"Why the Spike hate?" Continued

Taaroko · Jan 11, 2011

This is a continuation of zobothehobo's "Why the Spike hate" thread, obviously. I know she was more interested in understanding why some people don't like Spike than in sparking debates over the answers given, but I seriously doubt that debates aren't going to happen anyway, and that's fine with me. This is the only forum I'm in where I can actually discuss the matter with Spike fans, so I find it all very fascinating.

The first thread had closed by the time I hit "preview post", and it at ate my comment, and I was annoyed. I have since retyped it (but due to the extra time involved there, I might have ended up coming across as more irritable than I originally meant to, and I apologize in advance if that's the case).

So here we go again. My reply is in response to this post by StarSlayer.

In s2, the Judge points out, not only in Spike, but in Drusilla that there's humanity in them because they have affection for each other. They love each other. Dru reiterates this idea in "Crush." Buffy says vampires can't love without a soul. That is her whole belief because of her relationship with Angel. However, as Dru says, soulless vampires can love "quite well, if not wisely." Buffy also knew that Spike loved her when he was soulless (in his own twisted way) because she mentions it in "Conversations with Dead People." She also tells Spike that he faced "the monster inside him" and fought back. The human aspect of Spike and his ability to love is not coming out of left field. It based upon what the show offers.

Yeah, and the Judge also burned Dalton just for his appreciation for literature. His definition of “humanity” is not reliable. Drusilla and Spike are also not reliable authorities on the subject, being soulless and therefore unable to understand the nature of selfless human love. Darla is the Buffyverse’s best authority on the subject, considering the number of times she has gone from soulful to soulless. In “Lullaby”, she can’t bear to let Connor be born, because she knows that once his soul isn’t in her anymore, she won’t be able to love him or even remember loving him. I’m definitely taking her word for it over Spike’s, Drusilla’s, and even Buffy’s.

I don't get this because Spike has shown that he can be selfless without a soul. He takes a beating from Glory in order to protect Dawn and Buffy. When he told Buffy (thinking she was the Buffybot) as to why Glory couldn't find out, he said it was because he couldn't bear to see Buffy in so much pain if anything happened to Dawn. If Spike was so selfish, wouldn't he have said, "Glory cannot never find out Dawn is the key because then Buffy would never love me or want to be with me." But, he didn't. His intentions and actions were completely selfless at that point.

I completely agree with Icarium's reply in the previous thread. Any vampire worth his fangs should be able to tell a robot from a human being in a heartbeat. He would have been able to hear her heart beating and smell her blood before she even walked into his crypt. And he did know when he was protecting Dawn from Glory that doing so was his only option. If he had told Glory, she would have killed him, and if she hadn’t, Buffy would have. By not telling Glory, he had a chance to make it out alive, with the bonus of having done something Buffy would appreciate very much.

Also, if Spike was so selfish without a soul, why stay with Dawn and the Scoobies after Buffy died? But, he made a promise to Buffy that he would protect Dawn. That's hardly selfish in my eyes, especially since Buffy died and Spike knew he couldn't be with Buffy.

Because telling himself he’s doing it for Dawn to keep his promise for Buffy suits his romantic sensibilities much better than admitting it’s necessary for self-preservation. The Scoobies are the only ones who won’t kill him, and they give him money for blood when he needs it. The best way to keep that going is for him to continue not doing things to make them reconsider their policy on not killing him.

The problem is that Spike is the only vampire without a soul we see in the Buffyverse try to be good. Plus, seeing Spike as the possible exception isn't throwing out the rules of the Buffyverse. IMO, it's actually understanding them more. In s1, we learn that once humans are sired, a demon takes over their body. I know not many people like the Angel/Spike comparisons, but it's the only way for me to explain my thoughts. When Angel was sired and became Angelus, there was no humanity in him. The Judge points this out in s2. However, when Spike (even Dru) were sired, there was still some humanity left in them (this human side), again as the Judge mentions in s2. So, in that sense, we learned something new about the process of humans being sired into vampires. They quite possibly can retain some humanity after being sired.

Pretty sure we also saw Harmony trying to be good, and we all know how well that worked out. And, as I said before, the Judge’s definition of humanity is really too broad to use in Spike’s defense. I mean, he doesn’t only include a neutral thing like Dalton’s appreciation for literature under his “humanity” umbrella, but something decidedly selfish: jealousy.

Besides, Spike poked the Judge and kept his finger on him for a good five seconds without so much as flinching. If he really possessed enough humanity to truly change for the better, you’d think he would have at least gotten a blister. I maintain, therefore, that when humans are sired, the only things they keep from who they were are their minds and their vices. All capacity for purely-intentioned goodness and selfless love leaves with the soul.

The only vampire in the 'verse with an even remotely plausible justification for having that kind of humanity is Lawson, who was sired by a vampire with a soul. And yet all that did to him was take away the pleasure vampires usually get from committing acts of evil and violence. He still committed them. And he actually opens up a whole new intriguing train of thought, but it'd be too much of a tangent to go into here. Might post it in a different thread when I have time.

Spike is later the only vampire we see get a chip in his head that prevents from attacking humans. He is the exception here because it has never been established what a chip in a vampire's brain can do to them. When Dru comes back in "Crush," she tells him that he is actually a "bad dog," and not even a chip/science/electricity can prevent him from killing. Spike agrees and mentions to Harmony that he's back. The evil Spike that slaughtered half of Europe is back. Yet, when we get to the scene at the Bronze and Dru kills someone for Spike to drink, he's hesitant. Does he really want to go back to this lifestyle that he thought he wanted or does he really want to try and change? He gives into temptation tough and drinks the already dead person. I think this shows that even with the chip in his head, Spike could have gone back to Dru and killed others.

