Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[Skanky Vamp]

Because it's not a selfless act meant for her. It's self-serving. He wants her back for his own selfish ends. I don't remember Buffy asking Spike to get a soul.

He never said it was a selfless act or that she asked him. He got the soul for her, so that he could bed her again. He got the soul to continue to have sexual relations. He got the soul for Buffy. I don't see where saying he got the soul for Buffy means it has to be an altruistic thing. It's not a lie.

I don't think it was like hearts and flowers 'let me be a great man and get this soul' but no one can ever make me think that he DIDNT get the soul for Buffy. She was the only reason he got it. (although, as i have stated numerous times in the past I dont believe he went there specifically for a soul but thats a different matter)

It's not different than a guy bringing home flowers for his mrs. Hey, I got these for you... so that I can get repaid for them later tonight. It's the same thing with Spike getting the soul for Buffy.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

He never said it was a selfless act or that she asked him. He got the soul for her, so that he could bed her again. He got the soul to continue to have sexual relations. He got the soul for Buffy. I don't see where saying he got the soul for Buffy means it has to be an altruistic thing. It's not a lie.

I don't think it was like hearts and flowers 'let me be a great man and get this soul' but no one can ever make me think that he DIDNT get the soul for Buffy. She was the only reason he got it. (although, as i have stated numerous times in the past I dont believe he went there specifically for a soul but thats a different matter)

It's not different than a guy bringing home flowers for his mrs. Hey, I got these for you... so that I can get repaid for them later tonight. It's the same thing with Spike getting the soul for Buffy.

That’s a great pot you got there... can I stir it??

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That’s a great pot you got there... can I stir it??

I have a lot of good pots.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

He got the soul for her, so that he could bed her again.

He did not get his soul FOR THE BENEFIT of Buffy but he did go get his soul so that he could continue a relationship with her.

Semantics.

@EarthLogic obviously I don’t believe in editing. Hence “best” instead of “beat” lol

 

[EarthLogic]

I think you guys are essentially arguing semantics here. The phrase 'for her' can be used either in a romanticisation of his actions to argue that it was in some ways a gift/service/benefit, or more matter-of-factly to argue that she was the reason - i.e. the motivating factor.

I think Mr Pole is referring to the latter. And I agree.

 

[NileQT87]

You just said it. He got the soul to get what HE WANTS. He didn't give a f- about what Buffy wanted in the equation. That's why it's a selfish act for himself and only for himself. A selfless William (who is not Spike the demon and an entirely different entity) would have instead understood that what Spike did was for selfish reasons of getting what he wanted, would have admitted that what Spike the demon did was not for any noble reason and would have told Buffy it was perfectly understandable if she never wanted to be with him, rather than jumping into trying once again to get her.

What Spike did was not a selfless act and the soul was not gotten to be a good man because of guilt or because of wanting to be a hero to help people because he doesn't want to see them suffer if he can do something about it (that's how Angel sees his soul, which is not Spike even with a soul). He said it a few times that he never cared about his victims or guilt--that's not why he got the soul. He bragged for years right to Buffy's face about his victims and was proud of it. Spike basically committed suicide with the hope that Buffy would give him vicariously everything he wanted as a reward he thought he deserved, because he realized that he would never now get what he wanted after going too far. He didn't once care about what Buffy wanted or what was better, happier and healthier for her.

William was all too happy to take credit for Spike's ignoble selfishness to try to get Buffy for himself.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm always up for somantics.

 

[RomanticSoul]

You just said it. He got the soul to get what HE WANTS.

Exactly. It had nothing to do with Buffy. Buffy was his end game to achieve, nothing more. The price he thinks he deserves after, as you said, committing suicide. He did it for himself to get what he wants. He's said it himself for crying out loud.

 

[crazysoulless]

Buffy was way too young. Imaging Angel having a relationship with Dawn!!! Gross, he' such a pedophile 😱

I actually want to pull out my hair whenever I hear this 😡 Unfortunately, I'm not good at clap backs 😳 Any suggestions?

More to say on this....

Buffy was created to be the Protector, the lead, the Guardian of the Hellmouth. She's a Biblical Eve.
Dawn was created to be protected, the little sister/daughter of the lead, which was the reason she was in human form. She's a daughter of Eve.

Buffy is the story of the hero's journey, the Chosen One/Christ metaphor, the Disney princess.
Dawn is the story of the Inner Child growing up, the next generation.

Buffy & Angel are equals
* They became heroes/champions the same week.
* They are each other's first love.
* They have a martyr guilt complex.
* She has her pout and he his brood.
* She is mother to a daughter and he is father to a son.
* She spent months in Heaven and he spent months in Hell.
* She rescued Anne from slavery in a demon dimension and he rescued Winifred from slavery in a demon dimension
* She led the Scooby Gang & Watchers Council and he led the Fang Gang & Wolfram & Hart.
* She chopped off the arm of a WC woman (Gwendolyn) and he chopped off the hand of a WR&H man (Lindsey).
* She had misery sex with Spike and he had despair sex with Darla.

Dawn would be to Angel what Connor is to him.

 

[crazysoulless]

Buffy loved soulless Spike but would never love soulless Angel

Spike chose to get a soul *because* Buffy did NOT love him. He thought being a "vampire with a soul" would make Buffy love him like she loves Angel.

Spike: You felt something for me last night.
Buffy: Not love.

Spike: Do you even like me?
Buffy: Sometimes.

Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do etc etc (realizes from the look on Buffy's face that's not what's going on, quickly changes tactic) Oh, and, Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time and you're just---

Buffy: I can't love you.

Buffy: He's everything I hate.

Buffy: sleeps with a vampire she hates.

