Bangel or Spuffy? #2

[gite63]

Sarah and James at the Paley Fest to celebrate the show's 10th anniversary (2008).

James Marsters Q&A at Wizard World Philadelphia

• James’ thoughts on Spike and Buffy’s first kiss: “When Sarah and I first kissed, she was playing Faith. It was the body switch episode. And I’d never done a film kiss before. We had to have like 14 takes because I kept acting it, and she kept saying, ‘No, James. I mean it’s nice, but in film it’s all about the look of it.’ It became a very technical thing. By the 14th take I just stopped caring, I just wanted to go to the bathroom, and that’s when they were like ‘that’s it!’”
• Teasing by Sarah Michelle Gellar: “Sarah was a great person but she was merciless in season six when I was naked a lot. We jumped networks, and when we went to UPN they were a new network and didn’t have a standards and practices office yet… so we realized, at least for one season, we could do anything we want! Sarah said she’d do the love scenes, but she wasn’t going to show anything. So I’d have a sock as my wardrobe, and she’d say, ‘James, you like my gloves, and I got a jacket today. Have a nice day.’ She’s a wonderful person but she likes to mess around.”

Did they kiss in Who Are You? And the scene was cut! But James got confused, because the first kiss was in Something Blue.

 

[NeonNightLight]

Pointing out that she prefers Angel over Spike, that DB kissed better than JM... I mean, don't get me wrong she is entitled to have her opinions but how she expresses them publicily not even caring that she has a husband or that she can antagonize some fans makes me thing that those comments are subtly intended to strike JM and this combined with some things Marsters said and with the fact that those two are possibly the only two Buffy actors that never meet... yeah I definitely see a grudge there. But as I said it's a feeling I have lol

SMG preferring the character of Angel over Spike doesn't say anything about how she feels about the actors who play them. How exactly is she targeting JM, Spike is just a fictional character he played? Okay, you're saying she's entitled to have her opinions, but then you criticize her because they 'antagonize' some fans... So anything that may upset some Buffy fans shouldn't be said at all? These are fictional ships and a fictional show, people shouldn't feeling 'antagonized' by one simple preference of the actress who plays the main character. I'd say the problem is with the fans if they are getting upset and unfairly attacking SMG for her opinion (which many Spike/Spuffy fans have done in the past), rather than with SMG.

 

[Snyder]

SMG preferring the character of Angel over Spike doesn't say anything about how she feels about the actors who play them.

I disagree. Actors are just normal people and like all normal people they can be influenced in their opinion so it's possible that SMG prefers Angel because she has a thing for DB or that she dislikes Spike because she has a grudge towards JM. If that's true or not she's the only one who knows for sure. I don't and neither do you.

How exactly is she targeting JM, Spike is just a fictional character he played?

That's only a part of what I said and I have explained my reasoning more than enough so no offence but I'm not bothering to repeat them again, especially as I have already said that mine is just a feeling and that it has nothing to do with the thread. If you want you can go read my previous post, for now I'm answering a last time then I'm done with this topic

Okay, you're saying she's entitled to have her opinions, but then you criticize her because they 'antagonize' some fans...

No, I didn't criticize her, I was expressing my opinion because you know I too am entitled to do it. Well actually if I want I'm entitled to criticize as well lol

So anything that may upset some Buffy fans shouldn't be said at all?

Never said that, I'm a promoter of free speech. As long as it's not one-sided

These are fictional ships and a fictional show, people shouldn't feeling 'antagonized' by one simple preference of the actress who plays the main character.

yeah agreed, fans shouldn't feel antagonizes by an actress' opinion, just like they shouldn't get all bothered because another fan says something against the character or the ship or the actor they like. But obviously many do, so it seems that what shouldn't happen has nothing to do with what really happens. Me, I couldn't care less of what SMG or Whedon or anyone else says, I watch the show and decide by myself what I like and what I don't, and I don't need anyone to validate my thoughts. But I stand with my opinion that SMG's comments were personal, disrespectful toward both her husband and her fans, therefore inappropriate and unnecessary and that she has shown a lack of professionalism and wit in expressing them publicily. Now make of that what you want

I'd say the problem is with the fans if they are getting upset and unfairly attacking SMG for her opinion (which many Spike/Spuffy fans have done in the past), rather than with SMG.

yeah, apparently many have the problem of getting upset and unfairly attacking others for their opinion

 

[bespangeled]

I'd say the problem is with the fans if they are getting upset and unfairly attacking SMG for her opinion (which many Spike/Spuffy fans have done in the past), rather than with SMG.