What’s the fun if Dru has to kill everything for him? That would only serve to make him feel belittled, defective, and completely dependent on her. At least when he’s with the Scoobies’, he can kill as much as he wants, provided that he’s killing demons. Considering his well-established love of violence, the choice he makes is obvious, really. And not borne out of the nonexistent goodness of his heart.

However, there's another twist in this episode. Spike wants to prove his love to Buffy by killing Drusilla. Of course, this isn't the right way to go about it, but what else can you expect from a soulless vampire who fell in love with a slayer? However, the fact that Spike was willing to choose Buffy over Dru, which included going back to that life of killing (even with the chip), says a lot to me about his identity and that he is an exception in the Buffyverse.

And yet the way he went about it proves to me that he is not an exception at all.

IMO, having a soul means having a conscience and having the ability to control your inner demons. It's quite poetic actually because isn't that what a conscience does? It helps you choose the path of right and wrong and when you feel guilty, you know you made the wrong choice. The same thing with a soul. Spike knew he couldn't be completely good without a soul because he had to control his demon. Furthermore, Buffy told him time and again that she couldn't love him because he didn't have a soul. So, it's only natural Spike would want to get a soul. He wanted to become the man Buffy deserved, while at the same time, control the demon literally inside him. I think Wesley explains this idea beautifully in AtS when he says (to Angel no less), "We know you're a man with a demon inside, not the other way around."

Yes, Angel is a man with a demon inside. So is soulful Spike. Because they have souls. The souls are who they are, not what they are. Soulless vampires, however *are* demons. Human-shaped ones with human memories and minds, yes, but they *are* demons nonetheless. Only creatures with souls can have figurative “inner” demons.

But wasn't it true to some extent? I think that was the point of the scene. "Lies my parents told me." For slayers, the mission is what matters. Even slayers who have children, their slayer duties are priority. It's sad and unfortunate, but a slayer's focus has to be on the mission. And since I'm on the subject of Spike/Robin/Nikki, I don't see it cruel that Spike wore Nikki's jacket even when he had a soul. Buffy specifically told Spike that she wanted the Spike that was dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill her when they first met. Well, that Spike wore a long, leather coat. It was part of his identity. If Buffy wanted that Spike to help her in her war, then Spike was going to "get it done." And he needed his second skin to make that happen.

Just because Nikki’s mission took priority doesn't mean she didn't love her son. She just knew that the mission was bigger than the two of them, much like other characters who sacrifice their own happiness and love for their mission. That doesn't make their love any less strong or real. And Spike doesn’t need his coat to be *that* Spike. It wouldn’t have been hard to procure a similar one that didn’t have the horrific associations but still gave him the classic Spike look.

Back up a second. Who provoked who? Angel said Buffy could never really love Spike because he wasn't Angel. Both were pissed off at each other and both knew how to get under the other's skin. So, to piss off Angel, he said, "I guess she was thinking all about you, all those times I was putting it to her." I don't think it undermines it one bit because Spike was upset at Angel and knew how to provoke him back.

I don’t care who started it. Spike spent season seven being sorry for what he put Buffy through in season six, and trying to earn forgiveness. If he really meant it and really loves her, then season six should not be something he can crudely shove in someone else’s face, no matter the provocation. Ever.

And I don't see it was disrespectful that Spike never wanted to contact Buffy to tell her he was alive. Not many fans like it, but I think he wanted to actually respect what they did have and not ruin it.

Oh, so he was afraid that he would ruin what they had if he tried to rekindle it.

WakingNightmare · Jan 11, 2011

Taaroko said:
I completely agree with Icarium's reply in the previous thread. Any vampire worth his fangs should be able to tell a robot from a human being in a heartbeat. He would have been able to hear her heart beating and smell her blood before she even walked into his crypt. And he did know when he was protecting Dawn from Glory that doing so was his only option. If he had told Glory, she would have killed him, and if she hadn't, Buffy would have. By not telling Glory, he had a chance to make it out alive, with the bonus of having done something Buffy would appreciate very much.

He'd just been tortured by a hellgod. I think it's safe to say his vampire senses were more than a little of and not to be trusted.

InsaneMystic · Jan 11, 2011

Taaroko said:
Drusilla and Spike are also not reliable authorities on the subject, being soulless and therefore unable to understand the nature of selfless human love. Darla is the Buffyverse's best authority on the subject, considering the number of times she has gone from soulful to soulless. In "Lullaby", she can't bear to let Connor be born, because she knows that once his soul isn't in her anymore, she won't be able to love him or even remember loving him. I'm definitely taking her word for it over Spike's, Drusilla's, and even Buffy's.

Another one of the rare moments I agree with you about something Spikeish. 🙂 I wholeheartedly agree that you can't love without a soul, even though you can like people, care about them, and mistake that for love. (That latter mistake gets made by souled humans IRL a lot, too, btw. 😉)

To me too, Darla is indeed the perfect authority on this question, moreso than any other vampire in the Buffyverse, souled or unsouled.

StarSlayer · Jan 11, 2011

Taaroko said:
Yeah, and the Judge also burned Dalton just for his appreciation for literature. His definition of “humanity” is not reliable. Drusilla and Spike are also not reliable authorities on the subject, being soulless and therefore unable to understand the nature of selfless human love. Darla is the Buffyverse’s best authority on the subject, considering the number of times she has gone from soulful to soulless. In “Lullaby”, she can’t bear to let Connor be born, because she knows that once his soul isn’t in her anymore, she won’t be able to love him or even remember loving him. I’m definitely taking her word for it over Spike’s, Drusilla’s, and even Buffy’s.

