Angel Season 3 Rewatch

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NoShip
@NotASlayer @HowiMetdaSlayer

So Iv seen the first 4 episodes of Angel Season 3. While Buffy had moved to UPN Angel had stayed on the WB. So the question is how would it handle being on its as a show.

Hearthrob - I really liked this episode. Dealt with dealing with the issue of the character who had just moved Networks really well. I liked how Angel was dealing with Buffys death.
James and Elizabeth were basically a proto Spike and Dru . We also have our first appearance of Holtz. Though how Angelus and James get away makes him look a bit incompetent. A good season start with Angel on its own now.

The Vision Thing - the contrast on the colouring got turned way up in this episode. Skip was incredibly popular which was what got him more episodes later this season and next. Also I remember at the time some wondering if the guy in flames was Angels son. He actually looks better for the role than VK would ironically.
Overall as an episode I was meh. The things happening to Cordelia were horrific but how it was handled was very 1 note. Basically Angel gets mad and kills a bad guy but not Lilah the person who set it up.

That Old Gang of Mine - This would've worked better if this episode had been done in Season 2 to be frank. It starts off strong but let down by the Bar scene at the end. It just goes on and on and theres no tension to it. Still its nice to see JAR actually given something to do.
Overall watchable but could've been better

Carpe Nocturn - Angel does Who Are You but without the complexity or character development. This was David Boreanaz favourite episode of the show. Basically because he could goof around. Now there are some funny moments but Overall its not very good and some of its language and attitude towards women is actually quite misogynistic. See the conversation about Escorts for example. Not a good episode

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carrying on

Fredless - Its a good overall story idea and its nice to finally see Parents who aren't normally awful or clueless. The problem is in the execution. Whether its because of the script or the directing, lines or scenes that are supposed to be funny just aren't and the timing feels off.
Overall its a meh episode neither bad nor good.

Billy - This was a controversial episode when it first aired with the all men have misogyny in them. Looking back 26 years on rewatch and to me it feels less like a dark edgey episode but instead a bit of a cop out. Don't get me wrong the acting, particularly from the guy who plays Billy and Alexis Denisof is excellent but Billy's not human yet its still an issue to out right kill him but in the end that doesn't matter because Lilah shows up and shoots him and she's damned as a bad guy anyway, so all sense of guilt and responsibility that Cordelia has, which was the whole point of the episode (and Angel made plain he doesn't care) over Billy being set free is moot.
Also Billy's powers that conveniently didn't work on Angel because he never hated when he killed even when he was evil ! . Huh I guess Joss never informed Tim Minear and Jeff Bell that in Buffy S2 "She made me feel like a human being, that's not the kind of thing you can just forgive" happened !!! Hell even last years "Take them all" didn't happen either !!!
Overall its watchable but no where near as edgy or deep as it was trying to be nor as controversial as it was made out to be at the time either.
Anyway the next episodes are finally the show getting back to the main plot from Checks notes Episode 1 !!!!

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer

So the final Darla Trilogy and Dad

Offspring- Its enjoyable enough though the obvious contrast with Faith in 5 by 5 could not be more obvious !
We get another flashback of Holtz failing to kill Angelus again which doesn't help him as a so called bad arse character.
I find it hard that Cordy would be that naive with Darla and Angel smacking around a pregnant woman is a bit much even if the writers try and fail to say its because Darla is more powerful Huh !
Still enjoyable for all that.

Quickening - I love this exchange Cyrill "Miss Morgan I admire you" Quick as a flash, Lilah "I don't date men in the mail room Cyrill" 😂😂
I enjoyed this

Lullaby - Really good episode and Darlas death scene/Connor birth is really well done. Julie Benz does still the show and Angel not forgiving her when she apologises to him for making him a Vampire is great to watch.

Dad - Its ok though I quickly got tired of David Boreanaz doing baby faces and noises. Also the introduction of Justine 😐 Even in 2026 she still sucks

 

[Btvs fan]

So Birthday- Its basically Cordelia This is your life. Its still very good and 1 Armed Wesley the vet is awesome 🙂

Overall Season 3, you could watch Episode 1 and then skip to episode 7 and not miss anything. The actor who plays Holtz is good but the character has been meh so far. Let's see what happens in the 2nd half

 

[Btvs fan]

On the Rewatch
Provider - The episode that was so bad Scott Murphy got fired over it.
On rewatch yeah I can see why. There's literally a scene where the bad guys get a laptop points it to the Camera and uses it to explain both the plot amd show the audience what their evil scheme is 😳🤦
In another Cordelia decides to monologue to the baby/audience character details we as an audience already know 🤦🤦
This guy clearly needed to learn basic screen writing before he got a job as one.
As an episode its terrible similar to Beer Bad but without the so bad it's terrible charm that episode had

