BtVS Season 7 Rewatch

[Grace]

Parallels to Angel's story: (Impossible to ignore the similarities so I figured I'd start taking note)
Spike is a mess, stalking and eating rats/similar to when Angel starts his journey eating rats.
"I dreamed of killing you" / "I wanted to kill you tonight." (Call back to S1E7).
Buffy picks up the stake to attack Spike, to kill him but something gives her pause/ Similar to her decision not to kill Angel when she shot the arrow in s1e7
Spike gaining his soul and then making the ballsy move to reach back out to the only people he knows in his world, to try and fit in where he used to fit in/ similar to Angel going back to Darla and the whirlwind to try and go back to what he did before his soul, to try and find his place among his family.

Definitely a lot of echoes of 1x07! Especially the Bronze scene in that episode, with Angel talking about his crimes while soulless and his guilt and eventually revealing the fact that he has a soul. And also the ending shot with the souled vamp getting burned by the cross.

And of course in Beneath You, it's the mention of Angel that makes Buffy understand what's going on with Spike.

But why doesn't Spike want Buffy to know he got a soul. Why does he go through great lengths to pretend he is his old self? What is the motivation behind that?

I find Spike's behavior completely repugnant in this episode (starting with him coming into Buffy's house uninvited, essentially violating her personal space), so I've been trying to answer this question myself. (Sorry if you were asking this rhetorically... 😉)

Here's Mark Field's take on Spike's behavior:

Spike’s behavior follows the recovering alcoholic trope I mentioned in the post on Lessons. He begins the episode still in the DTs, saying repeatedly that “it’s not the time” and that he’s “not ready”. We see him later, however, come into the world with bravado, claiming he’s “changed” (note the change in clothing; it is, as he later admits, a costume) and therefore can handle "it" all on his own. As we’ll see later, there’s a reason for this behavior, but I won’t go into it now in order to avoid spoilers.

It turns out that Spike can’t “handle it”, and he tries to hide his new condition. Stabbing Ronnie was so traumatic, both emotionally and because of the chip (yes, it did fire), that he can’t hold the pretense. He loses his emotional control and confesses to Buffy in the church scene that she’s inspired him to “quit”.

That doesn't explain why he didn't want Buffy to know how he changed, though. (I can't remember the spoilers MF is talking about, but I just assumed he means The First making him crazy. I might be forgetting something, though!)

It's clear that getting his soul did not go as Spike expected. So perhaps he's now ashamed of himself for thinking that getting his soul back would fix everything? He couldn't know before getting his soul that it wouldn't make everything magically better, and now he does. He feels like he has to take action because of what's happening with The First, so he tries to help, and he thinks he if he can just present himself as this new, changed Spike without any explanation, then no one will have to know how ignorant he was of what having a soul really meant. Maybe?

Spike's behavior in this episode also seems to relate to the scene between Willow and Giles. Willow isn't ready to go back. Spike is not ready to reveal what's going on with him to Buffy & co. (he says he's not ready in the rat scene). Giles tells Willow that she might not be welcomed back but she will be useful, which is essentially Spike's motivation. Maybe these lines of Willow's are revealing of Spike's mindset, too? "I don't want to go back home just so I can screw up again." and "And what if I give up all this control stuff and I go all veiny and homicidal again?" Maybe if Spike doesn't reveal he has a soul, the expectations for him will be lower and if he screws up it will just be what's expected of him? He does seem to try to "give up this control stuff" and be his old self in the Bronze and before stabbing Ronnie.

I don't know. I feel like I'm not getting it, either, so maybe someone else can weigh in?

One thing I particularly liked about this episode was Willow's line: "Does that mean I have to be a bigger, badder badass than the source of all badness?" That really ties in to both her and Buffy's journeys this season.

So, basically, I loved the Willow and Giles scene. I also loved Xander in this episode, and Dawn is definitely standing out as my favorite. But the Spike stuff was confusing to me, and I thought having a penis monster as the demon in the "attempted rape fallout" episode was pretty icky.

