Wesley and Virginia

[nightshade]

In Guise will be guise, Wesley pretends to be Angel, and then has sex with Virginia. They start a relationship afterwards but should this be classed as rape, as she didn't know it wasn't Angel she was sleeping with?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Of course not. Angel is a eunuch, as soon as she seduced Wesley, she would have known, whoever this man is, he's not Angel.

On a matter of lore, look, I have to imagine that if you belong to magical Mafia world, lying about your identity is standard first date material, no different than getting a haircut or makeover would be for us. This is a world of Magicks, of glamours, of tricks and illusions. A human pretending to be a vampire may just be charmingly quaint.

Per metaphor, rape is about the restriction of female agency, yes? Nothing about Virginia suggests she has such a problem. If she had a problem with Wes, or regretted having sex with him, she doesn't seem like the shrinking Violet type.

 

[Puppet]

Virginia has every right to be upset with Wesley for not telling her the truth, she has the right to feel betrayed, but I definitely don't think it counts as rape. Then again, I rarely see it the way other fans do and I think there is a lot less gray area in metaphoric rape/mind-rape than fans sometimes are willing to admit to.

 

[Priceless]

I don't think you can be said to have full agency if you don't know all the facts . . . but at the same time, who really knows anyone anyway? And Virginia liked the man she thought of as Angel, so . . . it's a tough one. 😕

 

[Spanky]

Yes, it's rape by deception. He essentially catfished her.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I took a quick look, courts are apparently strict on their interpretation of Rape by Deception. It seems limited to 1. You pretended to be the woman's husband or boyfriend in circumstances she could reasonably expect you to be, ie, you snuck into their bedroom (Aka the Leah bat Laban Gambit,) 2. Lies concerning the use of contraception, 3. Lies about STD, 4. Sex with a transexual who failed to report that fact. And a couple of Israeli cases that are really weird. In other words, I can't find any case of someone impersonating someone else who didn't have a privileged relationship with the woman being charged with rape for the lie, but fraud may have been charged. And again, I think she fell for Wesley, not Wesley's bad impersonation of Angel.

 

[Spanky]

Consent means a freely given, knowledgeable and informed agreement. She had an agreement to have sex with whom she thought was Angel, but was deceived. The knowledge and information to properly give consent was withheld from her. Each state is different but for many it can be considered rape by deception if you impersonate someone. But the whole scenario was played for a laugh, so it was okay.

 

[thrasherpix]

I might change my mind if I saw the episode, but my immediate reaction is no. She was sleeping with HIM because of what he did and he was there, not because she thought he was Angel, therefore while he deceived her, he did not commit rape by deception.

Rape by deception would be if Wesley used a glamor to look like Gunn to have sex with Fred while she was dating Gunn, and Fred never would've had sex outside the relationship otherwise (that is Wesley turned a "no" into a "yes" by fooling Fred into thinking he was her lover Gunn). I dont' see this as being applicable to Virginia, especially with the extreme circumstances that went with it. That is he didn't even want to fool her, he was saving his own life and that of Cordelia, rather than to get into Virginia's pants.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

He did not lie in order to get sex. It was deceptive and therefore morally gray, but she had sex with the man she desired.

His deception was unrelated. In fact he was tryung to save her and wasnt he kidnapped and brought there?

If an undercover operative ends up sleeping with someone while using a fake name, but did not have sex for info i dont think it is rape, though lying to someone if they care is a crappy act.

If he promises her a million bucks and life with a major drug lord that might be different.

This situation was quite different.

Wes was not trying to get anything from her or promise her anything, so she was not scammed into sex.

Also, as soon as they kissed she had to know he was human. He was warm! She was deceiving dear old dad, she was not deceived.

She did not treat Wes well in their relationship, however. Maybe she had a resentment?

 

[Spanky]

He did not lie in order to get sex. It was deceptive and therefore morally gray, but she had sex with the man she desired.

He did lie though. If he told the truth he would never had been there and had the opportunity to have sex with her. While his lie was not directly for and/or related to sex, the only way she would have had sex with him was because of the lie. In order to have sex with her he had to lie and present himself as someone else. Again, he didn't set out to do so, but it happened nonetheless, and he had ample time to tell her the truth but didn't. He maintained the deception in that moment, especially to, have sex.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

@Spanky it is a mess.

 

[Antho]

I prefer to think that Virginia fall in love with Wesley. She had sex with him because she liked his personnality, manners, the person who he is. He doesn’t lie about this sentiment for her. That’s more important to me. And he pretends to be Angel because he was a mission to save her. I don’t know I have trouble calling that “rape”. But I make me realize how the society evolves. Twenty years ago, no one thought one second at this, and now here we are.

 

[Spanky]

Twenty years ago, no one thought one second at this, and now here we are.

Some people did, but like I said earlier it was played off as a joke and people were encouraged to look past it. If the show wasn't a fantasy I think it would have been harder to ignore.

 

[Antho]

Some people did, but like I said earlier it was played off as a joke and people were encouraged to look past it. If the show wasn't a fantasy I think it would have been harder to ignore.

A lot of things that is on Buffy wouldn’t be there if the show aired nowadays

 

[Spanky]

A lot of things that is on Buffy wouldn’t be there if the show aired nowadays

You can say that about many shows. Just look at Archie Bunker for pete's sake. They'd be burned alive (metaphorically speaking) if they tried to make that show now.

 

[Antho]

You can say that about many shows. Just look at Archie Bunker for pete's sake. They'd be burned alive (metaphorically speaking) if they tried to make that show now.

Isn’t that a bit sad ? I guess in one way we can call that “evolution” but isn’t there somewhere a regression ?

 

[Spanky]

Isn’t that a bit sad ? I guess in one way we can call that “evolution” but isn’t there somewhere a regression ?

What we consider entertainment changes. Cock and dog fights used to be acceptable forms of entertainment. I wouldn't really lament it as regression that it's no longer viewed as such, save for fringe groups of people.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Life is change. In Shakespeare's time, they married barely teenage people. Women could not act in any of his plays. Men played all the roles. Women mostly could not own property or determine their own lives either. People were enslaved routinely, and no one considered it an issue.

I would not look back in longing. But looking back can be instructive. We look back, we look forward, we live in the present. We grow.

As they say 'take the best, leave the rest'. Learn from the good AND the mistakes. Try not to repeat the mistakes.