Bangel or Spuffy? #2

[RomanticSoul]

Why do people watch TV shows in your opinion ? Do they watch it to see perfect characters have a perfect life ?

I'm pretty sure some people do since for some people real life is a mess. They would love to watch a 'happily ever after' show I'm sure. Because that's their wish fulfillment. But that's not the point of discussion. The point is about the writing of the show (and writing in general), not the audience.

I guess Joss just by using words like 'happy" and "stable" juste wanted to mean that nobody is interested by a relationship where everything it's normal, in place and perfect. And why ? Because it's not like that in real life for most of the people.

Actually normal is real life for most people. Since we are normal and not demons or slayers in a supernatural world. We are just regular old folk with normal, boring lives. Yeah sure, normal and healthy relationships seem to be going out of style more and more but whose fault is that? The media has to take part of the blame with the multitude of toxic relationships it puts on screens or in books. And parents who let their kids devour that nonsense without ever discussing with them why toxic relationships are nothing to be desired.

It's the complexity of the relationship that keep the fan invest in the story, tha's why Bangel and Spuffy have a lot of fans. If Bangel is the definition of "happy" and "stable" for Joss, and that it means for him "boring", then I disagree with him ! because there is a lot of issues they need to work on but again people like melodrame so.......

But that's why we got the S2 story. Bangel were together and happy and that's boring. Hence why he broke it up right when they got together. If Joss is 'word of God' to you, then you can't disagree with him. Of course Bangel shouldn't have been boring by the very nature of the people involved in the relationship. The only reason it was boring was because it was written as such. And whose fault is that?

Bangel (particularly S3) was melodramatic pap to me. It was just Twighlight Mk1 albeit with a 27 yr old fixated on a 15 yr old instead of 2 weird teenagers. I was so bored with it, it was just rinse repeat with every scene they did. Hell the writers were openly mocking Bangel in the Zeppo even they knew what they were writing

What's your point? Spike was also creeping on an underage Buffy and had the hots for her. Spuffy was just as melodramatic as Bangel. I mean, have you SEEN Season 6? And it was just as lather, rinse, repeat. So again, what's your point? And as you point out, at least back then with Bangel the writers were self aware enough to know what they writing, hence mocking it. With Spuffy they clearly hadn't a clue anymore and tried to present is as 'earnest' despite it drawing heavily from the Bangel playbook.

 

[thetopher]

What's your point? Spike was also creeping on an underage Buffy and had the hots for her. Spuffy was just as melodramatic as Bangel.

I've been thinking about the Bangel/Twilight comparison and whilst its mostly nonsense beyond the superficial (Buffy and Angel and not Bella/Edward in any way beyond high school girl and vampire) I do see more connections in their respective 'dark reflections'; Spuffy & 50 Shades

Creepy stalker behavior that is romanticized? Yep. 'Hot sex' that is actually becomes tedious and repetitive? Check. Abusive guy has Mom issues and that's why he has a thing for the girl? Bingo. The pairing sends harmful messages to young women about their respective relationship? Sure it does.
Is said creepy guy 'made better' through love of said good woman? Wow, this is getting spooky!

You take out the vampire/slayer thing and the relationships have a bunch in common, much more so than the original source material. Although 50 Shades has more glossy cars, so there's that.

 

[Antho]

I'm pretty sure some people do since for some people real life is a mess. They would love to watch a 'happily ever after' show I'm sure. Because that's their wish fulfillment. But that's not the point of discussion. The point is about the writing of the show (and writing in general), not the audience.

If that is the case those people should choose what they want to watch more seriously.... Don't watch drama, go for comedy ! It's not Joss's fault if people don't know what they are watching.

But that's why we got the S2 story. Bangel were together and happy and that's boring. Hence why he broke it up right when they got together. If Joss is 'word of God' to you, then you can't disagree with him. Of course Bangel shouldn't have been boring by the very nature of the people involved in the relationship. The only reason it was boring was because it was written as such. And whose fault is that?

You forgot that I'm Bangel fan. I don't find them boring. Never did and probably ever won't ! And please don't put word into my mouth, I never said that I was a member of the church of Joss ^^

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

To the surprise of NO ONE! 😋

BAngel. All day. Every day. Always.

And in no way does it compare to Twilight's Bella and Edward as that does a disservice to Buffy but I can see the need to fit it into that narrative in that it somehow weakens the BAngel relationship.

I can only talk about Buffy and souled Angel in a relationship because she never had that kind of relationship with soulless Angelus.