There really is no need to point out any one group of fans and label them. After all, the people here who really loathe Buffy and/or Sarah - and there are more than a few - aren't even Spike or Spuffy fans.

 

[gite63]

I don't think any of them really socialize together - the occasional meetings are news enough to post pictures. Sarah didn't like the last seasons, but according to AH, Sarah wanted to leave the show after the 3rd season.

Yeah, they are not the best of friends, but this is quite common between ex-colleagues.

And even Sarah and David - she posted the Bangel Birthday card for him on her Twitter, Facebook and Instagram (referrencing him as "immortal"...), and on her Birthday, Boreanaz didn't even congratulate her. Did he answer her posts?

 

[NeonNightLight]

There really is no need to point out any one group of fans and label them. After all, the people here who really loathe Buffy and/or Sarah - and there are more than a few - aren't even Spike or Spuffy fans.

I'm being on the topic where the people who have attacked SMG's opinion for favoring Angel over Spike and Bangel over Spuffy have always been Spike/Spuffy fans.
 

Yeah, they are not the best of friends, but this is quite common between ex-colleagues.

And even Sarah and David - she posted the Bangel Birthday card for him on her Twitter, Facebook and Instagram (referrencing him as "immortal"...), and on her Birthday, Boreanaz didn't even congratulate her. Did he answer her posts?

*sigh* I don't know why we are discussing these celebrities in so much detail. Whether SMG likes Angel/Bangel/DB is not an insult or disrespectful to other ship fans or to JM or to Spike. I don't see why DB not publicly congratulating SMG is a big deal (and he could have done so privately), and it's none of our business frankly, as well the relationship between JM and SMG.

 

[bespangeled]

I'm being on the topic where the people who have attacked SMG's opinion for favoring Angel over Spike and Bangel over Spuffy have always been Spike/Spuffy fans.

That really isn't a topic on this thread- it's about ships, not about shippers - about the characters and not the fans. Even the short segue there was speculation about how the actors feel about each other. There are fans who don't like SMG, and maybe attack her unfairly, but that's kinda what you're doing right now to Spike and Spuffy fans. Most of the people I know who don't like Buffy are Willow fans, but that certainly doesn't mean that Willow fans don't like Buffy.

 

[NeonNightLight]

That really isn't a topic on this thread- it's about ships, not about shippers - about the characters and not the fans. Even the short segue there was speculation about how the actors feel about each other. There are fans who don't like SMG, and maybe attack her unfairly, but that's kinda what you're doing right now to Spike and Spuffy fans. Most of the people I know who don't like Buffy are Willow fans, but that certainly doesn't mean that Willow fans don't like Buffy.

Agreed, me and Snyder went off topic, which is why I didn't reply to them again. I don't see how I am attacking Spike and Spuffy fans. I simply stated what it is true, Spuffy/Spike fans were the ones to get upset with SMG when she would state her preference for Bangel/Angel. But I am in no way saying all of them do, just that within that group there were those few people who would send hate towards her. Of course, I imagine other fans hate on SMG for other reasons, but I was addressing specifically to the circumstances which Snyder brought up (SMG announcing her preference for Angel over Spike, saying Angel was a better kisser) and them saying such comments were disrespectful towards fans.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't see how I am attacking Spike and Spuffy fans. I simply stated what it is true, Spuffy/Spike fans were the ones to get upset with SMG when she would state her preference for Bangel/Angel.

Respectfully, there are plenty of Spike fans who don't ship Spuffy and don't really care about Bangel. Spike is the little black dress of fandom - he gets shipped with damn near everyone. I'm a Spangel fan, so I like Angel as much as I like Spike. I have no problem with Bangel - at least no more problem than I have with any other ship. The Spander fans also don't really have any problem with Bangel or Angel - those are two very large Spike related ships. There are people who ship Spike with Willow, Faith, Tara, Giles, Wesley, Gunn, and Fred - and there are people who like the character but don't care about ships.

I do object to your comment that people who have attacked SMG's opinion for favoring Angel over Spike and Bangel over Spuffy have always been Spike/Spuffy fans. That's condemning two separate groups without really looking at the whole situation. Plenty of people who are neither Spike nor Spuffy fans didn't really like what she said - they felt it was an intrusion from an actress who tried very hard to get away from the entire Buffy universe until her career slowed down. SMG's sudden embrace of BTVS comes a bit awkwardly from an actress who refused to even answer questions about her role as Buffy for years.

Back to the topic - I like both Spuffy and Bangel because it was Buffy who finally reached Angel and taught him that helping others would fill that hole he had inside. It was also Buffy who reached Spike, who was responsible for sending a demon off to get his soul.