 

[Puppet]

I'm just gonna give my two cents before reading through the many posts, my head can't handle that while also remembering the episode I just finished watching, lol 🙂

Lessons

Though I haven't seen this season in at least five years, if not more, I obviously still remembered most of it - this ain't my first rodeo - but it was fun going back with fresh eyes, in a way; as an adult, as someone who is noticing more and more about how TV is made (direction, production, acting, FX and so on), as someone who no longer considers it the best show out there. I watched as both a die-hard fan, but also now with the ability to recognize flaws and such.

The first scene was great, I think we can mostly agree on that; it's very Buffy. It's got the snarky humor and all the elements that made/make this show so great. Also, is it just me, or did SMG look extra-crispy gorgeous in that scene? I don't know if it was the hair, the outfit, the fact that she hadn't gotten too skinny yet, or a combination of all three, but wow, I definitely noticed 😉

For a season opener, it was a good one, and I'm not usually a fan of premieres. This would probably rank somewhere in the middle of all 7 seasons, just off the top of my head. The acting was pretty solid, the characters felt like themselves, and introducing the main villain so soon was a rare but good choice. I enjoyed it more than I expected to, since I consider 7 my second least favorite season. We'll see...

Some notes before I finish up:

- Xander looked very hot in his suit and his hair was great 😀
- Alyson gave my favorite performance of the episode, she felt more like her character than anyone else and I believed her moroseness.
- I actually found the FX for the flower coming out of the ground to have aged surprisingly well.
- I loved that the villains showed up in the backwards order of when they were on the show, very in keeping with the 'back to the beginning' message of this season.
- I love when shows go meta so I definitely enjoyed that moment with The Master.
- Spike looked hot, but Xander still overruled him in this one 😉
- The final scene was my very favorite of the episode.

(who else wishes we'd seen more of Kit and Carlos?)

Okay, now it's time to go read what you guys thought (and find out just how far behind I've fallen, lol)

 

[Mylie]

I haven't read anyone else's post about Beneath You yet because I wanted to go into the episode with a fresh perspective. It's been years since I have last seen the episode

Beneath You

I will start by saying that I absolutely hated this episode, which pains me given how much I enjoyed Lessons. But I will try to be as positive as I can be.

We start with Buffy's dream. This dream sequence felt very weird for me. It's really not the kind of dream sequence we're used to on this show. Her dreams are usually prophetic and cryptic, this one seemed to be happening in the present and was very clear. She can already tell that there are more girls and that they are going to die. This is possibly Buffy being more in touch with her inner slayer, but I don’t like that dream = instant telling. I prefer the BtVS dreams to be metaphorical.

I'll go with what I loved straight away because there is very little of it :
-the car scene with Buffy, Dawn and Xander : I find this dynamic really cute and it just works for me. I loved Dawn making fun of them for dating demons.
-Dawn standing up to Spike and threatening him if he touches Buffy. I am Dawn, Dawn is me.
-the Willow/Giles scene and how worried Willow is about the scoobies not welcoming her with open arms. It feels very real and honest.
-The girl saying how someone would be crazy to believe all the stories about Sunnydale, this felt like a throwback to s1 and 2 when everyone was so oblivious to what was going on in Sunnydale.

Spike : I don't get his progression in this episode? The episode starts with him being crazy and incoherent in the basement and then later on we suddenly see him all clean and coherent. How? When? I don't get it AT ALL. To make things worse, it seems like he's playing a game through most of the episode (actively hiding that he has a soul) and then at the end it's like oh no he's back to crazy? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Buffy flinching at Spike’s touch was well done except for the clip. I really don’t think it was necessary to show that scene again. We all know what she's thinking about. It’s both difficult and satisfying to see Buffy mad and shut him out but the scene still leaves me angry because he gets to have the last word. And that infuriates me.

I have absolutely no words to express how much I hate the scene at the bronze. I don't care that Spike is "playing" his soulless self. Seeing him hit Anya unwarranted is unacceptable. Seeing him continuously hit Buffy, after everything that happened last season and taunting her about the balcony scene? I have no idea what the writers were thinking but that's it for me. I'm going to try to remain open-minded for the reminder of the season (we're only 2 episodes in after all), but this is the very worst possible way they could have made me warm up to this character.

As for the last scene, it is possibly the most melodramatic and manipulative scene on BtVS. And I am very mad that they decided to end an episode where Buffy should have been allowed to be mad at Spike with this scene. Because now, we're all supposed to feel sorry for him, even after he pulled all of this in this very episode.

