Bangel or Spuffy? #2

[bespangeled]

Try using the insert quote function.

Just pick your dialogue - then click on the =quote that pops up underneath. This gives enough info that it's easy to follow.

uh I can see it!

RomanticSoul said: ↑
Spike fans, obviously.
so, if I'm 'Spike fans' what this makes you? Spike haters?

And where is Romantic Soul - an earlier version of this thread?
 
@Snyder: tks, didn't know. what you mean with earlier version?

It took me many months to discover it. The Bangel or Spuffy thread has an earlier part that was locked (normal when the thread gets to a certain length). This is Bangel or Spuffy #2, and I can't find Romantic soul here.

 

[RomanticSoul]

so, if I'm 'Spike fans' what this makes you? Spike haters?

Whatever floats your boat. I'm not a Spike hater. I'm a hater of the creative team who warped the show and it's characters to fit him in as their new favorite pet.

nope, again. that was a joke, again. I apologize, again. will never ever make jokes with you, k? and you can count what you want. Or not, whatever

Again whatever you wish. I will just remember you have a double standart when discussing the two vampires and adjust my replies accordingly. Or not.

when he burned on the Hellmouth, when he refused the necromancer offer, when he chose to save Fred instead of himself, when he fought with the fang gang in ats

Funny how everything except one that you listed were all from AtS. Not everyone watched AtS so there should have been some positive character stuff on BtVS aside from glorious sunshine burning.

eh don't care what you go by. comics are canon and are part of this forum

Sorry but Whedon has to pick one. Either the comics are canon or they are fanfiction but they can't be both. You pick canon. I pick fanfiction. And that's where the trouble starts in these kinds of discussions.

that's the demon's way of taking care of their needs. what, you expect a unsouled vampire to work as a clerk?

Not all things I listed were related to soulles Spike. Thought that was obvious. But tell me then...how does Spike provide for himself these days?

when unsouled? yeah, may be. except for the 'Angel's family and friends' because there is no one there who's angel's family or friend. and only in season 4 and 5. in season 6 who would give him money? Giles? he was gone. Buffy? she hadn't enough for herself.
Souled though it's another story and like gite63 pointed out now spike is working with the police. and with the scoobies of course.

There was no Angel's family and friends? Did I imagine AtS S5 or something? I thought Spike was in that Season. Maybe my memory is faulty.

 

[Snyder]

Whatever floats your boat. I'm not a Spike hater. I'm a hater of the creative team who warped the show and it's characters to fit him in as their new favorite pet.

that's your problem

Again whatever you wish. I will just remember you have a double standart when discussing the two vampires and adjust my replies accordingly. Or not.

whatever makes you feel better 🙄

Funny how everything except one that you listed were all from AtS. Not everyone watched AtS so there should have been some positive character stuff on BtVS aside from glorious sunshine burning.

thread is about spuffy, and spuffy goes from btvs to ats to the comics and I'll pick what I want from where I want

Sorry but Whedon has to pick one. Either the comics are canon or they are fanfiction but they can't be both. You pick canon. I pick fanfiction. And that's where the trouble starts in these kinds of discussions.

you are the one making the trouble. This thread is about spuffy, not only the show's spuffy and this board has a whole area about the comics so me and others have all the right to talk about them. Deal
 

It took me many months to discover it. The Bangel or Spuffy thread has an earlier part that was locked (normal when the thread gets to a certain length). This is Bangel or Spuffy #2, and I can't find Romantic soul here.

don't know why you can't, she is definitely here 😛

 

[Taake]

A) Let's watch the tone and the eye-rolling with each other, and keep the discussion from getting needlessly hostile or passive-aggressive
B) Avoid lumping people into groups who do this or that... "Spike fans" or "Angel fans" whatever, those generalizations are often unnecessary and hurtful or plain mislabling.
C) Avoid dubbing other people "haters" because they disagree with you.

It's never about one person making trouble, it's about these discussions getting emotional/heated and devolving into name-calling or passive-aggressive statements rather than an actual discussion of the topic. If you're terribly offended by someone's opinions of your ship, please just ignore it or let it drop until you've calmed down and can respond calmly and rationally.

Now...
let's all take a breath and get back to "Bangel or Spuffy?" and try to keep our heads, yeah?