Honestly, that's your opinion. I see the Judge as very reliable. You can't say Darla is the ultimate authority on the matter because she goes through a different journey than Angel, Spike, Dru, Harmony, whoever. Her journey is just as exceptional as Spike's. So, we'll agree to disagree here. 🙂

I completely agree with Icarium's reply in the previous thread. Any vampire worth his fangs should be able to tell a robot from a human being in a heartbeat. He would have been able to hear her heart beating and smell her blood before she even walked into his crypt. And he did know when he was protecting Dawn from Glory that doing so was his only option. If he had told Glory, she would have killed him, and if she hadn’t, Buffy would have. By not telling Glory, he had a chance to make it out alive, with the bonus of having done something Buffy would appreciate very much.

Spike was pretty beat up at that point, even Xander saw that. His senses could have been all messed up for all we know, but the bottom-line is (as I said previously) Spike didn't know it was Buffy until she kissed him. His reaction proves it. In regards to Spike taking a beating from Glory, again. That's your opinion on how you see the scene. I don't see it that way at all.

Because telling himself he’s doing it for Dawn to keep his promise for Buffy suits his romantic sensibilities much better than admitting it’s necessary for self-preservation. The Scoobies are the only ones who won’t kill him, and they give him money for blood when he needs it. The best way to keep that going is for him to continue not doing things to make them reconsider their policy on not killing him.

Again, that's your opinion, which is based on your hatred for the character. In "After-Life," Spike tells Buffy, and he is extremely nervous trying to get out what he wants to say, but he says, "I do remember what you said. To protect her." He felt guilty over not saving Dawn because it led to Buffy jumping and sacrificing herself. Every night, he wanted to go back to that moment and save her. "Every night I save you." You can call it selfish, but myself and many others do not see it that way because of the guilt he felt.

Pretty sure we also saw Harmony trying to be good, and we all know how well that worked out.

Yeah, Harmony's journey is exactly like Spike's journey. 🙄 She didn't have a chip in her head. As I mentioned before, each vampire had a different journey. Harmony did try to be good without a soul, but she didn't have a chip in head telling her she couldn't be a monster.

Besides, Spike poked the Judge and kept his finger on him for a good five seconds without so much as flinching. If he really possessed enough humanity to truly change for the better, you’d think he would have at least gotten a blister. I maintain, therefore, that when humans are sired, the only things they keep from who they were are their minds and their vices. All capacity for purely-intentioned goodness and selfless love leaves with the soul.

And I maintain what I said. We'll agree to disagree here. 🙂

The only vampire in the 'verse with an even remotely plausible justification for having that kind of humanity is Lawson, who was sired by a vampire with a soul. And yet all that did to him was take away the pleasure vampires usually get from committing acts of evil and violence. He still committed them. And he actually opens up a whole new intriguing train of thought, but it'd be too much of a tangent to go into here. Might post it in a different thread when I have time.

Again, each vampire goes through their own journey, so thanks for proving my point. 😉

What’s the fun if Dru has to kill everything for him? That would only serve to make him feel belittled, defective, and completely dependent on her. At least when he’s with the Scoobies’, he can kill as much as he wants, provided that he’s killing demons. Considering his well-established love of violence, the choice he makes is obvious, really. And not borne out of the nonexistent goodness of his heart.

Yes, it totally would have made Spike dependable on Dru, but what other option was there if he really wanted to go back to that lifestyle of drinking human blood? Again, it's your opinion that it wasn't out of his willingness to want to change.

And yet the way he went about it proves to me that he is not an exception at all.

Again, your opinion.

Yes, Angel is a man with a demon inside. So is soulful Spike. Because they have souls. The souls are who they are, not what they are. Soulless vampires, however *are* demons. Human-shaped ones with human memories and minds, yes, but they *are* demons nonetheless. Only creatures with souls can have figurative “inner” demons.

IMO, soulless vampires are demons with a human inside and I've stated why I think that. It's also the 180 of what Wesley said.

Just because Nikki’s mission took priority doesn't mean she didn't love her son. She just knew that the mission was bigger than the two of them, much like other characters who sacrifice their own happiness and love for their mission. That doesn't make their love any less strong or real. And Spike doesn’t need his coat to be *that* Spike. It wouldn’t have been hard to procure a similar one that didn’t have the horrific associations but still gave him the classic Spike look.

Like I said before, whether or not Spike knew Nikki didn't love Robin wasn't the point of the scene. It was telling Robin the harsh truth that slayers put the mission first in life. And sure. Spike doesn't really need his coat to be that Spike (as we saw in AtS), but at that point in time, Buffy had enough with his moping. She wanted that Spike, and Spike getting his coat was the quick way to do it (or at least feel like that Spike again).

I don’t care who started it. Spike spent season seven being sorry for what he put Buffy through in season six, and trying to earn forgiveness. If he really meant it and really loves her, then season six should not be something he can crudely shove in someone else’s face, no matter the provocation. Ever.

And I don't think he crudely shoved it in Angel's face when Angel thinks Buffy is the only person she will ever love. "That's why Buffy could never love you because you weren't me." I love both Angel and Spike, but both said bad things about their relationship with Buffy.

Oh, so he was afraid that he would ruin what they had if he tried to rekindle it.

