A better Big Bad?

[MarieVampSlayer]

Hi all!

So a lot of us can agree that Adam was a weak Big Bad for this season. If we could change it and choose an existing character(s) from this season who would you have like to see as the official BB for S4?

Please explain your choice 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think Adam was a really good Big Bad. If you are talking about as a threat he was just below Glory. He was damn near unstoppable. If he had not had to have relied on the bumbling Spike then the Scoobies would have been defeated.

 

[thetopher]

I vote for Maggie Walsh and more remote-control demons; maybe Walsh could've eventually augmented herself by the end episode. Then Buffy could've said 'Wow, you really are an evil bitch-monster of death' and then slew her.

Then again, I don't hate Adam, he was just introduced too late and did too little with what screen time he had. How much banter did he have with Buffy? None, all his interactions were mostly with Riley and Spike. A big flaw for the main villain; their focus should always be Buffy.

 

[WolfOnyx]

While Adam was the last evil standing in season 4, I would argue that Maggie Walsh actually was the Big Bad of the season. Adam wouldn't exist without her and she takes against Buffy almost immediately. She doesn't have the usual powers but has the ability to do some major damage though what seem like good intentions. Much like Jasmine in Angel. World Peace through genocide is still World Peace.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Adam had no personality, he really couldn't fight in that costume without looking like a 70 era Doctor Who villain, and the series simply didn't have the budget to do the end of "Cabin in the Woods." I don't even recall any problem of how he would die at first airing, it was thought Xander could find another rocket launcher. I mean, the government can nuke him, he's not getting out of Sunnydale alive. However, Buffy really couldn't fight Walsh, because Buffy can't fight the US Government. I mean, it was always going to be, the Monsters would overrun the the place. So, at best, Walsh stands in for Macnamera.

 

[gnarl]

I chose Maggie Walsh but I'm wondering if she got down played at the time because they didn't want season 4 to echo season 3's plot too much.
Buffy finds a friend/lover in fellow demon fighter Riley/Faith only to find out that they are under the employ of an evil institutional authority figure, Maggie Walsh/ Richard Wilkins III.
Of course that could have changed stuff around a bit of course but I'm wondering if that was a concern.

 

[crazysoulless]

I love the Initiative storyline. My problem with it is how it was filmed and the casting selection. There was something about the soldiers, doctors, scientists, and sets that felt phony. It was like the Scoobies dressing up in that play for the talent show.

 

[Vampire Willow]

Sunday ;D
I was so sure she'd be a major character when she was introduced. It was so disappointing that they made her so intrigueing yet made her a one-episode thing.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I love the Initiative storyline. My problem with it is how it was filmed and the casting selection. There was something about the soldiers, doctors, scientists, and sets that felt phony. It was like the Scoobies dressing up in that play for the talent show.

Oh good heavens yes! There was an underground bunker no one knew about but its huge area was excavated ten storeys down and covered again using university building funds at some time in the past. I can't imagine a secret bunker in a university or that the military would not use its own territory for a secret lab. It's not a secret if everyone saw it being built. It's like Dracula's castle - it showed up overnight and no one noticed. Professor Walsh would have remained at the military site and so would Riley and his squad. Walsh's time would not be wasted on undergrads.

The bromance story where Riley assaulted his superior officer, deserted then was welcomed back into the fold of worldwide secret operatives. Huh? His butt would be in Leavenworth for desertion and striking an officer and he would remain there for a long time.

We never see Riley doing anything right. He has several tasks to do and he fails at them all. So how does he get to join an elite group?

Correct about the casting. Captain Cardboard really never sells his part in the story, including his romance with Buffy.

 

[Dora]

I have always thought we did not get enough of the initiative or Maggie the whole thing seemed so rushed to m,e a bit like the end of S7 and Adam could have been great but it never seemed to work
You are right about Riley Finn, Ethan Reigns, Riley does nothing right I would have liked to have seen Parker completely worked over and as for Spike and the plastic stake.....
I don't know of any other big Bad ,Adam and the initiative should have been fine it did not seem to gel

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I voted Maggie Walsh and Riley.

I think they could've used Maggie Walsh to serve Buffy's view on being the slayer. Yes Buffy has to slay vampires, but that doesn't mean she has to treat them like animals. I think vampires and slayers have the understanding that one of them is going to kill the other (and it all depends on the fight) and they accept and respect that fact. Therefore Maggie Walsh would serve as an ethical villain rather than a mwahaha one. Robot Adam could even be used to give Walsh some emotional depth eg Adam was Walsh's son who was killed by a vampire (hence her view of them as nothing but animals), and in her grief she created a replica of him and her attachment to the replica is both crepy and tragic.