Spike: Then why won't you sleep with me again?
Buffy: Because I don't love you.

Spike: No matter how much you try to convince yourself it's not, it's real.
Buffy: I think it is....for you.

Spike: You love me.
Buffy: No. I don't.

Buffy: Ask me again why I could never love you!

Dawn: You love him?
Buffy: No.

Spike: Why are you helping me? It's not love. We both know that.

IOHEFY
Buffy/James: You don't just wake up and stop loving someone!

Beauty & the Beasts

Buffy: He changed. He--
Mr. Plack: got mean? But you didn't stop loving him.

When Angel suddenly became Angelus again, nobody knew it was possible to retrieve his soul. Nobody had been down that road yet. So it was hard for Buffy to experience Angel as her first boyfriend, first person she was ever in love with, and her first lover, to then look at him and only see a demon wearing Angel's body and in possession of his memories.

I think it is extremely misogynist to ignore ALL of the times Buffy stated that she didn't love Spike and to say "oh, she was just in denial, she didn't want to admit she was in love with him but Spike knew she was."

Buffy: How dare you tell me how I feel!

Buffy wasn't unsure if she loved Spike. She knows what it's like to love someone she doesn't want to love. That is what happened with Angelus.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Spike chose to get a soul *because* Buffy did NOT love him. He thought being a "vampire with a soul" would make Buffy love him like she loves Angel.

Spike: You felt something for me last night.
Buffy: Not love.

Spike: Do you even like me?
Buffy: Sometimes.

Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do etc etc (realizes from the look on Buffy's face that's not what's going on, quickly changes tactic) Oh, and, Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time and you're just---

Buffy: I can't love you.

Buffy: He's everything I hate.

Buffy: sleeps with a vampire she hates.

Spike: Then why won't you sleep with me again?
Buffy: Because I don't love you.

Spike: No matter how much you try to convince yourself it's not, it's real.
Buffy: I think it is....for you.

Spike: You love me.
Buffy: No. I don't.

Buffy: Ask me again why I could never love you!

Dawn: You love him?
Buffy: No.

Spike: Why are you helping me? It's not love. We both know that.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt ya'll.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But loving unsouled Spike is not the same as loving Angelus. She could not love Angelus and love Spike. They are not same thing... not even close. I can't fathom any possible way that Buffy could ever love Angelus.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I can't fathom any possible way that Buffy could ever love Angelus.

I agree with this. She does not love Angelus. But also, she did not love unsouled Spike.

But let me ask you all this. If Angelus had been the one with the chip could you have seen Buffy fall into bed with him? Ignore for a moment that Angelus would have hired other vampires to do all of his damage and/or would have literally clawed at his own brain to get the chip out and/or would have killed himself rather than living as a neutered demon. If Angelus got the chip and Buffy had history with Angel and they could not re-ensoul him could you concieve of her sleeping with him? Because honestly I can't. And that to me is why Buffy and unsouled Spike is so still after all of these years incredibly weird for me.

 

[Taaroko]

I could maybe see it happening if she was black-out drunk, but not otherwise.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But let me ask you all this. If Angelus had been the one with the chip could you have seen Buffy fall into bed with him?

No. I can't imagine that ever happening.

And that to me is why Buffy and unsouled Spike is so still after all of these years incredibly weird for me.

But again, it's two different things. She knew and fell in love with Angel- hell even before she knew he was a vampire- and then he became Angelus (arguably partly because of her) and then he went on a rampage killing people and torturing people she knew.

Angelus was competent and a threat, Spike wasn't ever really presented as either of those. Not a direct threat to her the way Angelus was. So... yeah I could see her loving an unsouled Spike long before Angelus. There would be way too much baggage for Angelus.

But that's why her loving and forgiving Angel is also so important.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

killing people and torturing people she knew.

And Spike did this as well didn't he? He tortured Angel twice (WML/Into the Dark). He was on a killing rampage as well School Hard/Halloween. He tried to kill her a number of times before he became neutered School Hard/Halloween/sent assassins in WML. I'm not arguing the virtues (or lack thereof) of Angelus v. Spike but I feel that we aren't giving Spike enough credit here. He wasn't initially presented as "non-threatening." I have the same bad habit of forgetting he was the big bad of Season 2 but he was until Angelus upstaged him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And Spike did this as well didn't he? He tortured Angel twice (WML/Into the Dark). He was on a killing rampage as well School Hard/Halloween. He tried to kill her a number of times before he became neutered School Hard/Halloween/sent assassins in WML. I'm not arguing the virtues (or lack thereof) of Angelus v. Spike but I feel that we aren't giving Spike enough credit here. He wasn't initially presented as "non-threatening." I have the same bad habit of forgetting he was the big bad of Season 2 but he was until Angelus upstaged him.

But Buffy was not responsible for Spike... she, at least in her mind, was responsible for Angelus. That's the difference.

How more non-threatening can you be when, as a big bad vampire, you get scared off by the slayers mother. Her mother. Come on.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

But Buffy was not responsible for Spike... she, at least in her mind, was responsible for Angelus. That's the difference.

I can buy this distinction as the most significant one. Although arguably as the slayer she is responsible for killing all vampires to protect people. And you know she kinda failed miserably at that with regards to Spike.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Although arguably as the slayer she is responsible for killing all vampires to protect people. And you know she kinda failed miserably at that with regards to Spike.

And with Angel. She wasn't a very good vampire slayer when you really consider it.

 

[Taaroko]

Yes, but in Angelus's case, there was an emotional reason that killing him would be hard, whereas with Spike, it was just...writers caving to fan demand.

Not to mention that she did, eventually, get around to being able to kill Angelus. The timing was just super unfortunate.