IMO, yes I think he was. And we can debate all these topics till the cows come home, so I think we have to agree to disagree. I know whatever I say won't make you like Spike or understand why I like him. 🙂

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

Taaroko agrees: Oh, I don't know. Miss Kitty convinced me to at least try for some sympathy for William next time I get to FFL. I don't enjoy hating characters, but a discussion like this tends to bring to mind everything I dislike about them and then solidify it.

That'd be great if you could watch FFL and try to see where the sympathy for Spike is coming from! But discussions like these just make my blood boil and want me to defend the characters I love even more based on how I see the show. 🙂 Except Riley cause I hate him with a fiery passion, lol! 😀

prophecygrrl · Jan 11, 2011

I feel like a lot of this conversation is getting into the vampire lore of the Buffyverse rather than Spike himself. So. I'm not responding to the specifically Spike parts here, since I really think that part is more subjective than anything else.

My take on the vamp lore is that vampires can retain some humanity after being turned. For one, I wouldn't actually go so far as to say they're on a completely separate plane from humans; one can argue that as demons and monsters (whose appearance as human is definitely more than just a coincidence...), they are meant to retain the worst parts of humanity: jealousy, selfishness, hate, and so on. It makes sense to me that to some extent, they can retain other aspects of humanity as well. Including the ability to love, if not necessarily the ability to love unselfishly. I'm not saying they're humans, just that I don't think Spike's debatable ability to love is "going against the vamp lore of the Buffyverse".

It is impossible for him to truly change for the better at any deeper level than the surface because HE DOESN'T HAVE A SOUL. And would it really be better if he could? That would completely undermine all of the vamp lore of the Buffyverse. Souls=capacity for selflessness and goodness. Soulless demon=inherently evil.

^ From a post by Taaroko from the first Why Spike Hate thread 🙂

I agree that it is impossible for him to change completely when he doesn't have a soul. I believe that was the message of the attempted rape in Seeing Red? When Miss Kitty made the point that Spike tried to be good without a soul, I don't believe she was trying to say that he completely succeeded. Just that he did try, he did succeed a few times, and that this shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
So yeah. Ultimately, he couldn't be entirely good without a soul. Hence the soul-getting. 😀

I don't really subscribe to the whole soul/soulless dichotomy... A soul is never clearly defined in the Buffyverse, but from what we see of it, it just acts as a conscience.
I'd also just say that all this soul business is REALLY murky territory. Stating the obvious here lol, but in this case it really is a bit...useless (for lack of a better word, sorry) to debate all the limitations or whatever about souls. I mean, we still don't even know whether souls are something uniquely human (or formerly human) when we get (good) demons fighting on Angel's team in LA, we get evil humans, and, hey, we get Spike. We still don't know what souls really are other than, apparently, that they look pretty in mystical jars and Orbs of Thesulah. 😛
You can believe whatever you want about souls, but I'd say that it's really, really difficult (or pretty dang close to impossible) to make a definite point about souls in a 'verse that has yet to, well, define them. 🙂

Taaroko · Jan 11, 2011

I actually have a fairly straightforward theory on how souls work in the Buffyverse. As far as I can tell, everything falls neatly into place within it. You can take a look at it if you like.

StarSlayer · Jan 11, 2011

Taaroko said:
I actually have a fairly straightforward theory on how souls work in the Buffyverse. As far as I can tell, everything falls neatly into place within it. You can take a look at it if you like.

I reached my limit with rep today, but I've read that post before and really found it interesting. 🙂 However, and don't take this the wrong way, but I see theories like that as a psychological approach to the Buffyverse. I've read arguments like that before, which I do find extremely interesting but not as a means to define the characters and their stories. I go by what I see in the show. 🙂

prophecygrrl · Jan 11, 2011

Taaroko said:
I actually have a fairly straightforward theory on how souls work in the Buffyverse. As far as I can tell, everything falls neatly into place within it. You can take a look at it if you like.

Interesting theory! 😀

Unfortunately...considering that we don't all subscribe to Freudian ideas, it's still really murky in how it applies to souls, and it's still difficult to argue the correct value of souls in the Buffyverse. 😉 Also, Freud's theory of id, ego, and superego is only about the subconscious, isn't it? It seems incorrect to appropriate it for BtVS's understanding of souls, particularly when there's no direct evidence of this in the show; only pure interpretation. I mean we can obviously believe whatever we want and we can make conclusions on our own beliefs, but I think it goes back to the point I made before- the 'verse everything takes place in doesn't define things the same way you or I do, if at all. It's hard to make a single definite point about something like souls. For both sides. I'm a Spike fan, but I don't purport Spike to be a saint just because he went and got his soul, and I don't believe anyone else has either. (Going off on that, I think that's what a lot of Season 7 was about- proving he was actually worthy of being a Champion. But that's another point. 😀)

Also...this is a bit off topic but since your post on souls was actually largely about Angel, but I gotta say, judging whether souled Angel is ruled by superego, id, etc. is still plenty subjective. 🙂 You can, of course, believe (under your theory of intersecting Freudian psychology and BtVS's souls) Angel is ruled by his superego if you also believe his actions and relationship with Buffy to be selfless, moral, what have you, but...that's debatable. 😛 This isn't an Angel thread, so I won't get into that here, but I don't believe you can take it as fact. Again, this is all opinion. And I know we throw around the word 'opinion' a lot here lol, but the debatable-ness (is that a word? IDEK lol) is still relevant if you're arguing a universal theory based on something, like, that isn't a fact...:/

zobothehobo · Jan 12, 2011

Taaroko said:
I actually have a fairly straightforward theory on how souls work in the Buffyverse. As far as I can tell, everything falls neatly into place within it. You can take a look at it if you like.

