Angel Season 4 Rewatch

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Ok so the most controversial of Angel seasons. How is it on the rewatch ?

Deep Down - There's some good stuff here. Wesleys "Ill take away your bucket" is still a great line. Fred's zapping Connor with the Taser and her sense of her betrayal are all good. Some (not all) of the dream sequences are also good.
Where it falls down though, is basically how Angel behaves and the cop out at the end. When Angel tells Connor he didn't kill Holtz, instead of yelling liar and not believing him Connor is "even if" Huh !! But for me the real issue is Angel. After threatening an emotionally and psychologically abused young man who HE KNOWS has been tricked, he then tells Connor he loves him before kicking him out on the street. Thats gas lighting and awful behaviour. No other word to describe it.
As an episode its good but the writers let Angel off way to easy on this.

Ground State - Im in 2 minds about Gwen. On the one hand she's enjoyable and fun to watch but on the other she feels more like an XMen character with her powers and her look and dialogue feel a bit of a copy of Faith but without the vulnerability that under cut the tufe . Iv not got to those episodes yet but its noticeable she's not around when Faith is because she copy's her quite a bit.
Overall still a good fun heist episode.
The Axis of Pythia is basically a glorified glow lamp 😄

Anyway despite some issues which I listed Iv enjoyed both episodes so far
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I just watched these two eps last night!
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
I love Gwen, probably because I love Faith, but yeah she feels like an X men character at times. But still kinda cool. Wish we got more of her!
I thinks season 4 starts out with the potential to be Angel's best season. then they go and torture Charisma and use poor Vincent to do it... it didn't ruin his career, thank god, but she looked like the Great Whore of Babylon who eats babies... and I don't think anyone would ever want to have that image in mind when she's playing someone's mum or someone's wife or teacher... she's not the kind of actor that Gary Oldman is (he's able to inhabit just about ANY character... b/c he's one of the greatest actors of the century (last 100 years, inclusive of the 21st century) Plus, Charisma's not a man, and men can get away with a lot of villainy without being tarred with the sick slut brush.

So... all that said to say... this season begins with a heck of imagination... it pops in a way nothing that came before did... but... sadly, vendetta ruined it... and I think it doomed the series. Killing off Fred killed off the last of the joy... and a series that was darker and more adult really needed the lightness and colour that both women added.

Wesley turned into a scary character. This is really good for drama. It makes him someone I wouldn't turn my back on, or want my daughter to date, but he is really, really pretty terrifying and he does inhabit the role... He's a very different man from the empty suit that slunk away from Sunnydale after being carried off on a stretcher while teenagers (many with no supernatural experience) fought the fight.

Tazing Connor was both one of Fred's most decisive and powerful and basest moments. He was out of control and he betrayed them... but he was utterly broken, and I think that was if not the last straw, it was A last straw. He didn't know how to trust people. He did not learn that he could be disciplined and loved. he just learned brutality from Fred, after growing up with a bitter, broken and brutal man - Holtz.

Angel is pitiful. Yet, Angel is not actually in possession of all the information that we the audience have. I'm not sure he ever knows that Holtz faked his vampire murder. But... this is where being a vampire is unhelpful. He is not ruled by the same emotional core than humans are... and when he's hurt and scared and angry... he is dangerous in a way few humans can be. Connor is emotionally essentially a little boy. He's had NO exposure to any of the rules of family, society and any part of modern life... plus... Holtz. He is possibly on par with a slayer in fighting skills because he grew up fighting. He's a feral boy who is as blindsided as he his angry. Angel has no clue. Angel does all the wrong things. The only person who shows him any empathy is the Trojan Horse CordeliaFake. The tragedy (and vomit inducing nightmare fuel) begins.

My biggest hero for a lot of this is Fred who survives in the bowels of the city and gets actual answers out of that. And Lorne.
 
DeepBlueJoy said:
I thinks season 4 starts out with the potential to be Angel's best season. then they go and torture Charisma and use poor Vincent to do it... it didn't ruin his career, thank god, but she looked like the Great Whore of Babylon who eats babies... and I don't think anyone would ever want to have that image in mind when she's playing someone's mum or someone's wife or teacher... she's not the kind of actor that Gary Oldman is (he's able to inhabit just about ANY character... b/c he's one of the greatest actors of the century (last 100 years, inclusive of the 21st century) Plus, Charisma's not a man, and men can get away with a lot of villainy without being tarred with the sick slut brush.

So... all that said to say... this season begins with a heck of imagination... it pops in a way nothing that came before did... but... sadly, vendetta ruined it... and I think it doomed the series. Killing off Fred killed off the last of the joy... and a series that was darker and more adult really needed the lightness and colour that both women added.