 

[NeonNightLight]

Respectfully, there are plenty of Spike fans who don't ship Spuffy and don't really care about Bangel. Spike is the little black dress of fandom - he gets shipped with damn near everyone. I'm a Spangel fan, so I like Angel as much as I like Spike. I have no problem with Bangel - at least no more problem than I have with any other ship. The Spander fans also don't really have any problem with Bangel or Angel - those are two very large Spike related ships. There are people who ship Spike with Willow, Faith, Tara, Giles, Wesley, Gunn, and Fred - and there are people who like the character but don't care about ships.

That is very true, I'm sorry, I got so used to saying Spike and Spuffy fans when I only meant Spuffy fans.

I do object to your comment that people who have attacked SMG's opinion for favoring Angel over Spike and Bangel over Spuffy have always been Spike/Spuffy fans. That's condemning two separate groups without really looking at the whole situation. Plenty of people who are neither Spike nor Spuffy fans didn't really like what she said - they felt it was an intrusion from an actress who tried very hard to get away from the entire Buffy universe until her career slowed down. SMG's sudden embrace of BTVS comes a bit awkwardly from an actress who refused to even answer questions about her role as Buffy for years.

I don't doubt there are people who thought that but they seem to be in the very small minority, when compared to the amount of certain Spuffy fans who chose to attack SMG for her bangel/spuffy related comments (again, not saying the majority of Spuffy fans attacked her, but that relative to non-Spuffy fans they were the majority).

LOL anyway, this is all really nitpicking so yes let's back to main topic.

 

[Snyder]

@NeonNightLight
You managed in a single thread to break almost half of the rules of this board, which is why I reported you but I see that no moderator has yet intervened (probably because luckily for them and contrary to some other people the staff here has a life outside of this board ) so I'll have to defend myself as it's in my right to do.

I'm being on the topic where the people who have attacked SMG's opinion for favoring Angel over Spike and Bangel over Spuffy have always been Spike/Spuffy fans.

You crying booh hoo Spuffy fans attack SMG's opinion while attacking ME for mine is beyond hypocritical and childish and tells a lot more about you than about us 'spuffy fans'.

Rule 1. "No personal attacks! Please remember that it's about the argument, not the person. "

*sigh* I don't know why we are discussing these celebrities in so much detail. Whether SMG likes Angel/Bangel/DB is not an insult or disrespectful to other ship fans or to JM or to Spike. I don't see why DB not publicly congratulating SMG is a big deal (and he could have done so privately), and it's none of our business frankly, as well the relationship between JM and SMG.

What's not YOUR business is the fact that other members want to talk about the cast. Actors are public figures and talking of them is totally licit both on this board, where there is even a dedicated forum, and outside of it. While you have no right to criticize and bash those who do.

Rule 2. "No bullying! Everyone on this board should feel they can post their opinions without being being bashed or bullied."

And your question 'why' is ludicruos seeing that you were the one who called me out on one single line and forced me over and over to elaborate.

here and here and here

Agreed, me and Snyder went off topic, which is why I didn't reply to them again. I don't see how I am attacking Spike and Spuffy fans. I simply stated what it is true, Spuffy/Spike fans were the ones to get upset with SMG when she would state her preference for Bangel/Angel. But I am in no way saying all of them do, just that within that group there were those few people who would send hate towards her. Of course, I imagine other fans hate on SMG for other reasons, but I was addressing specifically to the circumstances which Snyder brought up (SMG announcing her preference for Angel over Spike, saying Angel was a better kisser) and them saying such comments were disrespectful towards fans.

That is very true, I'm sorry, I got so used to saying Spike and Spuffy fans when I only meant Spuffy fans.
I don't doubt there are people who thought that but they seem to be in the very small minority, when compared to the amount of certain Spuffy fans who chose to attack SMG for her bangel/spuffy related comments (again, not saying the majority of Spuffy fans attacked her, but that relative to non-Spuffy fans they were the majority).

No, talk for yourself, I didn't go off topic. I just said a few words answering to other members who mentioned the actors' chemistry or lack of it - which weirdly didn't bother you at all - and you singled me out and started bashing me, going on even after I said I was done with it. Then you went to bash the whole group of Spuffy fans, even after you were called out for it, dragging in this thread something that has never happened - at least not here and not now - with the the arrogant presumption that you were 'simply stating what is true'.
And let me tell you that debating about me and what I said while not quoting or tagging me it's cowardly and mean.

