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Was Tara bit selfish to move out when she could see both Buffy and Willow were not at there best mental state?.

garfan

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Alright. I apologize if you took it personally. I still disagree with your point. I find it unreasonable to just bring back a dead slayer indefinitely as a way to deal with their supernatural problems when there is plethora of other options available. You said that it’s not Willow and company’s job to be a reformed murderers shrink, but that it is their job to engage in the supernatural. Faith is not just a reformed murderer. She is supernatural, and a slayer. Therefore, engaging with her is their job. If they are so concerned with the dangers of living in Sunnydale that they are desperate enough to literally upend the laws of nature and bring back the dead, then it’s justified to at least try other options first. But we aren’t shown that, and there doesn’t even seem to be a discussion of it. My point is that there is no greater good reasoning for Buffy’s resurrection, it was done purely because Willow realized she had the power and will to do it, so she did because she missed her friend. Understandable motives sure. But certainly not altruistic.

Also, on the second point, there was acknowledgment from Tara in season 5 that what she did was stupid. She apologized and explained her reasoning in the same episode. What other behavior and judge of people is there that is terrible in season 5? Getting brain sucked by Glory? Anyway I’m not even a huge Tara fan or Willow hater. I’m just not a big fan of season 6 and I think Willow and Xanders story arcs were done a big disservice and Buffy was treated terribly and the season as a whole was faulty. 🤷🏻‍♀️

well, I wasn't really offended. And season sux was terrible all around

I was not on Tara's side with her late season 5 arguments with Willow either, but that wasn't really what I was talking about. Her actions in Family are with her knowing the various Scoobies for close to a year, so that's her being a terrible judge of the people she's been closest to for a while.

And you talk about upending the laws of nature, but nothing about the Buffyverse suggested it was a reality where that kind of stuff should really be respected. I mean the bad guy resurrect the dead failure often and it costs individuals not reality itself. How is creating a person that different from resurrecting one? If Willow could have recreated the spell that created Dawn, and pulled Buffy's soul out of the afterlife with like a variation of the spells that give vampires their's would that have worked without the problem?

Like prior to season six, the Buffyverse including Angel was one where I would expect the laws of nature to be classed with the manmade laws that sometimes gives the heroes problems. You examine them and decide whether the risk of breaking them is worth the reward and yeah there's consequences if you do, but there's also consequences if you don't.

And I feel like that perspective held through season 6, and maybe half of season 7, till they started building to empowering the Slayers. And suddenly I wonder if maybe that was a response to how many of the fans were rejecting the writers attempts at themes. Like "fine, you want the Scoobies to make the rules? They can make the rules."
 

DeepBlueJoy

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So the fact that Willow bringing Buffy back and thereby CAUSING the rise of THE FIRST EVIL does not suggest that perhaps dragging Buffy out off heaven (and leaving her to dig herself out of the ground) - none of this is problematic?

Just having to dig out of the dark coffin (no light, very little air) and grave - this alone is the kind of trauma that could break someone's mind.

Then she is back in the loud, crazy world - which is extra hard after being in a place of complete peace. A place she is dragged from against her will.

Then she is expected by Giles to support a child, be a parent to a traumatized child, maintain a household, AND PROTECT AND SAVE THE WORLD.

And these people expect her gratitude? I think I would wish them all dead. It is remarkable that she did not jump off the tower that same night.

"Is this hell?" she asks.

It is bad enough she was expected to serve as essentially a slave/child soldier beforehand without pay or any compensation. But post resurrection, the saviour of the planet (and of reality itself - had she not jumped - all realities would have bled together - so not just planet earth was saved) receives NOTHING. Except a life sentence of torture and hard labour.

Willow caused 2 potential apocalypses - the First *and* her own. Her behaviour leads her to murder, and then to almost ending life on earth directly.

Had she not brought Buffy back, most of what happened could have been avoided.

Willow raped Tara every time she mind wiped her then had sex with her. If you roofie someone and sleep with them that is rape. The fact she could not be convicted makes her crime worse. She wanted, took, had. She makes Faith look like an amateur.

Stealing Tara's memory alone is a vile act especially after her breain damage by Glory. And she could have damaged Tara.

She almost cost ALL of them their memories permanently b/c her reckless spells went wrong repeatedly.

If Buffy and Spike had not saved them from the first, Willow's willfulness would have allowed the first to rule the world.

Willow's behaviour is sociopathic and serves only herself.

The slaying was the responsibility of the council. They could have had Faith released.

Willow should not have acted. In my opinion, bringing Buffy back was a hateful act. It was an act of someone obsessed by power and probably by her fixation on Buffy. Willow wanted to resurrect someone back when she put a dangerous spell in the hands of a grieving child (Dawn). Even that child is wise enough to end the spell!
 

garfan

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I think it was bad writing that wasn't true to the characters.