Wesley turned into a scary character. This is really good for drama. It makes him someone I wouldn't turn my back on, or want my daughter to date, but he is really, really pretty terrifying and he does inhabit the role... He's a very different man from the empty suit that slunk away from Sunnydale after being carried off on a stretcher while teenagers (many with no supernatural experience) fought the fight.

Tazing Connor was both one of Fred's most decisive and powerful and basest moments. He was out of control and he betrayed them... but he was utterly broken, and I think that was if not the last straw, it was A last straw. He didn't know how to trust people. He did not learn that he could be disciplined and loved. he just learned brutality from Fred, after growing up with a bitter, broken and brutal man - Holtz.

Angel is pitiful. Yet, Angel is not actually in possession of all the information that we the audience have. I'm not sure he ever knows that Holtz faked his vampire murder. But... this is where being a vampire is unhelpful. He is not ruled by the same emotional core than humans are... and when he's hurt and scared and angry... he is dangerous in a way few humans can be. Connor is emotionally essentially a little boy. He's had NO exposure to any of the rules of family, society and any part of modern life... plus... Holtz. He is possibly on par with a slayer in fighting skills because he grew up fighting. He's a feral boy who is as blindsided as he his angry. Angel has no clue. Angel does all the wrong things. The only person who shows him any empathy is the Trojan Horse CordeliaFake. The tragedy (and vomit inducing nightmare fuel) begins.

My biggest hero for a lot of this is Fred who survives in the bowels of the city and gets actual answers out of that. And Lorne.
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He does. He even knows Justine killed Holtz with an Ice pick and tells Connor that in the episode.
Like I said Angel is basically a gas lighter. He tells Connor then kicks a mentally abused kid onto the streets
 
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@thetopher
The House Always Wins - After doing the Casino episode last season the writers thought, hey lets go the whole hogg and do an episode in Vegas ! Its enjoyable enough if a little obvious in its metaphor about gambling in Vegas. Plus the whole Cordelia ex machina to get Angel out of the spell was a bit ....

Slouching Towards Bethlehem - This is normally considered one of the most boring episodes of the season and on rewatch.... Yeah its not great
The Wesley and Lilah scenes are excellent and highlight of the episode. Wesley thinking he's fooled Lilah only to be fooled in turn is delightful to watch. The rest of the episode is oh so boring.
The whole amnesia Cordy and people trying to hide stuff from her is so so uninteresting.
Also Angels complete lack of concern over whether his son is hurt after the Wolfram and Hart attack and mocking where he lives was a bit much. Hello you literally kicked him out 2 episodes ago and his priority is his own ego that Cordy chose not to go back with him. Basically he comes across as a complete awful person but Im not sure the writers realised that when they did this.
Overall not a good one
 
In fairness to Angel in the first episode he's suffered months of psychological torture and is so weak he can barely stand, he doesn't know what Connor's reaction will be to his return- if Connor will believe him or attack him, being incredibly volatile and all, so Angel bluffs to quickly send Connor away from his friends. Prudent and pragmatic for everyone involved I feel.


The season starts weak and a bit fragmented but once The Beast shows up it gets apocalyptically awesome and doesn't let up. Certainly a contrast to Buffy's 'running on the spot' end of the world S7
 
thetopher said:
In fairness to Angel in the first episode he's suffered months of psychological torture and is so weak he can barely stand, he doesn't know what Connor's reaction will be to his return- if Connor will believe him or attack him, being incredibly volatile and all, so Angel bluffs to quickly send Connor away from his friends. Prudent and pragmatic for everyone involved I feel.


The season starts weak and a bit fragmented but once The Beast shows up it gets apocalyptically awesome and doesn't let up. Certainly a contrast to Buffy's 'running on the spot' end of the world S7
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Angel wasn't weak as he was shoving Connor into a Wall quite easily. Plus the whole insults of he's less whiny with the truth ... Honestly Angel doesn't come across well. Especially as in the following episodes he's basically the same.
 
@Fuffy Baith @silvermoon @DeepBlueJoy @hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @Kendar
Ok Supersymmetrey - Its a good episode and Fred's rage over finding out Sidel and plan to murder him while really well acted by Amy Acker feels like a wasted character opportunity. Especially maybe have her re-evaluate how she thinks of Connor and his own plot towards Angel over Holyz death. Instead we have Gunn murder the Professor and (not jumping the gun to much given everyone has already seen this show) instead Fred becomes a possession argued over by Wes and Gunn.
It should've been Fred that murdered the Proffesor and it would've better for the story. I guess the writers wanted to keep Fred pure and not a murderer !
Speaking of Wes, his relationship with Lilah is great and his obsession over Fred is played very creepy (this it is, next season its true love) in this episode with him watching her and helping her plan the Professor murder. Its great stuff to watch.
This is also the episode that starts Cordy/Connor with Cordy kissing Connor. And yes this is Cordelia and not Jasmine who won't be woken up till the next episode. Im sorry but even without your memories she should know its not a good idea to be kissing an emotionally messed up teenager especially one that she knows she's had a parental relationship with, albiet not the details as well as the possibility of having a relationship with his father (again not the details)
While Im not as bothered as others about the relationship, it does feel more like for OOU reasons than for story purposes.
Just for clarification Cordelia is a 22 year old character played by a 32 year old woman at this point while Connor is a 17 year old boy played by a 22 year old.
Overall a good episode but missed an opportunity to be great.
 
