME THE MAN I WAS..... so Buffy can get what she deserves.... as Ethan Reigns points out Spike was never a souled vampire simple
If he wanted his soul for Buffy why at anytime previous did he not have mentioned it ? especially to Willow , she had reinstated soul's before ?
Lurky says legendary dark warrior and you let yourself be castrated....... he is talking about the chip , nothing to do with Buffy
In lots of ways it is so much more wrong he tried to RAPE Buffy when that did not work instead of getting out of her life and leaving her alone he pops off and gets his soul so he has another chance of getting in her pants, not once does he say he is sorry and ask forgiveness show remorse no its all about what Spike wants.... the demon gave Spike his soul not once did he ask for it ....
Then he lies to Buffy about getting his soul for her .......... of course Whedon would not alter things , lie or cheat...... about anything....
 

Dora

Scooby
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Please remember to discuss this topic calmly and respectfully.

Sorry Go Spuffy ..... I was harsh.... but surely you cannot surmise what is being said off screen?
 
The odds of it being about gardening are very slim. There wasn't much flora and fauna action happening in that cave from what I recall.

Made me laugh........ very good
 

GoSpuffy

Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
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Black Thorn
SPIKE stands alone in pitch blackness, his shirt stripped from him, only pants and barefoot. He moves about anxiously, like a panther. The DEMONIC VOICE from episode 20 speaks to him.

VOICE
You understand, then.

SPIKE
Yeah yeah - it's not like you
haven't been clear about it, oh
great mysterious one.
(bored)
This is a test. I don't get what
I want unless I pass said test.
That about the size and shape?

VOICE
Yes.

The conversation above shows that Spike clearly understood lurky' terms. The writers say this event was written as a misdirect and that Spike went for his soul. Joss says spike went for his soul. The scripts in S7 say he Went for his soul. The comics say he went for his soul. To believe otherwise doesn't make sense.
 

SunnydaleGlitz

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Sineya
Great points GoSpuffy. I love that there's a discussion about this because I do think Spike's love for Buffy is really comparable to the classics - if not too much of a stretch, maybe even Petrarchan conventions of love.

I think it's been fairly well established that Spike went in search of his soul, of his own volition. He was mocked by the demon for how far he'd come from his original evil instincts. I don't want to counter different interpretations though - it's a creative show so it's legitimate to interpret it in whichever way. This is Buffy, and endlessly complex! :)

I think it's useful to keep in mind though that Spike is going to be, SPIKE. He has a certain delivery consistent throughout the show. (It's how his persona's been carved.) "Bitch is going to see a change" doesn't necessarily mean he's plotting revenge on Buffy, or anything negative. I think Joss meant it to convey his struggle -- reconciling his past with his present love for Buffy. Like in OMWF he sings "I hope she fries, I'm free if that bitch dies. I better help her out." Similarly, I really can't imagine Spike saying aloud in halcyon, honeyed tones "I must change and become a worthy man for the Slayer. I will regain my soul so that I can be more deserving of her." It doesn't sound like him. "Thinks she's better than me..."/ "Bitch is going to see a change" sounds a lot more like him, and yet displays his awareness of how having a soul is clearly morally better and witnesses his shame at not having one ("thinks she's better than me"). My 2 cents!
 

Dora

Scooby
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Messages
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Great points GoSpuffy. I love that there's a discussion about this because I do think Spike's love for Buffy is really comparable to the classics - if not too much of a stretch, maybe even Petrarchan conventions of love.

I think it's been fairly well established that Spike went in search of his soul, of his own volition. He was mocked by the demon for how far he'd come from his original evil instincts. I don't want to counter different interpretations though - it's a creative show so it's legitimate to interpret it in whichever way. This is Buffy, and endlessly complex! :)

I think it's useful to keep in mind though that Spike is going to be, SPIKE. He has a certain delivery consistent throughout the show. (It's how his persona's been carved.) "Bitch is going to see a change" doesn't necessarily mean he's plotting revenge on Buffy, or anything negative. I think Joss meant it to convey his struggle -- reconciling his past with his present love for Buffy. Like in OMWF he sings "I hope she fries, I'm free if that bitch dies. I better help her out." Similarly, I really can't imagine Spike saying aloud in halcyon, honeyed tones "I must change and become a worthy man for the Slayer. I will regain my soul so that I can be more deserving of her." It doesn't sound like him. "Thinks she's better than me..."/ "Bitch is going to see a change" sounds a lot more like him, and yet displays his awareness of how having a soul is clearly morally better and witnesses his shame at not having one ("thinks she's better than me"). My 2 cents!

Of course its love , he as tried to rape her , refers to her as bitch ,
Spike ask's... why didn't I do it...... Says I can feel it squirming in mt head..... Clem Love?, Spike the chip gnawing bits and chunks... Spike again The chip Steel wire and silicon it wont let me be a monster quietly and I can't be a man , Im nothing....Spike gives a bitter sarcastic laugh , his grin turns nasty if you make them....
Obviously a man in love on he way to get a soul for the woman he loves.... of course he would say the bitch is going to see a change he is a evil selfish vampire, what would have happened if he did get his chip out ,we know when he thought it had stopped working he tried to kill straight away!
Spike never wanted his soul the demon gave him his soul....... and Spike being Spike lied to Buffy about getting his soul and had no remorse of what he had done
To quote James Masters at the 20th reunion..... Spike is evil and you don't what evil in your life
 

SunnydaleGlitz

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Sineya
Lol, I guess we can agree to interpret Spike's intentions in different ways. Not saying you're wrong or I'm right... Just that we agree to see him in a different way. The rape scene was super disturbing to me also, don't get me wrong. But I keep reminding myself that it's basis was allegorical, as is much of everything else in the show.

On a separate note, maybe that's why I'm drawn into relationships that spiral slightly out of control and get too intense. Hmm.
 

Dora

Scooby
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Lol, I guess we can agree to interpret Spike's intentions in different ways. Not saying you're wrong or I'm right... Just that we agree to see him in a different way. The rape scene was super disturbing to me also, don't get me wrong. But I keep reminding myself that it's basis was allegorical, as is much of everything else in the show.

On a separate note, maybe that's why I'm drawn into relationships that spiral slightly out of control and get too intense. Hmm.

Drawn to relationships that Spiral slightly out of control ......Mmmm..... have you asked the Mods if they have have Spike's phone number! he seems your type .......
 

Slayrunt

Oh ho! Aren’t you Mr. Dicey Semantics?
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192
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i think im stepping on an explosive posting here, but gonna give my 2 cents anyway.
im in two minds about this. i think as we all know in the buffy universe vampires are shown to show feelings of love but that love is selfish ... so i do think spike knew the soul would get him buffy and that was his motivation.
however he did have the affects of the chip going on... the impacts of the chip -other then his inability to hurt innocents- were never clear to me.. did it alter his brain more then we thought or was he just able to think more about things because his initial reaction to be violent and aggressive were taken away. but then again was he even capable of such thoughts without a soul?
but i do genuinely believe being soulless you are incapable of a completely genuine love. but again, vampires still have remnants of who they were as people and William was sweet and kind and i do believe spike has these qualities just not so genuine without the soul.
im gonna stop this is gonna spiral.
 
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