 

[Snyder]

I was musing about the reasons I prefer Spuffy to Bangle and well, bangel just makes me want to throw up in my mouth but that's a feeling because it's so cheesy and unrealistic. bleah. but if I think of it the key word is the improvement. I can't remember who brought the word up first but yeah that's it.
Spike improves and his relationship with Buffy improves. Spike starts as an evil vampire and ends as a hero, spuffy starts as enemies and end as a couple. With Bangel it's the opposite of improvement, it's a worsening for both Angel as a character and their relationship. It's static, nothing does really change and both, Angel and Bangel, are full of inconsistencies. Also I just don't like Buffy's character when Angel is involved. She is so stupid and naive where he is concerned and because of him she does some very stupid and bad things in those first seasons. it made me lose respect for her. luckily she has improved as well and her love choice are an example of that 😀

 

[GoSpuffy]

I think Bangel suits a teenage love when it's all angst and drama. It's just hard to make that interesting for the long haul. They look nice together and they have they sexual attraction but they both have to be leaders and what they both really need is a support team.

Spuffy is just so interesting, you never know what those kookie kids are going to do next. They have all the rIght chemistry and also look good together. But so much more dimension added with the whole how can they over come the obstacles that stand in their way angle. Add in that you know that no matter what Spike has Buffy's back and she can call the shots and what's not to love?

Everyone's talking about the past but I like to think of the future. Angel has shown through his actions that his work comes first. Spike has shown buffy comes first. Moving forward spuffy makes sense. They are a team; partners, lovers, friends. They have what it takes for adults to make it to the end game

 

[Taake]

well, bangel just makes me want to throw up in my mouth

These kind of comments are really unnecessary and mostly seemed aimed to provoke and intentionally upset others.

I think Bangel suits a teenage love when it's all angst and drama. It's just hard to make that interesting for the long haul. They look nice together and they have they sexual attraction but they both have to be leaders and what they both really need is a support team.

Spuffy is just so interesting, you never know what those kookie kids are going to do next. They have all the rIght chemistry and also look good together. But so much more dimension added with the whole how can they over come the obstacles that stand in their way angle. Add in that you know that no matter what Spike has Buffy's back and she can call the shots and what's not to love?

Everyone's talking about the past but I like to think of the future. Angel has shown through his actions that his work comes first. Spike has shown buffy comes first. Moving forward spuffy makes sense. They are a team; partners, lovers, friends. They have what it takes for adults to make it to the end game

Good post.
I think for me what doesn't work about Spuffy is that "Spike has shown Buffy comes first", I agree and for me their relationship is and always will be one of unequals. Also I do feel that their relationship is the most immature one, but we all see different things in these pairings. 🙂

 

[Snyder]

These kind of comments are really unnecessary and mostly seemed aimed to provoke and intentionally upset others.

not my intention at all, I apologize if someone was upset

 

[RomanticSoul]

thread is about spuffy, and spuffy goes from btvs to ats to the comics and I'll pick what I want from where I want

The thread is not about Spuffy. There is a whole forum for that.

you are the one making the trouble. This thread is about spuffy, not only the show's spuffy and this board has a whole area about the comics so me and others have all the right to talk about them. Deal

You have clearly missed the discussions we had before you signed up on the forum. One of the big ones was 'what is canon and what isn't'. The trouble I was refering to was what each individual sees as canon and how that differs for everyone which makes some discussion problematic, hence trouble. How that somehow translates to me 'making trouble' is beyond me.

As for Bangel or Spuffy, I'd pick neither. If forced to pick one I'd picked B/A for the sole reason that it was all about Buffy and her character development, as it should be.

 

[Snyder]

The thread is not about Spuffy. There is a whole forum for that.

of course the thread is about Spuffy, it's there in the title

You have clearly missed the discussions we had before you signed up on the forum. One of the big ones was 'what is canon and what isn't'. The trouble I was refering to was what each individual sees as canon and how that differs for everyone which makes some discussion problematic, hence trouble. How that somehow translates to me 'making trouble' is beyond me.

A lot of things are up to debate and to the question what is canon and what is not. Well, not really but that's another topic... Point is that ats and the BTVS comics are not among those things. Like it or not but they are canon, officially canon. So you trying to silence me and dismissing my arguments saying that some people don't read the comics or haven't watched ATS translates as you 'making the trouble' meaning you raising a problem that doesn't exist. I used the word trouble because that's the word you used first and I just went with it and I think it's very clear that that was the meaning. I don't know why it was misinterpreted but I honestly don't feel I said nothing wrong or that I need to apologize, else I would. Even so after the mod's intervention I thought it was proper and respectful to let the matter go, because that's what people should do after a mod's intervention. And that's all I have to say on this.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Guys, let's take a step back - no need for this fighting to continue.