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer @wolfheart

Waiting in the Wings - written and directed by Joss Whedon - Basically this episode happened because Joss loved Ballet and saw Amy Acker peform Ballet. It also featured Summer Glau which probably got her the job for River on Firefly.
As an episode, its good Im not sure it's great though there are some good scenes. Cordelia attempting to bribe the Guard with Money before Angel knocks him out was hilarious.
The scene/reaction of Wesley seeing Gunn and Fred kiss was excellent too. Alexis Denisof plays it so well. The laughing clown faced henchmen were creepy. To be honest Angel should've done more than simply punch Kurskov at the end.
Also they should've pulled the trigger on Cangel rather than pulling back at the end with bringing in Groo.
Overall a good episode

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer @Stake fodder

Couplet - The follow on from Waiting in the Wings. There's some good stuff in here. The scene of Angel stuck in the Sewer unable to go out after the Monster but Groo can was a good metaphorical representation of the difficulties he faces. Also how Wesley deals with Fred and Gunn on contrast tk Angel and Groo is great. I also like the Tree Monster which was basically ripped off the Old Oak Tree from Lord of the Rings. Mark Lutz is great as Groo and his comic timing is excellent for that role. What holds it back
I don't buy that Cordy would be so oblivious of Angels feelings for her though or that she'd forget what she felt literally the previous episode. All in all enjoyable but not great.

Loyalty- Very good episode and first of a 2 parter. Wesley breaking down and his reaction to the Father Will Kill The Son prophecy is well acted. Also him talking to a cranky Burger sign is absolutely hilarious. Where it falls down is him not telling Angel about this. He would do. He has experience of prophecies not being interpreted correctly but if he did that then the plot couldn't progress !
I also don't believe he'd go and do a deal with Holtz behind Angels and the Gang back regardless of his rejection by Fred for Gunn. How did they find out that woman worked for Holtz anyway ? watching it Im still not clear!
Fred and Gunn are a decent pairing but written a bit to sickly. They haven't reached Willow/Tara baby talk but its close. Wolfram and Hart spiking Angels blood with Connors so Angel sees him as food is shocking and great stuff.
Holtz meh, the actor is great and the idea was great but the execution is poor. Plus the Justine casting was terrible, its like nails on a chalk board watching her.
So yeah it's a really good episode but its main problem is the only way the plot works is if the character (Wesley) doesn't do the most obvious thing.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:19 AM

 

[thetopher]

With S3 I remember liking Heartthrob because it was an interesting idea; 'the unkillable vampire going on a suicide run for revenge' is very Spike like to be honest.
But the Cangel got pushed quite hard quite suddenly, which was jarring a bit.

I didn't care for That Vision Thing or That Old Gang Of Mine; I consider the sudden arrival of martyr!Cordelia in the first to be the first nail in the coffin of her character, it would take the whole season to make her character redundant.
And secondly Gunn gets three character centric-episodes in this season and they all suck, Double Or Nothing being the worst to the point of messing up his basic character concept.

Carpe Noctem is fun if mostly inconsequential.

Fredless is the best episode of the first half of the season and succeeded in endeering me to Fred, thanks mostly to Amy Acker's performance, before this episdoe I was really lukewarm to the character.

Billy is rank, rampant misandry, to me it is the worst Angel episode ever in terms of substance and what it is trying to claim. Didn't care for Skip either.

 

[Btvs fan]

With S3 I remember liking Heartthrob because it was an interesting idea; 'the unkillable vampire going on a suicide run for revenge' is very Spike like to be honest.
But the Cangel got pushed quite hard quite suddenly, which was jarring a bit.

I didn't care for That Vision Thing or That Old Gang Of Mine; I consider the sudden arrival of martyr!Cordelia in the first to be the first nail in the coffin of her character, it would take the whole season to make her character redundant.
And secondly Gunn gets three character centric-episodes in this season and they all suck, Double Or Nothing being the worst to the point of messing up his basic character concept.

Carpe Noctem is fun if mostly inconsequential.

Fredless is the best episode of the first half of the season and succeeded in endeering me to Fred, thanks mostly to Amy Acker's performance, before this episdoe I was really lukewarm to the character.

Billy is rank, rampant misandry, to me it is the worst Angel episode ever in terms of substance and what it is trying to claim. Didn't care for Skip either.

Haven't got to Double or Nothing yet. Iv done That Old Gang of Mine but it feels like it should've happened last season not this.
Gunn as a character is great. A Social activist living on the streets. The problem was the writers didn't know how to write him or what to do with him.
There's a scene at the start of Redifinition where he shrugs about being fired by Angel. Like he said, it was just a side gig. That makes sense yet by the nect scene he's at the Host Bar singing his heart out devastated!!!