Rule 3. No gossiping! Gossiping is discussing someone with the sole intention of creating negative feelings about that person.

Plenty of people who are neither Spike nor Spuffy fans didn't really like what she said - they felt it was an intrusion from an actress who tried very hard to get away from the entire Buffy universe until her career slowed down. SMG's sudden embrace of BTVS comes a bit awkwardly from an actress who refused to even answer questions about her role as Buffy for years.

This. With a correction. I may be a fan of Spike and/or Spuffy but it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily biased and that I can't have this same opinion for this same reason and to think @NeonNightLight that my or other fans' opinion are not or less worthy just because of our status of 'Spike/Spuffy fan' is discriminatory and that's what makes your words an attack - and a dumb one imo - toward all of us. And not that I hold any hope that you can understand this kind of reasoning but I would have had the same opinion even if SMG had said the opposite. Not everyone is biased, you know, so you'd better not judge others with your yardstick.

 

[thetopher]

SMG preferring the character of Angel over Spike doesn't say anything about how she feels about the actors who play them. How exactly is she targeting JM, Spike is just a fictional character he played? Okay, you're saying she's entitled to have her opinions, but then you criticize her because they 'antagonize' some fans... So anything that may upset some Buffy fans shouldn't be said at all?

Your right she isn't and never was targeting anyone. SMG has always been considered an utter professional by everyone who worked with her, mostly Joss but also a lot of her co-stars.
She has her preferences which she kept quiet about for many, many years before breaking her silence when she was asked a specifc question by a fan.
She answered honestly- which was great of her imo, none of this 'well, I can't really choose' non-answers that tend to crop up during fan-meets. She said straight up twice who she prefered.

Now, this isn't really anything remarkable. Willow is gay and yet Alyson has said in hte past that she liked/prefered very much working with Seth. Did this devalue people who hold Tillow or Kennedy in such high regard? Nope, nor should it.
But I was amazed at some of the sour reactions for disgruntled fans, ranging from the 'well, she chose the "wrong" one' to 'she's so dumb what is she thinking?' hysteria. And I have to say there was not a Briley fan to be seen anywhere around those comments.

Anyway, I wouldn't have cared unless she'd blurted out something really unexpected like Riley or Parker, but there you have it.

 

[Buffy Summers]

@NeonNightLight
You managed in a single thread to break almost half of the rules of this board, which is why I reported you but I see that no moderator has yet intervened (probably because luckily for them and contrary to some other people the staff here has a life outside of this board ) so I'll have to defend myself as it's in my right to do.

First off, no reported post came through. Did you use the report post button or did you pm someone?

Second, please refrain from telling other members that they have broken rules. Please leave that to staff.

Third, no matter what someone else has said, making the kind of comments you did in that postwas completely uncalled for. If anyone is being a bully and personally attacking here, it is you.

Lastly it is not bashing to say that some fans disliked Sarah giving her opinion. Let's try and have some perspective.

Having said that, in future, let's please be careful in making generalizations about groups of fans.

Let's now get off the subject of fans and the actors, and back to the topic.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Well, Angel is my favorite character and I already wrote about his side of the relationship in the Bangel vs Cangel thread (my very first post 🙂)

On Buffy’s side, I think Bangel provided much needed character development for Buffy. To me, she is extremely brave, emotionally strong and inspirational during the Angelus arc starting with the way she valiantly coped with losing her boyfriend to how with “no weapons, no friends” she still believed in herself and in her responsibility as a slayer and killed the man she loved. In season 3, I liked how Bangel gave us two great Buffy/Faith fights (in Revelations and in Graduation Day), how in Amends we see her vulnerable side again - the girl, not the slayer - and how the dilemma surrounding Angel/Angelus gave us a lot of beautiful bittersweet moments between Xander/Buffy, Giles/Buffy and even Willow/Buffy. If it weren’t for Bangel the Angelus arc wouldn’t have been a masterpiece. It was the fact that we were invested in B/A that made the stakes so high in season 2 and it’s cause of B/A that Innocence, IOHEFY and Becoming have such touching moments. In season 3, B/A is one of the reasons Lover’s Walk, Amends, Enemies, The Prom and Graduation Day are so good.

After that we also have IWRY, Forever and to a mush lesser extent Chosen. B/A was the best written love story for me, the one where both people were equally invested and felt the same way about one another and the one that made the show much better. The reason I love them so much and still want to see them together has a lot to do with their chemistry and the powerful bond between but basically with shipping a lot comes down to personal preferences. I can’t really explain why I absolutely can’t see them with anyone else.