NotASlayer said:
I wonder if they messed up the timeline for that kiss then?
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They messed up a lot things and were winging it. Without jumping the gun to much. After Jasmine/Cordy sleeps with Connor she's shocked and appalled at herself when no one is around. She would have no reason to say or think that that. In fact the opposite, this is meant to be part of her plan.
 
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@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @thetopher @NoShip @silvermoon
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OK so Angel Season 4 has a bad reputation but for me it batted 2 Sixes one after the other

Spin the Bottle - 10/10 I really love this episode. Quite possibly Joss Whedon's best written and directed Angel episode. Essentially its redoing Tabula Rasa but on Angel and better. I was laughing out loud at Angel/Liam realising he doesn't have an Irish Accent 😂 Also Lorne breaking the Fourth Wall was a touch of gold that TR just didn't have and "Those were some amazing products lets think about buying some" after what would've been an add break 😂😂

Apocalypse Nowish 10/10 This time for different reasons. The rise of The Beast (great make up) and the epic battle he has on the Night Club Roof Top with Angel and Co is one of the best fight scenes of either show.
And the earlier scene with Gunn and Fred and the rats. I can totally relate from a real life experience of that horror.
Then the episode ends with the Reign of Fire and blotting out the sun. A terrific episode
 
NotASlayer said:
Yes, that's a bit of a botch.
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Iv just done Habeas Corpses and Cordelias reactions and actions clearly don't make sense if she's meant to be Jasmine
That said leaving that aside and its great episode. The Wolfram and Heart lock down.
The scene of Gavin saying the threats Lilah should say down the phone is hilarious as is her realisation that she's following Connor whose heading towards the Beast 😂
Also the scene of her and Wesley in the Sewer is touching. She weren't wrong in the last episode about Wesleys breakup really being just about Fred and all the moral talk was just bs. Very much so in this episode when he tried to leave Gunn for dead.
Overall 9/10
@thetopher you weren't wrong about the Beast arc being strong, it is and a great run of episodes. At least 4 episodes in a row
 
Btvs fan said:
Angel wasn't weak as he was shoving Connor into a Wall quite easily.
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Dude, that was like the last dregs of his energy, inn reality he could barely stand let along fight. How is he going to defend himself or his friends if Connor is allowed to hang around, getting ideas? He clearly couldn't take the chance.
 
Kendar said:
I've commented before that he seemed so unlike what we'd seen of Angelus before that I honestly thought it was Angel pulling a fake. Note that we never seen him kill a human.
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My headcanon for this, is that as Angel himself lightens up, perhaps that also affects Angelus. When we first meet Angelus in season 2 of Buffy, Angel was still brooding and reserved and didn't make jokes or smile much. But in his own show he lightens up with the gang, and becomes a bit more fun. I like to think this subconsciously affects Angelus since he's always there deep down just waiting to come out.
 
Fuffy Baith said:
My headcanon for this, is that as Angel himself lightens up, perhaps that also affects Angelus. When we first meet Angelus in season 2 of Buffy, Angel was still brooding and reserved and didn't make jokes or smile much. But in his own show he lightens up with the gang, and becomes a bit more fun. I like to think this subconsciously affects Angelus since he's always there deep down just waiting to come out.
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But he's not just lighter, he's just stupid, (just mouthing off at a bar with his buddies) well out the cage anyway. In the cage he's this clever insightful person.
 
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Ok so Awakening and Angel comes across as the most self centered individual imaginable.
He basically decides to lose his soul and become Angelus because Cordelia (well Jasmine) mentions that Angelus is smarter. Thats it a bruised ego changes his mind after telling Wesley (who seems to want it just to go head to head with Angelus) no.
His fantasy of perfect happiness is everyone apologising to him and him telling his traumatised son to get over it.
Even the Beast shows up and is begging Angel to join him before Angel kills him.
Actually no, not everyone, Lorne/Gunn and Fred barely figure, except for Gunn shown being clumsy.
Then he sleeps with Cordelia while moaning Buffys name !! That was just such a pathetic cop out by the writers and not necessary.
Ok overall the episode is serviceable as an episode I guess but Angel himself is portrayed as real narcissist and dislikable which brings it down for me.
5/10
 
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