 

[NeonNightLight]

I think Bangel suits a teenage love

Sorry, don't mean to single you out as I'm sure many people have said this in the thread--it just recently caught my eye. But whenever I see Bangel being called a "teenage love" or "teenage romance", I can't help but think that is just like SMG once saying that Spuffy is "just 20 something really good sex!". I mean, would you call up your just a highschool ex-boyfriend years later when your mother passed away, wait hours at the funeral, and then cuddle with him under a tree? Or years later after that, when he suddenly shows up, shortly make out with him and stay stuff like "I just want to bask" as you gaze at him? Bangel has far surpassed the label of just a teenage romance, and even as Buffy and Angel have changed, their caring for each other has not.

Also

It's just hard to make that interesting for the long haul.

Let's be honest, it's hard to make *any* relationship interesting in the long haul on TV. It's precisely for that reason Joss breaks up most of the relationships on the show, for not having enough interesting story lines for it, or fear of it getting too boring. Such as other TV shows playing out the will-they-won't-they, reuniting and then repeatedly breaking up them up (cough FRIENDS), etc. all to keep the audience on their toes and still tuning in to root for the couple they want to inevitably have their big get-together.

 

[GoSpuffy]

@NeonNightLight that comment isn't meant as any kind of slight. How many people do you know actually date only one person and then spend their life together? Not many. Cory and Topanga are the exception not the rule. If you met your partner at 15 and are still together at 25, nice for you, but pretty unusual. I kind of like seeing the journey of Buffy growing as a person, taking different things from different relationships and growing as a person. It doesn't devalue who she was in the past to have her grow up and move forward. She learned things through her relationships with Oliver Pike, Angel, Riley, Parker etc. I get it, you like Bangel, no problem. This is a great place to talk about all the good things you see in that relationship just like I get to say what I like about Spuffy. BtVS is for entertainment purposes so of course how interesting a relationship is becomes a factor to the writers. And since it is season 10 and spuffy continues it provides proof that the writers still have a story to tell that many of us enjoy following.

 

[bespangeled]

Honestly, I think the show was best when the tension didn't come from romance, sex, love, whatever. We tend to define Buffy through those two a lot, and that really does subvert the message.

 

[NeonNightLight]

@NeonNightLight that comment isn't meant as any kind of slight. How many people do you know actually date only one person and then spend their life together? Not many. Cory and Topanga are the exception not the rule. If you met your partner at 15 and are still together at 25, nice for you, but pretty unusual. I kind of like seeing the journey of Buffy growing as a person, taking different things from different relationships and growing as a person. It doesn't devalue who she was in the past to have her grow up and move forward. She learned things through her relationships with Oliver Pike, Angel, Riley, Parker etc. I get it, you like Bangel, no problem. This is a great place to talk about all the good things you see in that relationship just like I get to say what I like about Spuffy. BtVS is for entertainment purposes so of course how interesting a relationship is becomes a factor to the writers. And since it is season 10 and spuffy continues it provides proof that the writers still have a story to tell that many of us enjoy following.

I'm a bit confused, Buffy and Angel have both dated past their relationship and found new things (good and bad) from each partner, I never denied that. I never said it was bad to move on and do that either. I'm just saying that no matter how much time passes, Buffy and Angel still have a connection, by which I am not negating any new connections they have formed with friends and lovers.

Well, it's pretty unusual to start having hate-sex with your sworn enemy and then find love with them after being in a mutually abusive relationship. The Buffyverse has a lot of unusual stuff and unconventional romances *shrug*. I'm interested in seeing Buffy and her story evolve as well, and I'm glad you enjoy the Spuffy romance in the comics. However, spuffy continuing is not proof that many enjoy it, after all, I'm sure you've followed stories without liking an aspect of it. In capable hands, I could see the writers putting Angel or Faith or any multitude of characters with Buffy (or in fact, keeping her single), and I don't see how it would devolve her story or her character, if they choose to write in a way which advanced both. Good writing is key.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I'm a bit confused, Buffy and Angel have both dated past their relationship and found new things (good and bad) from each partner, I never denied that. I never said it was bad to move on and do that either. I'm just saying that no matter how much time passes, Buffy and Angel still have a connection, by which I am not negating any new connections they have formed with friends and lovers.