Honestly I think the unlikely couple that starts off with hate-sex is usually interesting on TV in a way that the mysterious guy and the teenage girl are always too cheesy and unrealistic. So in theory Bangel should have sucked and Spuffy should have been amazing like I believe Wesley/Lilah were. However that didn’t really happen. There is a definitive cheesiness and melodrama factor to Bangel that everybody seems to be aware of but it doesn’t take away from the beauty of the ship as a whole.

In season 5 I found Spike really pathetic and disturbing in the beginning but enjoyed his character and the Spuffy interactions during the second half of the season.

The problem for me with Spuffy is that in season 6 it got really boring and soap opera like. A lot of the Buffy/Spike interaction boils down to: hate sex, verbal sparring (You like the darkness blah blah blah), physical sparring and then the cycle would repeat itself at the end of the episode. Also I don’t like what the ship did to Buffy, not because it made her darker, but because it was useless in the end. A dysfunctional relationship like the one Buffy and Spike had is very damaging to a person especially when it culminated in a really really badly handled attempt at rape. We don’t see how Buffy copes with everything after season 6 which to me is the thing that would have made their relationship worth the screen time it had. However the writers decided to start all over again in season 7 and then gave Spike undeserved character development and ruined Buffy even further. Spuffy would have been much better if it had been told more from Buffy’s point of view. Considering Buffy’s depressive state, an unhealthy relationship would have made the character more complex and fascinating, showing us a different, more unlikable side to a person that everyone has. There are a lot of examples of characters like that in shows and movies that I genuinely enjoy but season 6 provided us with a shallow exploitation of mental illness and put a lot of focus into showing us the “edginess” of Buffy’s sex life. Also, Buffy having sex with her jeans on is still one of the most bewildering moments to me on the show.

And all of that sums up why I’m a Bangel fan all the way. I had to leave a lot of stuff out though…

 

[cryptwarmer]

I think both relationships sucked.

Ultimately, I think if everyone wasn't showing the absolute worst sides of themselves, Buffy and Spike are a better match. But the way they played out 90% of the time was messed up. When they were "on" and being honest and "there" for each other, they were great.

There were more times when Angel and Buffy were "there" for each other, but I don't think the dynamic was that good. They never quite "fit". It was always a weird semi idealized, semi tragic thing and it was like the relationship would always be based on those aspects that are somehow supposed to equate to romance and true love, rather than on two people actually connecting in a real intimate way.

If everyone ever got some of their crap sorted out, I think Spuffy has a lot more potential than Bangel. Bangel was a bit like Briley. Riley admired Buffy's strength etc etc, but he also had problems with it when it came to his ego etc. I think Angel had that going on too. They couldn't quite fight side by side. There was an out of step disconnect. She and Spike could face things together head on, they knew and trusted each other's strength's.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Ultimately, I think if everyone wasn't showing the absolute worst sides of themselves, Buffy and Spike are a better match. But the way they played out 90% of the time was messed up. When they were "on" and being honest and "there" for each other, they were great.

IMO you can't match if you aren't interested in the complete person. Spike was never interested in the human part of Buffy. Same as Buffy was never interested in the human part of Spike. Spike is only after the slayer part and did his damnest to stamp out Buffy's humanity. Buffy only wants the monster (in both S6 and 7) while wholly disregarding the human (in S7). With Angel Buffy saw both the monster and the man and the compacities both have. Just like Angel tried to get to know and encourage Buffy's human side alongside the slayer part. Soulled vampire and Slayer are human hybrids in that they are both human and demon. Being only interested in half of the package makes you totally unsuitable IMO.

There were more times when Angel and Buffy were "there" for each other, but I don't think the dynamic was that good. They never quite "fit". It was always a weird semi idealized, semi tragic thing and it was like the relationship would always be based on those aspects that are somehow supposed to equate to romance and true love, rather than on two people actually connecting in a real intimate way.

B/A worked better because Angel functioned within the metaphors they set out for him. And he had clear functions on the show. Once those were at least halfway done and told, he left the show. Spike was hanging around uselessly for forever until they decided to turn him into an Anne Rice vampire who falls for someone because of a wet dream. And then those feelings (and character) take over the show as the most important thing. Where did Spike and Buffy connect, for real? The darkness that's in pretty much everyone, human or demon? Whoopdeedoo. Big deal. Them using each other to their own ends in both S6 and 7 was screwed up on an epic level and shows a lack of respect and love. Not being interested in the other person's well being is pretty much the opposite of love.