I just read that but I have a question for you... wouldn't the chip suppress Spike's id too? I created a thread not long after I joined using the Freudian split of personalities and Spike (read it here) and I think the chip acted as a pseudo-superego forcing Spike to balance between what he wanted and what he could have. (NOTE: Since I posted that thread a WAY long time ago, I've come to believe the chip is a pseudo-superego not a pseudo-soul like the title of the thread suggests. I think I meant that back then but worded it wrong... again, I'm not the wordsmith... although to my defense, my first post on the second page of that thread does say just that.)

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

Taaroko agrees: The chip would only suppress his id if it tried to manifest through violence against humans. It was just instant, unavoidable negative reinforcement, not really a superego by the actual Freudian definition, and certainly nothing like a soul.

But his id DID manifest through violence against humans. That was kind of the whole point of his id. He wanted to eat, he killed someone. He wanted to have something, he killed whoever was in his way. He wanted to kill a slayer, he did it. You said in your post that the "demon" (which I wouldn't really consider a separate thing) was suppressed in Spike by his id. He was more interested in having fun than being evil. I agree there. But then after he got chipped, he couldn't have fun the way he used to... therefore suppressing his id.

Taaroko · Jan 12, 2011

zobothehobo said:
I just read that but I have a question for you... wouldn't the chip suppress Spike's id too? I created a thread not long after I joined using the Freudian split of personalities and Spike (read it here) and I think the chip acted as a pseudo-superego forcing Spike to balance between what he wanted and what he could have. (NOTE: Since I posted that thread a WAY long time ago, I've come to believe the chip is a pseudo-superego not a pseudo-soul like the title of the thread suggests. I think I meant that back then but worded it wrong... again, I'm not the wordsmith... although to my defense, my first post on the second page of that thread does say just that.)

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

But his id DID manifest through violence against humans. That was kind of the whole point of his id. He wanted to eat, he killed someone. He wanted to have something, he killed whoever was in his way. He wanted to kill a slayer, he did it. You said in your post that the "demon" (which I wouldn't really consider a separate thing) was suppressed in Spike by his id. He was more interested in having fun than being evil. I agree there. But then after he got chipped, he couldn't have fun the way he used to... therefore suppressing his id.

The id isn't *just* violence, it's *all* selfish human desire. Think seven deadly sins. So the chip would only make one small part of it impossible to express the way Spike would normally express it. He found an outlet for his love of violence by turning it against demons instead.

zobothehobo · Jan 12, 2011

Taaroko said:
The id isn't *just* violence, it's *all* selfish human desire. Think seven deadly sins. So the chip would only make one small part of it impossible to express the way Spike would normally express it. He found an outlet for his love of violence by turning it against demons instead.

By that logic my sister, who is a very selfish person, has no superego. Just because he has and acts on some selfish desires does not mean that the chip isn't acting as a superego in suppressing his id.

zobothehobo · Jan 12, 2011

Taaroko agrees: Well, I assume your sister is human, so she automatically has a superego, whether or not she exercises it. Spike's chip is not a superego. A superego does not suppress the id through jolts of pain, it does it through emotions like empathy and guilt.

That's why it's a "pseudo-superego." And superegos aren't really things you can turn on or off. It's not like "I'm not using my superego right now." It's more like how loud is your superego? "I know what I SHOULD do but it's not important enough for me to really do that." For instance, one time at dinner my friend told me she felt the need to shove her knife in my eye because it just felt like something that might be cool to do. She didn't do it because she realized the consequences of that would be really great. However she did confess to me that earlier that week, she'd blown off school just because. Both impulses were her id and both impulses were counted by her superego that told her they weren't good ideas... but she did one and didn't do the other. It's called prioritizing.

And by the way, I believe at first Spike's chip was acting as a pseudo superego ONLY by the electronic impulses and pain. However, as time went on, Spike developed the feelings and emotions that we humans have. I'm not sure how you could explain Tabula Rasa... having his mind wiped clean and then having no desire to bite anyone thinking he's a human. Then after finding out he was a vampire, he said he felt no desire to bite Buffy and he described himself as Angel. That tells me by that time, he was generally good natured.

fly on the wall · Jan 12, 2011

This thread (and the last one) = very interesting. Except that I find myself agreeing more with the anti-Spike posts, which confuses me because I definitely don't hate Spike. I agree that his actions could NOT be as selfless as they were portrayed pre-soul due to his lack of one...but I don't hate him for that, because he couldn't help it. He was soulless. Of course he was evil, selfish, manipulative, aggressive, and mean. Of course his "love" for both Dru and Buffy was not the kind of love soulful creatures can have. But none of that is his fault. Everything he did built up and up until he had a soul and that's where we can start judging him...except that I don't particularly like ensouled Spike, and so now I'm having an identity crisis as a Spike fan. Thanks, guys. 😉

But anyway, re: Spike must know that the Bot was not actually Buffy...then how did the Buffybot fool vampires for months while Buffy was dead? Sure, we can say that any vampire who noticed, "Hey, that girl appears to be a robot," wound up dead...but are we to assume that NOT A SINGLE VAMPIRE escaped that summer from a group of rather uncoordinated humans, witches who for some reason didn't summon nearly enough sunshine, a neutered and heartsick vampire, and a robot with an impressive fighting technique but very limited problem-solving skills? Or can we assume that it's NOT so easy to tell that the Buffybot wasn't real? Perhaps Warren's robot-making abilities are much better than we think. Or perhaps Willow added some finishing touches that made it harder to determine that the Buffybot wasn't a human being. But the fact is, until the Buffybot's metal interior was exposed, their secret remained safe...and I just don't see how that could happen if it was completely obvious to a vampire that this thing wasn't human.