As Buffy had an entanglement with both soulless and souled Spike is where it can get a little in the muddy waters.

It's the one relationship that Buffy was involved with that I find I get no enjoyment from. It's just not for me and that's fine as I've never watch anything where I've loved every single one of the romantic relationships.

It doesn't make me think less of Buffy and with Spike, I couldn't think any less of him than I already do so any little amusement I get re-watching the series is a step up on my original thoughts about him.
But personally for me, it just makes what Giles said about a vampire in love with a slayer as poetic, less so now.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Btvs fan Actually no, Buffy was a legal adult in her 20's when Spike was chatting her up. Buffy was 15 when Angel spied her from his blacked out car.

Actually yes. You will find plenty of people saying Spike had the hots for Buffy since Season 2, including @Spanky for example. And thanks to the S5 retcon, Spike had the hots for Buffy since before she was 18. And he watched her plenty of times, including videotaping her without consent, before she was 18. So again, what's your point when that is 'canon' of the show?

If that is the case those people should choose what they want to watch more seriously.... Don't watch drama, go for comedy ! It's not Joss's fault if people don't know what they are watching.

You and me, we are talking about 2 different things. So lets just stop because there is no point to it.

You forgot that I'm Bangel fan. I don't find them boring. Never did and probably ever won't ! And please don't put word into my mouth, I never said that I was a member of the church of Joss ^^

Never said you find them boring. I was talking generally and again, 'boring' is Joss' word. I'm talking about Joss, why do you take it personally? Also didn't say you were a member of the church of Joss, whatever that is. But if you subscribe to everything that happens in the show 100%, accept what Joss says as canon (such as 'Spike went to get a soul') and see the comics as canon...then what Joss says is the deciding factor for you. So either you believe what Joss says, such as happy relationships are boring, or you don't. It's not a pick and chose scenario.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

But personally for me, it just makes what Giles said about a vampire in love with a slayer as poetic, less so now.

Agreed. Spuffy wasn't good for either Spike or Buffy in terms of relationship, character and plot. Spike should never have been split from Drusilla, and Buffy should've found a new relationship with a supernatural who wasn't a vampire.

And thanks to the S5 retcon

I really dislike that retcon, but again it's the writers trying to push the Spuffy ship by trying to take out Sprusilla (which they then attempted again in Crush). If a ship has to remove a (superior IMO) ship in order to fly rather than standing on its own two feet, then there's not really much to ship. It's the chemistry between SMG and JM that carries the Spuffy ship (though I personally never saw it as romantic but frenemy) rather than the writing. If Spike was played by a less charismatic actor then I don't think Spuffy would be as popular as it is.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But if you subscribe to everything that happens in the show 100%, accept what Joss says as canon (such as 'Spike went to get a soul') and see the comics as canon...then what Joss says is the deciding factor for you. So either you believe what Joss says, such as happy relationships are boring, or you don't. It's not a pick and chose scenario.

Yes, it is a pick and choose scenario. It is not a either-you-agree-with-everything-Joss-says-or-you-think-for-yourself-and-inevitably-reach-all-the-same-conclusions-as-RomanticSoul scenario.

 

[Antho]

So either you believe what Joss says, such as happy relationships are boring, or you don't. It's not a pick and chose scenario.

What about I accept what is canon as canon but it doesn’t prevent me to.... I don’t know how to say it..... have an open-mind, being critical. So Joss doesn’t like « stable » « healthy » relationship because for him it’s boring and so what ? This is his opinion and actually he isn’t wrong, in TV shows crazy disfunctional and melodramatic relationship always have a large success. If that’s not your thing, fine like I said before all the tastes are in the nature. But we are going in circles so let’s not repeat again the same things

 

[RomanticSoul]

Yes, it is a pick and choose scenario. It is not a either-you-agree-with-everything-Joss-says-or-you-think-for-yourself-and-inevitably-reach-all-the-same-conclusions-as-RomanticSoul scenario.

Canon is not a pick and chose scenario. Interpretation of canon is where differences come in. How is that so hard to get? And a lot of people, including shippers, love to bring up writers/actors/showrunners comments as canon proof, when it suits them. 'Joss said something nice about Spuffy, that's all the prove we need.' 'Sarah said something nice about Bangel, but she isn't Joss so it doesn't mean anything'. 'Joss said Spike went to get a soul so that's canon.'. On and on it goes. Canon should not be a pick and chose scenario because, interpretation of said canon can and should be as we all have a different view of said canon.