Well, it's pretty unusual to start having hate-sex with your sworn enemy and then find love with them after being in a mutually abusive relationship. The Buffyverse has a lot of unusual stuff and unconventional romances *shrug*. I'm interested in seeing Buffy and her story evolve as well, and I'm glad you enjoy the Spuffy romance in the comics. However, spuffy continuing is not proof that many enjoy it, after all, I'm sure you've followed stories without liking an aspect of it. In capable hands, I could see the writers putting Angel or Faith or any multitude of characters with Buffy (or in fact, keeping her single), and I don't see how it would devolve her story or her character, if they choose to write in a way which advanced both. Good writing is key.

And my saying they had a good "good teenage love" doesn't say anything bad about Buffy and Angel. The story I see with them is that they have a connection but it is a doomed connection. So where you see them being together at the funeral I see them also them realizing it can't be:

BUFFY
It's going to be light soon.
ANGEL
I can stay in town. As long as you
want me.
BUFFY
How's forever? Is forever
good for you?
(then)
There's a bad idea. I'm seriously
needy right now.
Angel strokes some hair from her face. Says tenderly-
ANGEL
Let me worry about the neediness.
I can handle it.
Raw and vulnerable, Buffy looks at him - wanting to believe it. Wanting him closer still. She leans forward and kisses him. He responds gently - meaning to comfort, but the intensity builds quickly, the desire bubbling just under the surface. Buffy would like nothing better to forget herself with him - and he feels it powerfully. They break away from each other, breathing hard.
BUFFY
Told you.
(reluctantly)
You'd better go.
ANGEL
(pained)
I'm sorry.
BUFFY
Don't be. I'm so grateful you came,
Angel. I didn't think I was going to
make it through the night.ANGEL
We have a few more minutes until
I have to go.
Buffy nods, burrows deeper into him.
BUFFY
Good.
Angel closes his arms even tighter around her. They are both pained and comforted by the powerful bond between them.
BUFFY
Good…
And they fall into silence, together until the dawn.

The story I see on screen is that Buffy and Angel wanted to be together but couldn't be because of a pesky curse and because they each had a destiny to full fill that led them in different directions. The story in real life is there is more money to be made off 2 franchises. Either way, Bangel had a time and a place and it seems to be over. Doesn't mean that you can't love what you got but it's pretty unlikely its ever coming back.

Is Buffy going to be with Spike forever? Unlikely, that's not the whedon way. However I'm pretty sure they are pandering to the fact their is a pretty big audience out there that likes to see their spuffy. I hardly think I'm the only one.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that I didn't say anything disrepectful to your ship so I don't understand why your calling me out on my comment. As for hate sex and your other comments, I'm not going to bother answering that because it's all perspective and ours are different. I respect yours, it would be nice if you could do me the same favour.

 

[NeonNightLight]

Either way, Bangel had a time and a place and it seems to be over. Doesn't mean that you can't love what you got but it's pretty unlikely its ever coming back.

You could argue Spuffy was over when Spike burnt up. He had a separate role and destiny on Angel apart from Buffy, because the writers chose to write it that way. And just like they have written Spuffy in the comics again, doesn't mean they couldn't bring Bangel up too. Personally, it doesn't matter to me if it's "ever coming back". I will alway ship Bangel, regardless if they are endgame or not. I appreciate them for what they were and continue to be.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that I didn't say anything disrepectful to your ship so I don't understand why your calling me out on my comment. As for hate sex and your other comments, I'm not going to bother answering that because it's all perspective and ours are different. I respect yours, it would be nice if you could do me the same favour.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you out. I just wanted to voice my opinion on something I saw being said often, and this is a Ship War thread, so I don't think it was unwarranted. But if you see this as an attack or that I'm disrespecting you, which was never my intention, then I'll just end this here.

 

[mackenzie99]

I don't really prefer Bangel or Spuffy now,because id rather see Fuffy 😉
However when I was 12 i was obsessed with Spuffy and just Spike in general so i lean more to spuffy 🙂, I've never really felt the appeal for bangel.