If everyone ever got some of their crap sorted out, I think Spuffy has a lot more potential than Bangel. Bangel was a bit like Briley. Riley admired Buffy's strength etc etc, but he also had problems with it when it came to his ego etc. I think Angel had that going on too. They couldn't quite fight side by side. There was an out of step disconnect. She and Spike could face things together head on, they knew and trusted each other's strength's.

Sadly neither vampire relationship has any sort of potential(should Buffy make it to old age), much as Joss and the fans like to kid themselves. Buffy is not getting any younger and if she should ever decide she wants more than a dead lover, she seriously needs to grow up and fast. Getting older is not something vamps can relate to, and as Buffy ages that will only become more difficult. I don't give a damn who can kick the most ass with her, I care about her as a person and that person's well being (emotional and mental). And so far being with a vamp has been nothing but mostly badness for Buffy. Sad that the writers don't allow her to learn and grow from that.

 

[Sternbeeere]

IMO you can't match if you aren't interested in the complete person. Spike was never interested in the human part of Buffy. Same as Buffy was never interested in the human part of Spike. Spike is only after the slayer part and did his damnest to stamp out Buffy's humanity. Buffy only wants the monster (in both S6 and 7) while wholly disregarding the human (in S7). With Angel Buffy saw both the monster and the man and the compacities both have. Just like Angel tried to get to know and encourage Buffy's human side alongside the slayer part. Soulled vampire and Slayer are human hybrids in that they are both human and demon. Being only interested in half of the package makes you totally unsuitable IMO.

I disagree. Buffy could never love Angelus, never saw the real monster not even the negative sites of Angel. As for Angel, yes he saw both sites, but he wanted her to be more on the human site.
As for Spike, at first he only saw the slayer and the kink (season 6) but he clearly says in season 10 he wants to be with Buffy not with the slayer, and he is ready to be with Buffy and her child in the abortion arc, as silly as it is.

Getting older is not something vamps can relate to, and as Buffy ages that will only become more difficult.

I think that is not that a big deal, except for the body, since vampires do change personalitywise and they do age, only slower than humans, we can see that in Kakistos and the Master. The main problem is Buffys indecisiveness and her exaggerated wish to be normal, with wish Spike gets infected in season 10: Buffy does not know whom or what she wants since season 8, it is Angel, than she again tries normal, than Spike again. In 8 she is all slayer than she wants to have no magic, than all slayer again. Likewise she goes for Riley and Ben, only because she sees them as normal, she does not see the personality at all. It is only in season 10, talking to Spike she sees every relationship as what it actually is, something between two individual personalities, and something that never will be perfect. I hope that she can go from here, but I doubt that, seeing her running in circles all the time.

Personally, I would say for slayer a normal guy comes with problems on his own, we see that with Riley and thus I would say that it does not matter what species Buffy chooses, it is the personality that matters.

 

[cryptwarmer]

IMO you can't match if you aren't interested in the complete person. Spike was never interested in the human part of Buffy. Same as Buffy was never interested in the human part of Spike. Spike is only after the slayer part and did his damnest to stamp out Buffy's humanity. Buffy only wants the monster (in both S6 and 7) while wholly disregarding the human (in S7). With Angel Buffy saw both the monster and the man and the compacities both have. Just like Angel tried to get to know and encourage Buffy's human side alongside the slayer part. Soulled vampire and Slayer are human hybrids in that they are both human and demon. Being only interested in half of the package makes you totally unsuitable IMO.


B/A worked better because Angel functioned within the metaphors they set out for him. And he had clear functions on the show. Once those were at least halfway done and told, he left the show. Spike was hanging around uselessly for forever until they decided to turn him into an Anne Rice vampire who falls for someone because of a wet dream. And then those feelings (and character) take over the show as the most important thing. Where did Spike and Buffy connect, for real? The darkness that's in pretty much everyone, human or demon? Whoopdeedoo. Big deal. Them using each other to their own ends in both S6 and 7 was screwed up on an epic level and shows a lack of respect and love. Not being interested in the other person's well being is pretty much the opposite of love.


Sadly neither vampire relationship has any sort of potential(should Buffy make it to old age), much as Joss and the fans like to kid themselves. Buffy is not getting any younger and if she should ever decide she wants more than a dead lover, she seriously needs to grow up and fast. Getting older is not something vamps can relate to, and as Buffy ages that will only become more difficult. I don't give a damn who can kick the most ass with her, I care about her as a person and that person's well being (emotional and mental). And so far being with a vamp has been nothing but mostly badness for Buffy. Sad that the writers don't allow her to learn and grow from that.