So not a fan of this episode at all. So far my ranking is (and I plan on doing this through the whole season) :
1. Lessons
2. Beneath You

I'm excited for next episode, it's one of my favorite Willow episodes and hopefully I won't change my mind!

(and now up to reading everyone else's thoughts on Beneath You...)

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Edit: I didn't notice that more than one person had reviewed Beneath You. I only read Mylie's post. Too tired to rectify it. Perhaps I'll look like a fool ... perhaps not.

So, I really love this episode. I love the tone. So much of this season feels like the hangover from the bad trip that was S6.

Mylie mentions some great moments that I think we can all appreciate. Rather than repeat her, I will endeavour to play devil's advocate (almost literally) and defend Spike's role in the episode.

Spike in this episode is fragmented. The evil Spike who tried to rape Buffy and who naively believed regaining his soul would absolve him is still there, but now there is also a new tenant - the soul. Spike feels moral outrage at his own actions and he is slowly opening himself to new perspectives. For the moment, it is impossible for Spike to reconcile his demon and his soul. Therefore, he has no coherent exterior to present to the world. Several voices are erupting from him at once - hatred for himself, sympathy for himself, hatred for Buffy, love of Buffy, anger, shame, pain, etc.

Ideally, Spike should have spent several years in therapy, perhaps in a prison, but time is never our friend, so Spike decides to come out of the basement to help Buffy. In order to do this, he needs to escape into something familiar, namely his persona from the previous season. For a while, he manages to contain the pain caused by his soul, but when Anya threatens to expose him, he panics, because he does not want to be seen in his confused and pained state. I would not say that Spike is playing his soulless self here. Rather, he is shutting himself off from his soul.

A crisis occurs when Spike unintentionally harms the man-turned-worm-turned-man-again. Once again he is a blabbering, fragmented mess, and all his voices are speaking at once. I think the scene in the church is brilliant. Part of Spike is repentant sinner. Another part of him cares only for himself and still feels he deserves Buffy's unquestioning love. A third part just wants to die to stop the pain. Spike is not being manipulative here. He is just spilling out at all ends.

It is easy to feel sorry for Spike, because he gets so much screen time and because James is such a compelling actor, but I don't think the episode necessarily forces you to see him that way. In fact, the writers go to great lengths to continually remind us of the flaws in Spike's character.
 

But why doesn't Spike want Buffy to know he got a soul. Why does he go through great lengths to pretend he is his old self? What is the motivation behind that?

Because he lacks the strength to say, "I now fully appreciate what a monster I was." The soul is not a magic quick-fix. For Angel, it was a punishment, meant to inflict pain, not a device for self-improvement. Angel use of the soul to make himself a champion was a subversion of its original intent.
 

Spike's behavior in this episode also seems to relate to the scene between Willow and Giles. Willow isn't ready to go back. Spike is not ready to reveal what's going on with him to Buffy & co. (he says he's not ready in the rat scene). Giles tells Willow that she might not be welcomed back but she will be useful, which is essentially Spike's motivation. Maybe these lines of Willow's are revealing of Spike's mindset, too? "I don't want to go back home just so I can screw up again." and "And what if I give up all this control stuff and I go all veiny and homicidal again?" Maybe if Spike doesn't reveal he has a soul, the expectations for him will be lower and if he screws up it will just be what's expected of him? He does seem to try to "give up this control stuff" and be his old self in the Bronze and before stabbing Ronnie.

I like this comparison. Willow is more used to guilt, so she expresses her feelings more coherently, yet, she is also confused about the right course of action, and she desperately need someone to either absolve her or tell her what she is expected to do. Giles does not offer her the clear and simple answers she seeks.

However, I do not think Spike pretended to hide his soul to lower expectations. Talking about his soul would mean exposing the thing that is causing him pain, thus laying himself bare and vulnerable. He is trying to avoid the confused mess of the church scene.

 

[Mylie]

Spike in this episode is fragmented. The evil Spike who tried to rape Buffy and who naively believed regaining his soul would absolve him is still there, but now there is also a new tenant - the soul. Spike feels moral outrage at his own actions and he is slowly opening himself to new perspectives. For the moment, it is impossible for Spike to reconcile his demon and his soul. Therefore, he has no coherent exterior to present to the world. Several voices are erupting from him at once - hatred for himself, sympathy for himself, hatred for Buffy, love of Buffy, anger, shame, pain, etc.