Then he's basically Wesley side kick and now he's the other guy plot device in the Love Triangle that exists to split Wesley off the group

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer @Stake fodder

So Sleep Tight the 2nd of the 2 Parter. Great stuff. Angel saying good bye to baby Connor not realising thats it forever is powerful stuff. Wesley realisation that Lorne read him is such a great reaction, well played by Denisif.
Then getting his throat cut after kidnapping Angels son and the huge stand off at the end. Again all great. Where it falls down is Angel doing nothing after finding out Lilah poisoned his drinking blood with Connors to make him seem like food. He should've killed her for that.

Forgiving - Angel trying to get his son back and Gunn and Fred desperately trying to find Wesley before Angel does. All good but its all about the ending as Angel calmly telling Wesley in the Hospital that he's Angel not Angelus then attempting to smother him to death. Great stuff, when Angel as a show gets things wrong they can be wrong but the flip side is when they get it right it gets it really right.

Both episodes are rewatchable

 

[NotASlayer]

There are issues in that no-one thinks to tell Wesley that Angel's blood had been spiked; doing that instead of keeping it quiet for no reason (other than to advance the plot) is pretty silly, as Wes would then have reevaluated what he was planning.

 

[Btvs fan]

There are issues in that no-one thinks to tell Wesley that Angel's blood had been spiked; doing that instead of keeping it quiet for no reason (other than to advance the plot) is pretty silly, as Wes would then have reevaluated what he was planning.

In fairness Wesley is out when that happens and Lorne is starting to tell him before he starts to read Wesley who then knocks him out

 

[Kendar]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer

Also the introduction of Justine 😐 Even in 2026 she still sucks

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer @Stake fodder

Plus the Justine casting was terrible, its like nails on a chalk board watching her.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:19 AM

The popular* theory is that Justine's character was originally supposed to be Kate. Instead of Angel stopping her suicide attempt (which would never have happened) she would have started trying to harass him, then joined up with Holtz.

*The one problem with the theory is that I can't find any place where someone who was in the know says it. It's popular enough that it's accepted as truth (even by me), but no one can OFFICIALLY show it was the actual plan.

 

[Btvs fan]

The popular* theory is that Justine's character was originally supposed to be Kate. Instead of Angel stopping her suicide attempt (which would never have happened) she would have started trying to harass him, then joined up with Holtz.

*The one problem with the theory is that I can't find any place where someone who was in the know says it. It's popular enough that it's accepted as truth (even by me), but no one can OFFICIALLY show it was the actual plan.

Yeah that does sound like a fan theory. Even without the suicide attempt rescue I can't imagine her joining Holtz. I just don't see it working.
To me Justine like Connor and like Nina was just some real terrible casting choices

Bit late but I can't see Kate having the Daddy figure/lover Dom/Sub and Abuser vibe they were going with Holtz and Justine

 

[Btvs fan]

@thetopher So I watched Double or Nothing and I think you're a bit harsh. While it's not great by any stretch, its not the worst episode ever. Though the scene of Gunn while they play Gangsters Paradise was so cheesy.
Also Fred/Gunn was played to cutesy wuetsey and sickly for my tastes.
The actual idea that a young Gunn with nothing to live for would sell his soul is not a bad idea (why wouldn't he help him and his sister get off the streets ?) Its just the execution is a bit poor as is the resolution of The Soul Sucker.
That said the B Plot involving Angel dealing with Connor loss is decent. Plus Fred telling Wesley he should've spoken to them before betraying them to Holtz was needed.
So yeah not the best episode but not the worst either.

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
@DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer @Stake fodder @Kendar

Ok so the final episodes of Season 3

The Price - This is a fun episodes though the motivation of the Slugs seem strange. Possessed Fred says it was to get out and control people. Yet A that 1 Slug only cared about drinking and didn't care about getting others out or spreading. 2 The other Slugs didn't follow the way he went out !!! 3 The motivation changes that they were fleeing from The Destroyer - Make up your minds
That aside it was enjoyable enough to watch.
Anyway it ends with Connor bursting out going "Hi Dad" - How does Connor know thats his Dad ??

A New World - A good episode but they missed a trick here. Instead of using Justine in the later episodes with Connor they should've used Sunny. Instead they introduce then kill her off immediately before we as an audience get a chance to care. Also Angels complete non reaction to a young girl over dosing is pretty harsh to say the least.

Benediction- The highlight for me in this episode is Groo and his scene with Lorne
"If things are meant to be you can't force them" "if they are meant to be, how can they be forced?"

"If my Princess asks, Im taking a walk...if she asks" Such a great scene that says so much.

Lilah and Wesley is a delight. The scene of them at the club and Justine ambush by Vampires "she thinks she's a Slayer: is great. Wesley of course did not attempt to warn or help her.