 

[Sternbeeere]

I like Spike far more than Angel, he is a better character(a lot of phases and development), better friend(deep friendship with Dawn, to a point where he stays with her, when noone else remembers her and she partly lost her memories), better lover in both sexual and non -sexual terms(is ready to get his soul due to a missunderstanding and fear of actually commit rape on Buffy, ready to die in order to protect Dawn for Buffy, ready to do everything to help Drusilla, when she was sick and not to forget the sexual kink). He is capable of love and deep feelings even without a soul, I do not know if Angelus is. Additionally his concept of love and passion and love being not nice sometimes is genuine and authentic.
From that point of view i would certainly prefer Spuffy over Bangel. However, there are two other points, i consider, which make the decision not that easy. First, Buffys personality and wishes and second, what i see in the dynamics between the characters. As for the first, Buffy seems to be constantly on the search of the good, calm, nice, protective guy, even if that type never seems to work for her . Angel does represent that type of guy far more than Spike does. Additionally, Buffy seems to have deeper feelings for Angel throughout many seasons, she even kisses him in season 5, when Bangel is over for long time. Therefore, from Buffys perspective it is certainly Bangel.
The second point is the dynamics between Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. Angel and Buffy cannot fullfill eachothers needs, also Angel never really feels confident to be Buffys boyfriend and is easily influenced by other peoples opinions, when they say he is evil and has to leave Buffy. Moreover, Buffy can love and accept Angel, but she never is able to accept Angelus, who is a part of Angel, because her very search and wish for the "good guy".
Spike and Buffy have totally different concepts of love and relationships, which is problematic on long term. And while Spike is able to point Buffys dark sites and subconscious wishes, giving her some things she truly needs and much more love than Angel ever did, Buffy cannot really open up for any of that. Therefore ultimately, i think it is neither Bangel nor Spuffy.
The only person Buffy really opened up with (and kind of abandoned the wish for the "good guy" in the process ) , was Faith in Bad Girls. Also i think Faith is the only one who can really show Buffy, her different sites and with whom Buffy really can connect: in terms of age, being slayer, having dark sites etc. Faith in turn, can learn to restrain her wild nature, once she connects to Buffy. So i see the biggest potential and the best match for Buffy being Faith and ship Fuffy.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I like Spike far more than Angel, he is a better character(a lot of phases and development), better friend(deep friendship with Dawn, to a point where he stays with her, when noone else remembers her and she partly lost her memories), better lover in both sexual and non -sexual terms(is ready to get his soul due to a missunderstanding and fear of actually commit rape on Buffy, ready to die in order to protect Dawn for Buffy, ready to do everything to help Drusilla, when she was sick and not to forget the sexual kink). He is capable of love and deep feelings even without a soul, I do not know if Angelus is. Additionally his concept of love and passion and love being not nice sometimes is genuine and authentic.
From that point of view i would certainly prefer Spuffy over Bangel. However, there are two other points, i consider, which make the decision not that easy. First, Buffys personality and wishes and second, what i see in the dynamics between the characters. As for the first, Buffy seems to be constantly on the search of the good, calm, nice, protective guy, even if that type never seems to work for her . Angel does represent that type of guy far more than Spike does. Additionally, Buffy seems to have deeper feelings for Angel throughout many seasons, she even kisses him in season 5, when Bangel is over for long time. Therefore, from Buffys perspective it is certainly Bangel.
The second point is the dynamics between Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. Angel and Buffy cannot fullfill eachothers needs, also Angel never really feels confident to be Buffys boyfriend and is easily influenced by other peoples opinions, when they say he is evil and has to leave Buffy. Moreover, Buffy can love and accept Angel, but she never is able to accept Angelus, who is a part of Angel, because her very search and wish for the "good guy".
Spike and Buffy have totally different concepts of love and relationships, which is problematic on long term. And while Spike is able to point Buffys dark sites and subconscious wishes, giving her some things she truly needs and much more love than Angel ever did, Buffy cannot really open up for any of that. Therefore ultimately, i think it is neither Bangel nor Spuffy.
The only person Buffy really opened up with (and kind of abandoned the wish for the "good guy" in the process ) , was Faith in Bad Girls. Also i think Faith is the only one who can really show Buffy, her different sites and with whom Buffy really can connect: in terms of age, being slayer, having dark sites etc. Faith in turn, can learn to restrain her wild nature, once she connects to Buffy. So i see the biggest potential and the best match for Buffy being Faith and ship Fuffy.

I like your post and the way you've thought things through from Buffy's perspective. You don't think it's a factory that both Buffy and Faith are hetrosexual? I wish Buffy and Faith were closer and could lean on each other more for support and share there commonalities and become best friends/sisters. If they were bi or gay they would make a great couple but both of them choose male partners, except Buffy that one time with Satsu.