And I feel that talking about Willow's actions the way you and others do either elevates Tara's actions to a bigger deal than they were and make Dawn's existence a crime against Buffy and the Scoobies or holds Willow to a different standard

the Slaying was the responsibility of the Council? Well their one representative left
 

DeepBlueJoy

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The councils action was criminal as was Giles. Yes it was awful writing but this is canon and sadly, Willow already showed sociopathic wilfulness with her 'my will be done' - just *considering* making her will supreme is a reckless act and she did it because her boyfriend left her!

Boyfriends leave college girls everyday! This does not give them the right to try dangerous acts just to feel better. Clearly she is not adult enough to wield power - especially dangerous and unstable power.

Pain is not an excuse - and everyone goes thru break ups. Willow needed to cry, eat some ice cream and get over it - and if not, go see a doctor or therapist. Playing Russian roulette with dangerous weapons is not an answer in any universe. We don't juggle armed explosives either.

I was widowed very young. So are many women (and some men) whose spouses were in the armed forces. You deal! You have no choice.

I did not burn the house of the man who hit the love of my life, though i daresay i would have loved something to make me feel better. I felt my life was ended.

I did not get drunk or high and drive - i did not do risky behaviour at all. Most people do not. When they do, they tend to end up in the psych ward or jail or the morgue.

Willow reacts to anything she does not like with reckless behaviour. The only thing that changes with is the scope of her action becomes more and more dangerous - and she KNOWS this.

She turns a bunch of students into animals or changed their genders, and she puts some in cages. She risked a whole club of people on a whim! Some were nasty but what she did is assault. The band went from male to female, who knows how she did it but it is not small magic or remotely safe.

If any had died, it would have been manslaughter or some kind of homicide. What if ahe had run out of power before putting them back?

Was she drunk on magic? Irrelevant.

Drunk drivers are also culpable when they hurt others. Some get chaged with homicide. Willow is deeply dangerous and she is power hungry. She has nuclear level power in her hands and she uses it capriciously and even against those she claims to love.

Magic is not a toy. They teach novice shooters not to point a rifle at anything they don't plan to kill. Magic is a much more dangerous weapon. One best handled with utmost care. Willow is an arrogant mess.

Even though the world of Buffy is different, there are still consequencea to action. It is basic themodynamics, basic physics. Actions ALWAYS have effects.
 
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garfan

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The councils action was criminal as was Giles. Yes it was awful writing but this is canon and sadly, Willow already showed sociopathic wilfulness with her 'my will be done' - just *considering* making her will supreme is a reckless act and she did it because her boyfriend left her!

Boyfriends leave college girls everyday! This does not give them the right to try dangerous acts just to feel better. Clearly she is not adult enough to wield power - especially dangerous and unstable power.

Pain is not an excuse - and everyone goes thru break ups. Willow needed to cry, eat some ice cream and get over it - and if not, go see a doctor or therapist. Playing Russian roulette with dangerous weapons is not an answer in any universe. We don't juggle armed explosives either.

I was widowed very young. So are many women (and some men) whose spouses were in the armed forces. You deal! You have no choice.

I did not burn the house of the man who hit the love of my life, though i daresay i would have loved something to make me feel better. I felt my life was ended.

I did not get drunk or high and drive - i did not do risky behaviour at all. Most people do not. When they do, they tend to end up in the psych ward or jail or the morgue.

Willow reacts to anything she does not like with reckless behaviour. The only thing that changes with is the scope of her action becomes more and more dangerous - and she KNOWS this.

She turns a bunch of students into animals or changed their genders, and she puts some in cages. She risked a whole club of people on a whim! Some were nasty but what she did is assault. The band went from male to female, who knows how she did it but it is not small magic or remotely safe.

If any had died, it would have been manslaughter or some kind of homicide. What if ahe had run out of power before putting them back?

Was she drunk on magic? Irrelevant.

Drunk drivers are also culpable when they hurt others. Some get chaged with homicide. Willow is deeply dangerous and she is power hungry. She has nuclear level power in her hands and she uses it capriciously and even against those she claims to love.

Magic is not a toy. They teach novice shooters not to point a rifle at anything they don't plan to kill. Magic is a much more dangerous weapon. One best handled with utmost care. Willow is an arrogant mess.

Even though the world of Buffy is different, there are still consequencea to action. It is basic themodynamics, basic physics. Actions ALWAYS have effects.

I'm sorry for your loss. But the Buffyverse is not the real world, and if the problems they have are not going to be limited to real world problems then the solutions should not be either. And magic is supposed to be more than just a weapon. Yes, actions have consequences. So does inaction.

If that is your answer to Willow's loss then I feel like Buffy and Angelus should have ended much quicker and Buffy was much more wrong. I'm not talking running away, cause there were multiple other extenuating circumstances. I'm talking not staking him weeks or months before, because Willow's spell is something that could go wrong, Angelus running around is something that will go wrong.

You're talking about Wrecked and Smashed. I consider them some of the worst episodes, because magic was only portrayed like that one other time in the series, just a few eps earlier, when Willow just created an engagement party for Xander and Anya.