Riley could be Walsh's secret toy boy lover (perhaps with a subtle Oedipus complex) and she charges him with the mission to get close to Buffy and keep tabs on her. Riley begins a relationship with Buffy, and this could be played as either him just using her or he genuinely does begin to fall in love with her. Either way, it might make Riley a little more interesting.

My thoughts on the other suggestions:

Ethan Rayne- Wouldn't work. His story purpose revolves around Giles rather than Buffy. Add in the fact that he worships "chaos", he hasn't got the calculating nature to be a big bad. He works better popping in and out of the show to annoy Giles.

Sunday- Wouldn't work. She wouldn't be able to carry a whole season as a big bad. However, as a mini-bad or small arc villain, she'd do well.

The government- I disliked the government being involved with the initiative as it made the whole thing "too big" if that makes sense. It would've worked better if the initiative was something that was based off of old discarded military intelligence eg the "Destiny" flashabacks on the submarine, but that the government weren't actually involved in. It would also explain why Riley was in such a high ranking position (slept his way to the top) despite not being old enough to have the years of experience that he would need in the actual military. Basically, the initiative is Maggie Walsh's thing not a government thing.

The gentlemen- Would not work at all. There is no way they could carry a whole season as a big bad. For a 2 or 3 episode arc, yes, but as a whole season, no.

Kathy Newman- See above.

Faith- Wouldn't work. She's not got the brains to be a big bad. She's more of a "dragon" type character. Any villainy Faith could've had, they kind of dealt with in Season 3, to carry it on in Season 4 would feel like a rehash.

The First slayer- Wouldn't work. She's not got the presence to loom over the season as a big bad. Also, the slayer has been built up as a force for good, to have the first slyer be evil kind of goes against that. However it would be interesting for Buffy to find out her power comes from evil.

Spike- Without Dru beside him to provide the emotional aspect, Spike is kind of adrift in the villain stakes. He has no motivation to cause trouble for Buffy on a larger scale (the trouble he caused Buffy in Season 2 was related to Dru in some way). Spike would work as a frenemy who helps and hinders Buffy depending on which side pays him more, but he has no reason to be a big bad.

Jonathan- He's too emotional and conscience filled. He needs a Warren to lead him down the dark path of villainy.

 

[slayer730]

I voted Maggie Walsh and Riley.

I think they could've used Maggie Walsh to serve Buffy's view on being the slayer. Yes Buffy has to slay vampires, but that doesn't mean she has to treat them like animals. I think vampires and slayers have the understanding that one of them is going to kill the other (and it all depends on the fight) and they accept and respect that fact. Therefore Maggie Walsh would serve as an ethical villain rather than a mwahaha one. Robot Adam could even be used to give Walsh some emotional depth eg Adam was Walsh's son who was killed by a vampire (hence her view of them as nothing but animals), and in her grief she created a replica of him and her attachment to the replica is both crepy and tragic.

Riley could be Walsh's secret toy boy lover (perhaps with a subtle Oedipus complex) and she charges him with the mission to get close to Buffy and keep tabs on her. Riley begins a relationship with Buffy, and this could be played as either him just using her or he genuinely does begin to fall in love with her. Either way, it might make Riley a little more interesting.

My thoughts on the other suggestions:

The government- I disliked the government being involved with the initiative as it made the whole thing "too big" if that makes sense. It would've worked better if the initiative was something that was based off of old discarded military intelligence eg the "Destiny" flashabacks on the submarine, but that the government weren't actually involved in. It would also explain why Riley was in such a high ranking position (slept his way to the top) despite not being old enough to have the years of experience that he would need in the actual military. Basically, the initiative is Maggie Walsh's thing not a government thing.

I like this idea and I think it'd be a good follow up after the first three seasons to have a villain that differed from the vampires and demons as big bads. She's a human that she couldn't just slay but still presented a dilemma she had to stop at the end of the season. I'm not too sold on Riley sleeping with Maggie but I do think there is a maternal bind potentially there that can be developed.


I did have a few questions for you though that I was confused on

1) What would be her main motivation and how would the final showdown unfold with her at the end of the season?

2) Could you elaborate a little more what you meant by being based off of old discarded military intelligence like in the episode "Why We Fight" , because thats one of my least favorite episodes so the details are hazy to me.
Are you saying Maggie would be a government official that was exiled or left only to become the leader of her own secret organization she created and recruited her own soldiers?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I'm not too sold on Riley sleeping with Maggie but I do think there is a maternal bind potentially there that can be developed.

I just think it would make Riley a little more interesting where it's not clear what side he's on. It wouldn't be played as a romance.

I did have a few questions for you though that I was confused on

1) What would be her main motivation and how would the final showdown unfold with her at the end of the season?

Walsh's motivation would be revenge. Her son (human Adam) was killed by a vampire and now she wants to make the whole lot of them pay. Walsh is essentially a grieving mother who never got over her son's death. Robot Adam was created and Walsh treats him as if he was her actual son which only fuels her hatred against the vampires over what they did to him.