brinkster130 · Jan 12, 2011

fly on the wall said:
This thread (and the last one) = very interesting. Except that I find myself agreeing more with the anti-Spike posts, which confuses me because I definitely don't hate Spike. I agree that his actions could NOT be as selfless as they were portrayed pre-soul due to his lack of one...but I don't hate him for that, because he couldn't help it. He was soulless. Of course he was evil, selfish, manipulative, aggressive, and mean. Of course his "love" for both Dru and Buffy was not the kind of love soulful creatures can have. But none of that is his fault. Everything he did built up and up until he had a soul and that's where we can start judging him...except that I don't particularly like ensouled Spike, and so now I'm having an identity crisis as a Spike fan. Thanks, guys. 😉

Same here, these two threads have been very interesting to read. I can't say I hate Spike but there is an awful lot about him that I don't care for.

fly on the wall said:
But anyway, re: Spike must know that the Bot was not actually Buffy...then how did the Buffybot fool vampires for months while Buffy was dead? Sure, we can say that any vampire who noticed, "Hey, that girl appears to be a robot," wound up dead...but are we to assume that NOT A SINGLE VAMPIRE escaped that summer from a group of rather uncoordinated humans, witches who for some reason didn't summon nearly enough sunshine, a neutered and heartsick vampire, and a robot with an impressive fighting technique but very limited problem-solving skills? Or can we assume that it's NOT so easy to tell that the Buffybot wasn't real? Perhaps Warren's robot-making abilities are much better than we think. Or perhaps Willow added some finishing touches that made it harder to determine that the Buffybot wasn't a human being. But the fact is, until the Buffybot's metal interior was exposed, their secret remained safe...and I just don't see how that could happen if it was completely obvious to a vampire that this thing wasn't human.

This storyline always bothered me. I don't see how any vampire would have really believed that the Buffy Bot was actually Buffy. Aren't vampires suppose to have really good hearing and a keen sense of smell? They would know as soon as they got close to her, they wouldn't smell her blood or hear a hear beat.

prophecygrrl · Jan 12, 2011

zobothehobo agrees: Also Spike didn't realize the original bot Warren made was a robot until he was told by the Scoobies.

Gotta put this in a separate comment, lol! I totally forgot about this and it's way relevant and excellent. Another reason why Spike not being able to tell the difference between the real Buffy and the Buffybot in the Intervention scene is not just him pretending to do so.. Regardless of whether or not you like Spike, he couldn't tell April was a robot either, and there's zero reason he'd just be playing along in that instance. I really think Warren was just really excellent at programming or something. Not the best explanation, but I don't think the alternative (that Spike *could* tell the difference and he was being disingenuous) makes much sense either.

StarSlayer · Jan 12, 2011

brinkster130 said:
Same here, these two thread have been very interesting to read. I can't say I hate Spike but there is an awful lot about him that I don't care for.

And that's the thing. 🙂 Spike fans (at least the ones I've come across here) know that this character has faults and flaws. He makes mistakes, he has bad habits, and does/did things we condone. But, at the same time, we also see good in the character. We see his struggle on his path toward redemption. If others don't see it, that's fine. To each their own. 🙂

InsaneMystic · Jan 12, 2011

prophecygrrl said:
the debatable-ness (is that a word? IDEK lol)

Of course it is! This is the Whedonverse, hun. Anything with -ness or -age at the end sparkles with undisputable wordness! 😀

zobothehobo agrees: My favorite thing about Spike is the mistakes he makes. He makes mistakes but he tries and he learns from them. What more can you ask?

A world of agreement. It's what I love about Spike, and why I identify with him and his character journey as much as I do.

Miss Kitty · Jan 12, 2011

Back to the debate 🙂

Taaroko, my answer to your post in the other thread 🙂 (Star Slayer has actually answered to some of your ideas, so I won't answer to everything) :

He's not a bad guy, people just have to go through the surface for knowing him. Like Buffy did. Like Dawn did. Like Fred did. It's just his way of being, because of his story. And I really like it.

Click to expand...

Yes, he is a bad guy, actually. Until he has a soul, he's a bad guy by default.

Okay, I realize that ‘bad guy’ wasn’t the good term, because it wasn’t what I meant 🙂 I wanted to say : he’s not emotionaly wicked ( ?)/ malicious, when you take the time to know him. Yes, he's sarcastic, blah blah blah, but he just protects his feelings in this way, that's how it works for him. He lets himself being emotionally close with very few people.

He isn't able to love--not truly and selflessly, because he lacks the required component, but he thinks he can because he can't feel the difference and he's able to romanticize his relationship with Drusilla. He likes the idea of having this big eternal love with her, so he lives it that way, for all the good it does him in the end.

Like I was saying, I don’t really like the Spike & Dru relationship, and I tend to agree with you when you say that he romanticizes his relationship with her. After all, she’s her sire, it was a real fascination for the person who ‘created’ him, fascination for her companion, and for her madness ; I think it was more more all these elements than real love. I never believed in this love.

The thing is, I think that his most human part (and I know that you disagree on this vision of things, but it remains my opinion, I see two parts in his way of being) emerged once he had been forced to collaborate with humans. At the beggining, he didn’t do it heartily, but the more he was with the Scooby, with Buffy, the more he felt about her, the more he was changing.