And I never once said people have to come to the same conclusion as me. WTF! I'm stating MY opinion, not everyone's. WTH???

This is his opinion and actually he isn’t wrong, in TV shows crazy disfunctional and melodramatic relationship always have a large success. If that’s not your thing, fine like I said before all the tastes are in the nature.

Funnily enough Joss is capable of actually writing a good relationship that stays interesting. Because the people in it are interesting and they still have conflict despite being happily married. Why yes, I'm talking about Wash/Zoe. Beats any ship ever on either BtVS or Angel. And then he uselessly killed one of them off of course. So Joss himself has proven that those relationships can and do work for an audience. And so have other writers for other shows.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Canon is not a pick and chose scenario.

Yes, it is. A canon is not a thing. It is a construct, and as constructs go, canon ranks among one of the most unstable and hotly debated.

How is that so hard to get?

Maybe I simply disagree. You seem to suggest that people need to choose between one of two ridiculously extreme positions on how to approach the show, but you don't seem the least bit consistent yourself.

And a lot of people, including shippers, love to bring up writers/actors/showrunners comments as canon proof, when it suits them.

Well, you seem to be one the people to bring up comments from writers/actors/showrunners the most, but rather than taking them as face value, you use the to demonstrate that the writers have no idea what they're doing. Now, this is perfectly fine, even if I think you like to make some pretty dramatic logical leaps in your reasoning.

I often see you argue for a text-only kind of approach, but you still seem to mix all kinds of different types of arguments that go beyond the text in question to prove your point.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Btvs fan Lol it was Sarah who pushed for Spuffy originally and it was Joss who said no more Vampires. Her issue seems more how it was done rather than anything. Regardless at the end of the day its personal taste.

What does this have to do with what I wrote?

Yes, it is. A canon is not a thing. It is a construct, and as constructs go, canon ranks among one of the most unstable and hotly debated.

Because the canon of the show itself became a jumbled mess for quite a few people. With changing rules that were never explained.

Maybe I simply disagree. You seem to suggest that people need to choose between one of two ridiculously extreme positions on how to approach the show, but you don't seem the least bit consistent yourself.

No, I'm saying that the show is the only canon people can 100% agree to know. Because people have seen it. Not everyone is so into it they hunt down commentaries, interviews etc.. So the only thing people can agree on to discuss in terms of canon is what they saw on screen. It's not an extreme view, at all.

Well, you seem to be one the people to bring up comments from writers/actors/showrunners the most, but rather than taking them as face value, you use the to demonstrate that the writers have no idea what they're doing. Now, this is perfectly fine, even if I think you like to make some pretty dramatic logical leaps in your reasoning.

I often see you argue for a text-only kind of approach, but you still seem to mix all kinds of different types of arguments that go beyond the text in question to prove your point.

Don't act like those things are never brought into a discussion by others. How many people bring up 'Joss said Spike went to get a soul so that's canon' when they defend the soul quest argument? And I bring up said comments when they warrant it. This was a ship discussion, Whedon was brought up so it was disucssed what Whedon said? So what? You can discuss that stuff separate from canon. You can even discuss how their issues or crappy writing or bad ideas etc. impacted a story. But that's separate from a discussion about the actual show canon.

Like Spike coming back in S4 and basically walking right up to Buffy's (or in this case Giles') door and asking for help. And he doesn't get staked on sight or at any point afterwards. They just wanted James and Spike back. But that doesn't matter to a canon discussion. And in the canon of the show, opinions vary. Me, I see the Scoobies as utter morons that sadly can't be excused for their behavior in S4 because there are no monks to blame it on. A Spike fan obviously will find a different way to explain it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So the only thing people can agree on to discuss in terms of canon is what they saw on screen. It's not an extreme view, at all.

The scripts too. Many people use things in the script that never showed up on the screen (or vice versa) also as being canonical.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Because the canon of the show itself became a jumbled mess for quite a few people. With changing rules that were never explained.

I wasn't talking about the Buffy-canon. I was talking about the concept of a canon. You talk of canon as though everyone agrees what a canon is. There exists no such agreement. What is a canon? Who decides which work belongs in a particular canon? There is no single answer.

Canon makes sense when talking about religious texts, because scripture is supposed to have a truth-quality that nobody would ascribe to fiction. It also makes sense for companion like Disney to introduce as canon for Star Wars, because it lets the fans know which works tie in with the new movies and it allows Disney to wipe the slate clean, so that they can sell tons of new tie comics and novel. However, I don't see any reason why we as fans should care.