Ideally, Spike should have spent several years in therapy, perhaps in a prison, but time is never our friend, so Spike decides to come out of the basement to help Buffy. In order to do this, he needs to escape into something familiar, namely his persona from the previous season. For a while, he manages to contain the pain caused by his soul, but when Anya threatens to expose him, he panics, because he does not want to be seen in his confused and pained state. I would not say that Spike is playing his soulless self here. Rather, he is shutting himself off from his soul.

I appreciate this input and after reading Mark Field's essay, it makes more sense to me. But I think the execution is still extremely flawed. I found the transition from messy crazy Spike to clean cut coherent Spike very jarring. I honestly paused the episode and asked myself if I didn't maybe miss something.

A crisis occurs when Spike unintentionally harms the man-turned-worm-turned-man-again. Once again he is a blabbering, fragmented mess, and all his voices are speaking at once. I think the scene in the church is brilliant. Part of Spike is repentant sinner. Another part of him cares only for himself and still feels he deserves Buffy's unquestioning love. A third part just wants to die to stop the pain. Spike is not being manipulative here. He is just spilling out at all ends.

I wasn't accusing Spike of being manipulative. I find the scene manipulative. Basically, I don't blame the character here, I blame the writers.

It is easy to feel sorry for Spike, because he gets so much screen time and because James is such a compelling actor, but I don't think the episode necessarily forces you to see him that way. In fact, the writers go to great lengths to continually remind us of the flaws in Spike's character.

I disagree. There's no reason to rewrite (and even include) that last scene in this particular episode, other than the writers wanting Buffy and the audience to sympathize with him. My problem with the scene is not its existence, it's the fact that it's in this particular episode, the one where Buffy should have been allowed to be mad at Spike and cope with what his return meant, without having to think about him.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Generals see the big picture. By season seven Buffy would sacrifice EVERYONE she loves and herself if it saved the world. It's something that her friends didn't get, but Giles should have because he cultivated that mentality. In my opinion, given the gravity of the situation, everyone was expendable. If they had understood that like she did, there would have been less friction and her mistake that cost lives would have been considered an unfortunate cost of the fight.

I fault her for very little of what she does in season seven. Tactical action to serve the greater purpose. The rest of them? Well, they're pathetic... and out of character to a degree. The writing consistently sucks.

NO, she's not callous. She cares so much about the world she is willing to sacrifice herself and those she loves in order to save it. Since her challenge is utterly real and deadly and she's not delusional, her choices make sense and her attitude makes sense. If you bake the cake, you may have to break all the eggs... if the cake comes out, you did not waste your eggs.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I wasn't accusing Spike of being manipulative. I find the scene manipulative. Basically, I don't blame the character here, I blame the writers.

Sorry. I wrote my post after reading yours, so some of what I wrote was in response to thing you brought up, but this was actually a response to things I have remembered seeing in the past.

The scene can definitely be manipulative. Spike is deliberately written to be a seductive characters, and it is easy to feel sympathy for him, even when others deserve it more, but I believe myself that the writers often seem to wanna remind us that Spike is an extremely problematic character.

I disagree. There's no reason to rewrite (and even include) that last scene in this particular episode, other than the writers wanting Buffy and the audience to sympathize with him. My problem with the scene is not it's existence, it's the fact that it's in this particular episode, the one where Buffy should have been allowed to be mad at Spike and cope with what his return meant, without having to think about him.

I don't address this criticism, simply because I have no retort. I think the writers do a lot of great things with Spike, but there are problems with this storyline that they are unable to rectify. They focus too much on Spike at the cost of Buffy, and it may have been misguided to make Buffy a victim of sexual assault to being with, because you would not expect Buffy to react to violence the way most people would.