Where it falls down is the main plot. First Holtz make up is awful and looks so fake it takes me out the scene. Second Angel going to confront Holtz behind his newly met up son is incredibly stupid and self defeating and thats even without Fred and Gunn monologuing the plot for Connor to overhear.
Then conveniently Connor shows up right as Justine kills him and doesn't wander why Angel bit Holtz but Holtz hasn't been drained of blood !
Basically its a plot that only works because characters behave stupid in certain situations.

Tomorrow - There's some good visuals like the Connor/Angel fight on the beach and the juxtaposition of Angel descending in the Ocean while Cordelia is ascending to another plane of existence. The problem is there really isn't much in terms of the episode itself. Lorne and Angel have pretty much the same goodbye scene in the episode except in 1 he warns Angel not to trust Connor while in the other he gives him a CD to listen too !!!
Lynwood sends some goons to fight Angel and Connor to remind the audience Wolfram and Hart still exist but which if you give it some tiny thought is incredibly stupid. Going after both together and with Gunn as well !
The stand out is Lilah and Wesley and the start of one of my favourite relationships of either this or Buffy.
Overall again its enjoyable but it stops being great because like the main plot or story. It only works on some real contrivances and conveniences. For example if Connor had not heard that phone conversation between Angel and Cordy he would have no idea where to go, nor would Justine know to get a boat and a box ready for Angel !!

Ill give my Overall season 3 thoughts in a bit

Post automatically merged: Today at 11:29 AM

Overall my thoughts on Season 3. Its a mixed bag. For example you could watch Episode 1 and then jump straight to Episode 7 and not really miss anything. None of those other episodes really add anything except that Fred has normal parents.

The plots only really work because of convenience. For example if Wesley had mentioned the Prophecy to anyone then the kidnapping plot wouldn't have happened and Holtz couldn't have got Connor.

Holtz as a main villain just didn't and was very repetitive. While the least said about Sub/Dom girlfriend Justine the better.

Connor I'll say it now but he was miscast. VK did the best he could but its just hard to imagine him as Angels son and one that grew up as a hard as nails warrior in a hell dimension.

Gunn and Fred relationship was written in the most sickly way imaginable. It was almost as bad as Willow/Tara and the baby talk. While constantly talking about how Fred loves to eat is jarring watching a stick thin actress that you can tell doesn't eat much

Angel/Cordy - They should've just pulled the trigger instead of this mess both characters got.

The real stand out was Sajhan - he was fun

That said it was still enjoyable enough as a season but not as good as 2. Maybe better than 1.

Ok onwards to season 4

 

[NotASlayer]

Anyway it ends with Connor bursting out going "Hi Dad" - How does Connor know thats his Dad ??

My assumption was that as Holtz was raising him to go after Angel, he would at least be telling him what he looks like.

First Holtz make up is awful and looks so fake it takes me out the scene.

Not unique to Angel. Ageing attempts in older series were, shall we say, less than wonderful. Nowadays they're better with CGI and at least having the ability to reasonably predict what a person will look like when they are older.

Connor I'll say it now but he was miscast. VK did the best he could but its just hard to imagine him as Angels son and one that grew up as a hard as nails warrior in a hell dimension.

I think issues with Connor come down to writing and other things; I think VK did a good job of acting, but the material he had to work with was less then stellar.

 

[Btvs fan]

My assumption was that as Holtz was raising him to go after Angel, he would at least be telling him what he looks like.



Not unique to Angel. Ageing attempts in older series were, shall we say, less than wonderful. Nowadays they're better with CGI and at least having the ability to reasonably predict what a person will look like when they are older.



I think issues with Connor come down to writing and other things; I think VK did a good job of acting, but the material he had to work with was less then stellar.

But he knew that he'd immediately appear in Angels place after tearing through time and space from a hell dimension ?

 

[NotASlayer]

But he knew that he'd immediately appear in Angels place after tearing through time and space from a hell dimension ?

From what I can recall, wasn't Connor's presence expected? Though he was described as something else. I assumed that they'd put some planning into him coming through; Holtz did appear to have spent Connor's entire life setting things up.

Post automatically merged: 38 minutes ago

The slugs were referring to something they were fleeing, called "the Destroyer." Which turned out to be Connor.

 

[Btvs fan]

From what I can recall, wasn't Connor's presence expected? Though he was described as something else. I assumed that they'd put some planning into him coming through; Holtz did appear to have spent Connor's entire life setting things up.

Post automatically merged: 38 minutes ago

The slugs were referring to something they were fleeing, called "the Destroyer." Which turned out to be Connor.

Yeah but Connors presence was not expected and he did not know he'd land where he did, he was using the slugs to find him away out