I see a form of ‘come back’ of Spike like he was at his beggining, when Drusilla turned William. He was dreaming about fights, but in parallel, he still had love for his mother. He wanted to help her and wanted to heal her from her illness, by turning her into a vampire (without realizing how much it was wrong). He was sweet and attentive with her when he took her in his arms for biting her. Her mother was as sweet and loving than he was as a human being. He was thinking that she’ll be like him once she’ll turned into a vampire. But she hadn’t be. He was wrong. She turned into a *real* demon, she said awful things to him, and he felt sorry for her, for what he has done to her, because by biting her, he really killed her (but he didn't really get it because he was different on this point) ; and that’s why it was a traumatism for him, that’s why the First uses it against him. A song singing by his mother, it can seem innocent, but for Spike, it has a particular meaning. Until Lies my parents told me, he never realized (or took the time to think about it) that it was the demon who was talking, not his mother.

Spike is different on some points. That’s a fact. And the idea of him loving to romanticize his relationships, I can buy it in some cases, but not for everything.

Back to Dru. When she left him, honestly, his return in season 3 was more funny (or pathetic) than touching to me. But like I said, I never believed in this relationship as a real love. So it’s okay with me. But his way of reacting with Buffy is a lot different. There’s real pain, we know how much it's hard for him (and not in a "I cry on bench" way while I pretend that I want to die because you left me), and at that point, he wanted to do a spell on him for stopping feeling this way for her.

SPIKE : And you - (to Buffy) wouldn't be able to touch me, because this, (pointing to Buffy, then to himself) with you, is wrong. I know it. I'm not a complete idiot.

(Crush, 5x14)

SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: (upset) No, you don't.
SPIKE: (harshly) You think I haven't tried not to?

(Dead things, 6x13)

BUFFY: (outraged) You were going to use a spell on me?
SPIKE: (sighs) It wasn't for you! I wanted something . Anything to make these feelings stop. I just wanted it to stop!

(Seeing Red, 6x19)

And what I’m trying to explain, it’s that his most human part, this part that we were seeing with his mother when Dru turned him, this part which still able to love and feeling compassion for the people he loves, is coming back again when he fell in love with Buffy, after 100 years where he completely embraced the demon. Because she makes him want to be better. Because his love for her makes him change in a good way (even if, I repeat myself, he keeps doing mistakes, he’s still a demon on some levels). The changes are rooted in him. That’s what we see in his monologue to the woman in Smashed. That’s what we see when he has remorses and culpability after the attempted rape. That’s what we see when he decides to go in Africa for recovering his soul.

He has a duality between two parts of himself which makes him doing things in two completely different ways.

You can disagree with this point of view 🙂 But it remains my opinion, because I firmly believe in it.

Souls=capacity for selflessness and goodness. Soulless demon=inherently evil.

All the rules have their exception, which make them valids, right ? 😉

The identity crisis is a very intriguing idea, though, I'll give you that much. It was always extremely important to Spike to belong somewhere. With Dru, with the Fanged Four, then when he had no other choice, with the Scoobies and Buffy. If they--more importantly, she--keep rejecting him, then he'll eventually resort to the one thing he thinks will work: a soul. (Still not a selfless motive, incidentally. Wanting to find a place might be a very sympathetic motive, but it isn't a selfless one, because it's something he wants for himself.)

From my point of view, he didn’t want to get his soul in order to ‘find a place’ (in fact, yes, but it's not the major point) but more in order ‘to be someone’. Yes, it includes to find a place, but it was especially for being someone (like he was saying in Seeing Red, he was thinking that he was "nothing" –not a vampire, not a human). And he wanted to get his soul for stopping to hurt the woman he loves (I really, really don’t think that he was expecting any return –he just wanted to be right to her, which is pretty selfless).

And when you’re saying that it wasn’t a selfless motive, implying that it was selfish (I think), I don’t understand what is selfish in the fact of wanting to evolve and becoming better. Especially when it came from a soulless vampire.

There is a broad spectrum of "feelings" one can have before they get to love. What she tells him in "As You Were" is the truth. She wants him, but she can't love him.

She can’t, but does she ? That’s another debate 🙂 All what I can say is that I disagree. Their relationship was a lot complex in season 6, and nobody will make me believe that there was nothing in Buffy’s side. I’m one of the fans who think that she begins to fell for him in season 6, but I don’t feel myself able to discussing about it right now.

I'm still not convinced that he was physically capable of removing the amulet and running. Didn't he get burned when he touched it before it was even completely powered up? And there's still what he said about it in "Just Rewards". He blamed Angel for giving Buffy the amulet and then leaving town, even though Angel didn't really know what the amulet was for either and only left town because Buffy wanted him to get a second front ready.

I think that he could have removed it if he had wanted to.

What he said in "Just Rewards" was more a ‘pike’ (okay, I’m not sure about the term, I mean, uh… a way of pissing of Angel ? Putting him in a bad light 😛 ). And it’s in part true, Spike doesn’t care about destiny or any of these things at this point.

And he disrespects whatever he and Buffy had in season seven by never contacting her to let her know he's alive.

I don’t think it’s disrepectful. Not voluntarily, at least. I think he’s just an idiot which has a lot of insecurities (and I say it in an affectionate way 😛 ).

Icarium :

The difference with his love with Dru is, he suffers a lot, but even if he wants Buffy, even if she rejects him, he won’t doing a spell or anything like that to her.