Walsh's experiments (such as sticking chips in their heads) and her treatment of vampires is so cruel that even Buffy, the slayer, is appalled. Although Buffy's destiny is to fight and slay vampires, she can't just stand back and watch as Walsh essentially tortures vampires just for being vampires. She feels conflicted because she shouldn't care but she does.

I haven't really thought how the final showdown would happen but I think it would be taken out of Buffy's hands. Buffy wouldn't kill Walsh, but Walsh would die.

2) Could you elaborate a little more what you meant by being based off of old discarded military intelligence like in the episode "Why We Fight" , because thats one of my least favorite episodes so the details are hazy to me.
Are you saying Maggie would be a government official that was exiled or left only to become the leader of her own secret organization she created and recruited her own soldiers?

I'm saying that Maggie somehow came across the details of the Nazis experiments on vampires and decided to create her own handpicked team to carry out similar sort of experiments. Nobody becomes a member of the Initiative without Maggie's say so. Buffy got in because she was "spotted" fighting a vampire by Riley who thought she would make a good addition to the Initiative.

 

[slayer730]

I just think it would make Riley a little more interesting where it's not clear what side he's on. It wouldn't be played as a romance.

Walsh's motivation would be revenge. Her son (human Adam) was killed by a vampire and now she wants to make the whole lot of them pay. Walsh is essentially a grieving mother who never got over her son's death. Robot Adam was created and Walsh treats him as if he was her actual son which only fuels her hatred against the vampires over what they did to him.

Walsh's experiments (such as sticking chips in their heads) and her treatment of vampires is so cruel that even Buffy, the slayer, is appalled. Although Buffy's destiny is to fight and slay vampires, she can't just stand back and watch as Walsh essentially tortures vampires just for being vampires. She feels conflicted because she shouldn't care but she does.

I haven't really thought how the final showdown would happen but I think it would be taken out of Buffy's hands. Buffy wouldn't kill Walsh, but Walsh would die.

I'm saying that Maggie somehow came across the details of the Nazis experiments on vampires and decided to create her own handpicked team to carry out similar sort of experiments. Nobody becomes a member of the Initiative without Maggie's say so. Buffy got in because she was "spotted" fighting a vampire by Riley who thought she would make a good addition to the Initiative.

It definitely would make for a a more interesting character for Riley to be conflicted like that. and add more layers to him as a character.

As far as Walsh, thats a very interesting conflict, and would make a nice counterbalance to some of the lighter moments of season 4, but i'm not sure how introducing that moral dilemma would work in the context of the show after season 4 especially since she kills vampires for three more seasons as a part of her routine. How would that effect her job in a post season 4?

Also, I think I get what you're saying about Walsh and just wanted to clarify once again, (sorry if it seems like i'm pressing or pushy about this btw I'm genuinely intrigued by the idea) So Walsh does work for the government and is tasked with researching demons in the Sunnydale area, but she uses the resources they gave her to kind of go on her own tangent with The Initiative, which is her own group within the government activity that she uses to exact revenge for her murdered son, correct?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

As far as Walsh, thats a very interesting conflict, and would make a nice counterbalance to some of the lighter moments of season 4, but i'm not sure how introducing that moral dilemma would work in the context of the show after season 4 especially since she kills vampires for three more seasons as a part of her routine. How would that effect her job in a post season 4?

Buffy would still be the slayer and slay vampires post-season 4. I figure that Slayers and Vampires coming into contact and only one walking away is the "natural order" of things and both Slayers and Vampires respect that fact. It's the torture and experiments that Walsh does on the vampires that Buffy disagrees with, she thinks it's more humane to just slay the vampires.

Of course Xander would disagree and think the vampires deserve what they get because they're "homicidal blood sucking fiends" whilst Willow is caught between the two opposing viewpoints.

Also, I think I get what you're saying about Walsh and just wanted to clarify once again, (sorry if it seems like i'm pressing or pushy about this btw I'm genuinely intrigued by the idea) So Walsh does work for the government and is tasked with researching demons in the Sunnydale area, but she uses the resources they gave her to kind of go on her own tangent with The Initiative, which is her own group within the government activity that she uses to exact revenge for her murdered son, correct?

The government play no part in Walsh's Initiative (since I felt that having the government involved in Season 4 made everything too "big" rather than being local to Sunnydale). The Initiative is Walsh's private thing, it's slightly lower tech than the Initiative in Season 4 and she can fund it because she's got loads of money. She also has Warren as a technician on her team so he comes up with the weaponry and is also in charge of maintaining Robot Adam. Teaching Psych is more of a hobby of hers. As for how she came across the Nazi experiment, her father was one of the soldiers on the submarine during World War 2 so would've witnessed Spike killing crew members. This experience would have him warning his young daughter about vampires. Walsh married into money which is how she can afford to run the Initiative but her husband died in a car accident which left her and Adam but then Adam was killed by a vampire which is why Walsh is so focussed on her work.