The writers basically admitted Willow's arc was supposed to be about her going off the deep end for revenge, it was always going to be set off by her lover dying. The arrogance and then addiction arcs were just slapped in because power creep power seep had made her overshadow Buffy unless they were fighting something to big, they were not natural results of where her story was going
 

DeepBlueJoy

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As you point out, Willow had great power. She could have fought demons. She didn't. Instead she opened a doorway to the First Evil by tearing rhe veil between life and death.

One cannot claim the world is so different fom ours that morality and good judgment don't matter. Sorry but the fact of the stakes being higher and the danger of the weapons so much greater that judgment, restraint and morality matter *more*.

Humans have the power to obliterate our enemies. Big countries can flatten their adversaries and turn their countries to glass. But they don't.

Because the consequences are just too much. The choice isn't even always about heart or morality - it seldom is. It is a complex calculus - because the planet is an enormous interlocking machine.

Wise people understand they cannot afford to do every act they are capable of - and that is why we are all still here.

I also want to point out that the show *was* set in the real world - it may have had layers in addition to ours but it is clear that Buffy tried to reapect human law - and bore consequences of things like financial shortfalls. So the rules of our world do matter. Loving Willow does not absolve her of her crimes or her violations of her friends and strangers.

Whatever world we are in, actions and solutions MUST be proportional to the problems. We dont blow up a city to kill one murderer. We dont incinerate the planet bc our lover dies. We don't do dark magic to raise dead people FROM HEAVEN.
 
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Kendar

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As others have noted, the biggest problem with the resurrection is that we don't see ANY attempt to determine if Buffy is in a bad situation before they cast the spell. And this one does fall on the gang as a whole, although Willow apparently minimizes some of the preparations.
 

garfan

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As you point out, Willow had great power. She could have fought demons. She didn't. Instead she opened a doorway to the First Evil by tearing rhe veil between life and death.

One cannot claim the world is so different fom ours that morality and good judgment don't matter. Sorry but the fact of the stakes being higher and the danger of the weapons so much greater that judgment, restraint and morality matter *more*.

Humans have the power to obliterate our enemies. Big countries can flatten their adversaries and turn their countries to glass. But they don't.

Because the consequences are just too much. The choice isn't even always about heart or morality - it seldom is. It is a complex calculus - because the planet is an enormous interlocking machine.

Wise people understand they cannot afford to do every act they are capable of - and that is why we are all still here.

I also want to point out that the show *was* set in the real world - it may have had layers in addition to ours but it is clear that Buffy tried to reapect human law - and bore consequences of things like financial shortfalls. So the rules of our world do matter. Loving Willow does not absolve her of her crimes or her violations of her friends and strangers.

Whatever world we are in, actions and solutions MUST be proportional to the problems. We dont blow up a city to kill one murderer. We dont incinerate the planet bc our lover dies. We don't do dark magic to raise dead people FROM HEAVEN.
I would agree that Willow should have been able to kick as fighting demons. But Bargaining showed that as not the case. You can consider it more of the bad writing for the season, but I think it actually justified the actions.

And as for the rules of the world, the show certainly plays lip service to them, but I believe it also shows how easily the supernatural overwhelms them with Wilkins founding a town and staying in power for a century unnoticed, the Initiative getting their asses stomped by demons. Wolfram & Hart casually manipulating the legal system. And Buffy tried to play nice with the law, but when necessary they broke and entered, they stole, Willow committed cybercrimes.

Fundamentally I believe the world needed Buffy. I think her death in season 5 was the wrong move, from an in universe perspective and the way they did it in show from a writing perspective. So, as I believe Buffy needed to live, any action that brought her back is proportional to the problem of her being dead.

and honestly, Angel ended with the heroes bringing about an attacking army to a city they couldn't hope to defend on their own at the time, and it was presented as them being fully heroic again and a proud stand against evil, so what happened with the First seems pretty downgraded

I really wouldn't be surprised if Joss flip flopped on the moral message the show was trying to send based on audience backlash
 
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Stake fodder

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People say Giles selfish in leaving but at same time was Tara being selfish when she could see both Buffy and Willow were not in best headspace to be taking care of teenager.
The truth is that Willow was the one who should have left. She was the abuser, and her refusal to leave the house created the whole situation. Tara had no choice if she wanted to get away from Willow, which I think she absolutely needed to do. (Also, the writers wanted Willow, not Tara, in the thick of things there, obviously.)

It was unfortunate for Dawn to be left with Willow, but I think it's going too far to put that responsibility on Tara, when she was not Dawn's relative, and didn't even have legal authority to take Dawn away with her, even if she had been financially able to.

Tara actually was able to do more for Buffy (and Dawn) by being their friend OUTSIDE of Revello Drive. She became the one human Buffy was able to lean on and talk to. I don't think she could have been that (and likely been on the wrong side of Willow, Buffy's friend) had she stayed in the house. She was also able to be there for Dawn.
I agree. Buffy goes to Tara about investigating if she came back "wrong," not Willow. The very fact that Tara wasn't living with Buffy, and therefore not as personally entwined in her life, made Tara the easier one to confide in, I think.
 
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