Click to expand...

You mean apart from trying to pull her "to the dark", trying to rape her, to make her quit her job, so she could be more dependent on him, kidnapping her and telling he would kill her if he doesn't love him, trying everything he could to break up her and Riley? Yes, he never really tries to force things with Buffy [/sarcasm]

Oh, Bloody Hell, I never realized that Spike was so cool !!!! 😀

🙄

Seriously, if you want to play with sarcasm, make sure that you actually did get my point first 🙂 In the rest of this part of my post, I was talking about the difference between Buffy and Drusilla in his way of dealing with her at this level : wanting her for who she is, and not wanting her with a lobotomized brain.

And I never, never deny that he has done mistakes in his way of acting with her. That was the whole point of my first post actually. But I won’t repeat myself.

I love how he evolves and how he tries. Even if he failed, even if he’s doing mistakes, he tries to change, and at some levels, he does change. But that’s all the nuance I was talking about : it’s not all black or all white. Yes, he’s not perfect, but he’s still in part a demon who try to put his most human part ahead. It doesn’t mean that he always succeeds, it means that he tries. And I find it amazing for a soulless vampire.

He was asking NOTHING to Buffy until their first kiss. Actually, it was all the contrary. He was there for her when she needed him : needed a presence (Afterlife, Flooded, Lifeserial), needed to talk (Lifeserial, Flooded, OMWF), needed help for fight (All the way, OMWF). He was there, but not insistent. And even more ! All his song to her was about this in OMWF : "Let me rest in peace". And he tried to give her the wish to live :

"The pain that you feel
You only can heal
By living
You have to go one living
So one of us is living."

He was respecting her. He was pushing her to the best. He wasn’t anymore the same Spike than at the beggining of season 5, who was more obsessed and clumsy in his way of wanting any emotional return from her. He was expecting nothing.

But from the time she went after him, it became a spiral of dependence and perdition. This is what have been unfortunate in their relationship in season 6, it wasn't the right emotional context. Spike wasn’t perfect, but Buffy wasn’t too. And I don’t blame them, each of them had their reasons.

Wait, wait, what? So Spike wasn't actually evil, he just pretended to be evil? Doesn't that make him all the more pathetic? I mean, if he is evil as every other vampire that's normal - you can't help being evil when lacking a soul. But if he could help it and was only killing and raping to get some respect from his fellow vampires than he is a whole new class of terrible, IMO. Even if you apply it only to Spike's rudeness, not his appetite for blood and destruction, it stil lmakes him extremely pathetic. "Oh, I will be mean to everyone because Angel was mean to me a century ago". Get over, it!

Okay, I have to say that I don’t even understand what you’re saying here, because it has nothing to do with what I was trying to explain 😕

I think he was stalling for time. It's not as if Glory was going to let him go if he had spilled the beans.

Huh ?

And what he said to the Buffybot (well, it wasn’t the Buffybot, but he didn’t know it) in his crypt ? Let me guess, even injured and in a the poorest condition, he’s so malicious that he keeps trying manipulate her feelings ? 😛

I think he is a drama queen.

Cool.

He says it so it must be true, is that it? Are we still talking about the queen of all drama queens? You don't really believe he would have admitted that the demon tricked him and gave him a soul instead of removing the chip even if that was the truth, do you?

I’m convinced of what he wanted to get when he goes to Africa, regarding to his journey, his reaction to what he had done to Buffy, and his wish to find an identity, it makes things easier 😉

Moreover, the demon talks about a restoration spell when Spike came to him. The last time we heard about a ‘restoration spell’, it was in season 2, when Willow was trying to restore Angel’s soul.

You can keep your idea, I keep mine.

zobothehobo · Jan 12, 2011

I just want to say something. I've seen the word "pathetic" thrown around here as a bad thing. I just want to say for a large portion of the series I think Spike's kind of pathetic. He's the outcasts of the outcasts desperately trying to find his place and trying to be a part of their little group whether he'll admit it or not. He's so desperately searching for acceptance... By anyone but namely Buffy. It is pathetic. However, that's what I love about him and that's what I relate to. How pathetic he is. I've see the world from the outside looking in. I've looked at the closet thing I have to friends and said "they hate me. They wish I would just leave. They don't want me around." And I've done the desperate "SOMEONE LOVE ME, OR AT LEAST APPRECIATE ME" thing. Spike's patheticness isn't bad. It's lovable.

Anyway, that's just my side note on describing Spike as pathetic like I've seen in the anti-Spike comments...

fly on the wall · Jan 13, 2011

Here's a problem....if soulless vampires have the capacity to TRULY change, and to love and to renounce their evil ways and to be good "people"...well, then, Buffy has no business killing any of them because that makes them human. And instead she should become "Buffy, the Vampire Rehabilitator" and should get them showers and jobs at Wal-Mart and they should be allowed to be upstanding members of society, unless they choose to remain evil, and then they should go through the legal system. And anytime Buffy kills a vampire or demon without giving them a chance to change, she should go through the legal system too.

See how the world...falls apart? I do think that Spike changed...but not exactly as its being described, or else everything is different and Buffy's whole universe needs to be reevaluated.

"Why the Spike hate?" Continued

Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel

The Dandy Lions

Ex-Scooby

Defender of Spuffy

The girl in question

Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel

Defender of Spuffy

The girl in question

Scooby

Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel

Scooby

Scooby

you have but-face.

Riley's BFF

The girl in question

Defender of Spuffy

Ex-Scooby

Potential

Scooby

you have but-face.