 

[slayer730]

Buffy would still be the slayer and slay vampires post-season 4. I figure that Slayers and Vampires coming into contact and only one walking away is the "natural order" of things and both Slayers and Vampires respect that fact. It's the torture and experiments that Walsh does on the vampires that Buffy disagrees with, she thinks it's more humane to just slay the vampires.

Of course Xander would disagree and think the vampires deserve what they get because they're "homicidal blood sucking fiends" whilst Willow is caught between the two opposing viewpoints.



The government play no part in Walsh's Initiative (since I felt that having the government involved in Season 4 made everything too "big" rather than being local to Sunnydale). The Initiative is Walsh's private thing, it's slightly lower tech than the Initiative in Season 4 and she can fund it because she's got loads of money. She also has Warren as a technician on her team so he comes up with the weaponry and is also in charge of maintaining Robot Adam. Teaching Psych is more of a hobby of hers. As for how she came across the Nazi experiment, her father was one of the soldiers on the submarine during World War 2 so would've witnessed Spike killing crew members. This experience would have him warning his young daughter about vampires. Walsh married into money which is how she can afford to run the Initiative but her husband died in a car accident which left her and Adam but then Adam was killed by a vampire which is why Walsh is so focused on her work.

The government angle of The Initiative always had me conflicted. On the one hand I thought it made sense (especially with the end of Out of Mind, Out of Sight) that the government would show interest in the demonic world and would want to gather more information. On the other hand, like you said it also gave the mythology a much larger scope that in hindsight makes the "defeat" and removal of the government jarring. Its like they started a project and then they stopped because it went bad because of a rogue agent and her own experiments? I'd think they'd want to pursue it even more because the demonic world still poses somewhat of a threat. With our idea of being a lower scale operation, it makes the take down of the organization much easier and while the government exists, the audience isn't shown this so we don't have to ponder about why they are or aren't taking certain actions.

I am curious how would her base of operations would be since it isn't government related anymore. How would it look and where would it take place in your opinion? Still on campus or somewhere else?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I am curious how would her base of operations would be since it isn't government related anymore. How would it look and where would it take place in your opinion? Still on campus or somewhere else?

It would be off campus, probably on some private land owned by Walsh. It would mostly be underground especially the captivity cages and labs but there would be some recreation areas above ground for the personnel. Most of the soldiers would live within the base and be dedicated to the cause (obviously until the initiative gets disbanded and everyone goes there separate ways). I also like the idea that within the base is a small hall of mirrors which gets used during one of the experiments. Because the vampires have no reflections, they more often than not end up running into the mirrors. Because there are cameras within the hall of mirrors to watch the experiment in progress, the soldiers often get a good laugh as the vampires bounce off the mirrors and hit the floor.

 

[slayer730]

It would be off campus, probably on some private land owned by Walsh. It would mostly be underground especially the captivity cages and labs but there would be some recreation areas above ground for the personnel. Most of the soldiers would live within the base and be dedicated to the cause (obviously until the initiative gets disbanded and everyone goes there separate ways). I also like the idea that within the base is a small hall of mirrors which gets used during one of the experiments. Because the vampires have no reflections, they more often than not end up running into the mirrors. Because there are cameras within the hall of mirrors to watch the experiment in progress, the soldiers often get a good laugh as the vampires bounce off the mirrors and hit the floor.

Maybe the private land could also have a manor on it that she lives in that doubles as her base operation center underneath it. Dracula from the season 5 premiere had something similar going on except it was more of an olden castle that was distant from the town. There could also be an underground cave system that connects to the woods and near the school campus as well. I'm not sure what her technology would look like in terms of the computers and stuff. The Initative we got looked impressive at first but whenever I think of it I think of a big open warehouse space with shiny foil.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Maybe the private land could also have a manor on it that she lives in that doubles as her base operation center underneath it. Dracula from the season 5 premiere had something similar going on except it was more of an olden castle that was distant from the town. There could also be an underground cave system that connects to the woods and near the school campus as well. I'm not sure what her technology would look like in terms of the computers and stuff. The Initative we got looked impressive at first but whenever I think of it I think of a big open warehouse space with shiny foil.

You make it sound like Walsh is Batman, lol.

I don't think details of Walsh's living arrangements are necessary, just that she owns this private land and that's where the base is and where she spends most of her time when she's not teaching.

 

[slayer730]

You make it sound like Walsh is Batman, lol.

I don't think details of Walsh's living arrangements are necessary, just that she owns this private land and that's where the base is and where she spends most of her time when she's not teaching.

That definitely wasn't intentional. haha. I just figured something needed to be there that was on the land that wouldn't draw attention to casual people walking by it.