IMO, canon is a silly word, and shouldn't be used by anyone who isn't a theologian or a marketer.

No, I'm saying that the show is the only canon people can 100% agree to know. Because people have seen it. Not everyone is so into it they hunt down commentaries, interviews etc.. So the only thing people can agree on to discuss in terms of canon is what they saw on screen. It's not an extreme view, at all.

It is an extreme view. The proper name for this view is fundamentalism. The truth is, it is impossible to watch a show or think about a show in isolation. This is especially true of nerds, which we all are. We can't help knowing tons of stuff that influence how we read the show. We can't unlearn everything we know that does not relate directly to Buffy as a literary work.

I'm not against close reading. I quite like it myself. However, it is just one of a multitude of approaches.

Don't act like those things are never brought into a discussion by others

I didn't. They do, and I'm fine with. I do, too.

How many people bring up 'Joss said Spike went to get a soul so that's canon' when they defend the soul quest argument? And I bring up said comments when they warrant it.

It makes perfect sense to meet a meta-textual argument with another meta-textual argument. It is arguably the most appropriate way to respond. However, by using those type of arguments, you legitimatise them. You obviously find it very interesting to discuss writers' opinions. You even like to make some pretty damning judgements on the writers as people.

We all know there were no in show reasons.

That' not true at all. There are tons of explanations for why the Scoobies do not kill Spike, and they change as circumstances change. Whether these justifications are believable or consistent is a different matter.

You can even discuss how their issues or crappy writing or bad ideas etc. impacted a story. But that's separate from a discussion about the actual show canon.

Here, you loose me completely. Sometimes it is useful to impose certain rules on a discussion. However, such rules will always be artificial, even if they can help elucidate certain parts of the show. For example, calling the writing "crappy" certainly influences how you view the internal world of the show. If the show is crappily written, you're saying that the internal world does not make sense. It's very hard to keep all of this separate and apart.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think Clem and Buffy should've been a thing during Season 6. However, whilst Clem genuinely likes Buffy and can't believe his luck that she is "interested" in him, she's just using him to make herself feel better but then feels terribly guilty afterwards. Add in Spike (Clem's best friend) accidentally finding out about the relationship (which Buffy wanted to keep secret) and starts blackmailing Buffy, then you've got Buffy feeling the pressure and financial problems.

 

[Name the Stars]

I like both depending on the season. I find Angel perfect for Buffy during her high school years, but unless they find some way around the curse it can never really be. I like Spike's dynamic with Buffy sometimes, but other times I find it really creepy. I like Spuffy in my headcanon far better than in canon. Same, I guess, with Bangel. I like Spuffy a lot in Season 7, but it's a lot more friend-ship like there. I guess I have a soft side for both, but both are VERY flawed.

That was very convoluted. Sorry!

 

[one eyed chicklet]

They are both annoying relationships. If it wasn't for Riley being stupid and blaming Buffy in season 5, that would be the superior relationship.

 

[SpikeRocks]

Definitely Spuffy more than Bangel (Bangel is awful, truly can't stand it)....my short explanation for now:

Angel's #1 will always be his redemption
Spike's #1 will always be Buffy
And Buffy (everyone) deserves to be someone's #1

 

[Taake]

Definitely Spuffy more than Bangel (Bangel is awful, truly can't stand it)....my short explanation for now:

Angel's #1 will always be his redemption
Spike's #1 will always be Buffy
And Buffy (everyone) deserves to be someone's #1

Isn’t that a bit teen-romancy/Harlequin? Kind of what people say of Bangel? Just wondering. To me it sounds creepy and obsessive that Buffy will Always be Spike’s #1
I don’t really associate that with a mature relationship, to be honest.

But then I don’t think romantic love should be someone’s main mission or purpose in life. That’s just unhealthy and unstable. But that’s part of what rubs me the wrong way about Spuffy, I guess.

 

[Fuffy]

Bangel, They will always love each other no matter what, and I'm happy that SMG is Team Bangel 😉

Spike is hot and all, but his place is not with Buffy, they are good as friends and nothing more.

 

[SpikeRocks]

Isn’t that a bit teen-romancy/Harlequin? Kind of what people say of Bangel? Just wondering. To me it sounds creepy and obsessive that Buffy will Always be Spike’s #1
I don’t really associate that with a mature relationship, to be honest.

I mean, no, the complete opposite......Buffy/Spike in Season 7 for example. [In regards to Season 7] "To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike." -- Joss Whedon