I agree that both relationships are unlikely to ever amount to much unless...everyone gets their crap sorted out AND leaves the Jossverse, neither of which is going to happen. So, if I have to choose between two basically hopeless relationships. I still choose Spuffy.

Spike very much cared about the human side of Buffy, he wanted to kill the Slayer and ended up sitting with her when she was crying over the very human situation of her mother. He didn't protect Dawn because he was hyped up on the Slayer, he did it because he couldn't bear to see human Buffy torn up over the loss of her sister.

He wanted a relationship with her, and when it was clear all he was going to get was violent sex, he went with it but it wasn't what he wanted for them or from her originally. But vampire over ruled man.

In S7 he clearly loved her as both Slayer and woman. I dont' read the comics so I can't talk about anything after that.

So, I just don't see where you are drawing your conclusion that he only wanted kinky Slayer because there is a lot of evidence to the opposite.

Buffy could never love or be involved emotionally with Angelus, he was a complete monster.

She chose to engage Spikes bad side...not a very good choice, but she did go there.

If the choice is Spuffy or Bangel, I'm siding with Spuffy. If it's Spuffy, Bangel or a positive human relationship. I'll side with the human, but it doesn't appear that Buffy is interested in mere mortals. Spike was right about her, she loves the pain. Can't say he didn't give the woman what she wanted.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I disagree. Buffy could never love Angelus, never saw the real monster not even the negative sites of Angel. As for Angel, yes he saw both sites, but he wanted her to be more on the human site.

Buffy didn't have to love Angelus. It would be a mess if she did! Angel sees himself and Angelus as two distinct people. If Buffy were to love Angelus, it would be a betrayal to Angel. Loving all of Angel means accepting Angelus, which she does. In Amends, Angel says: "You can never understand what I've done." and Buffy explains moments later "I know everything you've done because you did it to me. I wish I wished you dead. But I don't. I can't." Hating Angel would be simple. Nevertheless, she understands the difference between Angel and Angelus and can only love Angel and forgive him for his past. Case in point, she knows it's Angel the second he looks at her after getting his soul back and she's the only person who doesn't, at any point, fear that Angel has turned evil.

And Angel knows Buffy. He admires her, learns from her, even disagrees with her, criticizes her. He doesn't have an illusory idea of Buffy. He's aware of her shortcomings ("Just 'cause I'm not acting like a brat doesn't mean I don't feel anything--", "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. ", etc). They both bring out the human side of each other - the minute they lose their humanity, they become demons. So, yes, Angel does want Buffy's human side more which is what Buffy wants and needs (Spike wanted the slayer more and look at how miserable he made Buffy. Darla wanted the demon more than Angel and look at how she drove him insane). However, Angel doesn't just want human Buffy, she's a slayer and he gets that - he has a human and demon side also. He admires her slayer prowess. She was his champion before he became one. Yet, they never forgot what they were and they lived accordingly - she brought him blood, they met at night during patrols, etc.

There were more times when Angel and Buffy were "there" for each other, but I don't think the dynamic was that good. They never quite "fit". It was always a weird semi idealized, semi tragic thing and it was like the relationship would always be based on those aspects that are somehow supposed to equate to romance and true love, rather than on two people actually connecting in a real intimate way.

They connected in the most intimate way possible! They related, supported, exposed themselves to each other; Buffy felt the safest around Angel; she got through to Angel when he was at his worst (a difficult thing to do if you remember Ats S2); years after breaking up, Angel was still a soothing presence (Forever), etc. They were a nice team too (first half of season 2 and second half of season 3) and IWRY proves how deliriously happy they could make each other. They do "fit".

Furthermore, you don't give someone perfect happiness without a true connection and Buffy was the first person Angel remembered after coming back from Hell. Remember the way he fell down to his knees and clutched her to him, crying in relief? And how afterwards she nursed him back to health? Buffy gave him comfort and peace and that's never an easy thing to do or find in life. And it's pretty real and it's pretty intimate in my opinion.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I disagree. Buffy could never love Angelus, never saw the real monster not even the negative sites of Angel. As for Angel, yes he saw both sites, but he wanted her to be more on the human site.

She better not love Angelus, much less boink him. That's betraying her calling, not to mention spitting on the grave of every victim of this soulles monster. Much like she did when she boinked Spike instead of staking him. And I count Angel encouraging her human side in the plus column. Remember Faith? Best example of what happens when a slayer's human side is completely neglected. Faith didn't go dark side because of being a slayer/demon. She went dark side because of her very human life/experiences/flaws. Pre-Dawn and especially pre-Spikeboinkage!Buffy used to view her humanity as an asset herself (remember her speech to Kendra?). Sadly after suicide and resurrection complete with extended walk on the darkside with a being with little humanity, human Buffy was pretty much gone.

As for Spike, at first he only saw the slayer and the kink (season 6) but he clearly says in season 10 he wants to be with Buffy not with the slayer, and he is ready to be with Buffy and her child in the abortion arc, as silly as it is.

Don't know much about post-S8. Don't really care. It's still a mystery though how Buffy goes from calling Angel the love of her life and the person she would live life with in S8 while simultaniously calling Spike 'Stalky the Clown' and 'my dark place' (yikes on the badness scale with both of those) to suddenly loving Spike and wanting a life with him. Makes no sense to me at all. Buffy is either the most ficle person alive or really that damaged. Neither option is of the good IMO.

Personally, I would say for slayer a normal guy comes with problems on his own, we see that with Riley and thus I would say that it does not matter what species Buffy chooses, it is the personality that matters.

A normal guy would be perfectly fine and much healthier for her. Someone to actually grow old with but who understands her and slayer life on top of that? Jackpot! While sure vampires change over time, theirs is a process of hundreds of years. Humans don't have that long.

Spike very much cared about the human side of Buffy, he wanted to kill the Slayer and ended up sitting with her when she was crying over the very human situation of her mother. He didn't protect Dawn because he was hyped up on the Slayer, he did it because he couldn't bear to see human Buffy torn up over the loss of her sister.

He basically ended up by chance with Buffy when she cried over her mother. And the oh so set up scene where the chip doesn't work and Spike's 'soul' and 'love' overcome is evilness so he sits with her. *barf* We saw how much he really cared about Dawn when he dumped any relationship he had with her as soon as he got between Buffy's legs. All of Spike's actions in S5 and S6 are suspect because his one goal is Buffy's vag...heart.

He wanted a relationship with her, and when it was clear all he was going to get was violent sex, he went with it but it wasn't what he wanted for them or from her originally. But vampire over ruled man.

What kind of relationship? The kind he had with Dru? Because that's frankly the only relationship he knows and has any experience with (Harmony doesn't count here since he didn't love her). And that relationship doesn't work with a souled human being whose mentally healthy and stable. I don't see how an actual relationship would have gone any different than what we saw play out. He would have still needed to use all tricks from 'Abusive Relationships 101' in order to keep her in a relationship with him. Because a mentally and emotionally healthy Buffy wouldn't be interested (see S4 and most of S5 as proof for that).

In S7 he clearly loved her as both Slayer and woman. I dont' read the comics so I can't talk about anything after that

No he didn't. William's soul didn't even know Buffy except through the warped memories of the demon. If we are supposed to believe that it's the soul in the driver's seat and not the demon then Spike can't love her. He doesn't actually know her until he meets her for real in S7. And his behaviour in S7 doesn't scream love. It screams obsession and devotion just like prior to soul having. Being her eternal yes-man doesn't say love to me. Putting pressure on her to be both his guiding light and his executioner is unfair to her, especially after S6. Just like it's unfair of her to discard his humanity (which she didn't want from him anyway, so urgh, thanks for the added pressure there Spike) and only wanting the monster. Not to mention encouraging the split among the group by boosting Buffy's ego instead of standing up to her, therefor furthering her isolation, AGAIN. And have Buffy and Spike by that point actually ever really had a talk that relates to Buffy the woman instead of the slayer, her mother and her depression aside? Like does he know her favorite movie? Does he know, like Angel, that she used to ice skate to escape her fighting parents? What's her favorite color?

Buffy could never love or be involved emotionally with Angelus, he was a complete monster.

Well duh. That's why it's morally correct to stake them. And why it's morally wrong to boink them and not kill them. Or it used to be until Spike and his immunity idol came along and his out of nowhere Anne Rice routine became the new thing.

She chose to engage Spikes bad side...not a very good choice, but she did go there

People who suffer mental illness most likely won't make the best of choices. That's pretty much a given.

Spike was right about her, she loves the pain. Can't say he didn't give the woman what she wanted.

She didn't really. It's just that Joss first decided Buffy should take all the wrong things away from her relationship with Angel (her talk with Willow at the beginning of 'Something Blue' has me banging my head against a wall) because Buffy in pain is more interesting. And the supposed slayer darkness didn't become a thing until the Season where Spike also falls in love with Buffy. There is zero evidence for me that Buffy loves pain when she is allowed to be in her right mind, isntead of yanked around for story purposes.