Buffy was always messy and S7 is the messiest. I just want people to appreciate the good parts, because I love the show so much.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I thought of another interesting side by side to examine:

While Angel has his reveal with Buffy in s1e7; another parallel to the church scene is this one from Angel s1e18:

Spoiler

Cut to Darla entering the house she and Angelus are apparently living in.
Darla: "Angelus? - Are you here? - Angelus?"
She walks into the other room. Angel is huddled up against a wall.
Angel: "Not everyone screams."
Darla: "What?"
Angel: "When you kill them. Some - just stand there, - frozen... While others..."
Darla: "What are you doing? Are we playing a game?"
Angel: "The children - they usually scream."
Darla smiling: "Hmm, yes. They sound just like little pigs. Have you brought me some? - What you don't think I’ll share? I can't believe that you would think I'm that insensitive."
Angel turns away from the wall. He looks pretty ragged.
Angel: "We've drunk and killed for who long now? 140-odd years. We've drunk them all up and they're all dead."
Darla tries to take his face into her hands: "Where have you been?"
Angel pushes her away: "Don't."
Darla: "What is this? Have you met someone else?"
Angel takes a hold of her shoulders and leans against her.
Darla: "No. -Let go. (Pushes him away) Let go of me! What happened to you? Angelus, what happened?"
Angel: "That gypsy girl you brought me - her people found out. They did something to me."
Darla: "A spell?"
Angel: "Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed - and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one. (Darla walks up to him) Help me."
Darla lays a hand against the side of his face: "The spell - they gave you a soul. A filthy soul! No! (Scratches his cheek) You're disgusting!"
Angel: "Darla."
Darla picks up a wooden chair to ward him off: "No, get away from me."
Angel: "You brought her here."
Darla smashes the chair and picks up one of the legs and tries to stake Angel.
Angel avoids the swing: "I am like you."
Darla still holding the stake ready: "You're not like anything. Get away from me. Get out! (Angel stumbles out of the house) I'll kill you!"
Cut to Angel walking away from the house. He looks back once to see Darla in the door, stake raised.
Darla watches him go, slowly lowering her stake.

What I find interesting is in Doug Petrie's script Spike similarly recounts the horrible things he did:

SPIKE
Yeah. I've been ... well come on,
Let's face it, been a one-man
slaughterhouse, last hundred years.
Raping. Murdering. And for what?
(heat)
Kicks.

And in Joss' re-write Spike doesn't speak at all of his past crimes. All he talks about is what he did to Buffy sorta "to be the kind of man who would nev-" so I'm curious as to why Joss decided to re-write and leave out any reflection of his past crimes while soulless with the exception of what he does to Buffy. Obviously, these are things that you would think would be on Spike's mind. And certainly he talks about them later on in s7 but this was obviously a deliberate change. I think if I had to guess it is because they write Spike, again, to be forward thinking. Not focused on the past or his history but living in the present. Of course quite conveniently he gets to live in that present he isn't haunted by his past literally in the way that Angel is haunted by his past. The First tortures Angel by showing him his victims but The First doesn't think that a strategy that would work to torture Spike. Instead the First just shows him - Buffy.

 

[Grace]

And in Joss' re-write Spike doesn't speak at all of his past crimes.

True, he doesn't speak of them in a concrete way, but I think this line is supposed to indicate that he's thinking of his past crimes: "And—and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I— and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath—beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... to hell."

The First tortures Angel by showing him his victims but The First doesn't think that a strategy that would work to torture Spike. Instead the First just shows him - Buffy.

Is that also maybe a factor of The First's aims with Spike? (Forgive me if I'm misremembering Season 7.) In Season 3, The First's goal with Angel was annihilation, for Angel to cease to exist. Either through losing his soul again (and hopefully killing Buffy) or through him killing himself. But Spike can't lose his soul and The First doesn't want to get him to kill himself, right? The First wants to use souled Spike. So it becomes a literal power struggle between Angel Buffy on one side and Devil Buffy on the other. (Or, in the alcoholic metaphor, The First wants Spike to start drinking again, leading to those "blackout" incidents.)

My problem with the scene is not its existence, it's the fact that it's in this particular episode, the one where Buffy should have been allowed to be mad at Spike and cope with what his return meant, without having to think about him.

I agree that the placement is problematic, but I also have trouble with the scene itself -- the concept of Buffy getting shamed in a church, and all the loaded sexual dialogue Joss added.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

But Spike can't lose his soul and The First doesn't want to get him to kill himself, right? The First wants to use souled Spike. So it becomes a literal power struggle between Angel Buffy on one side and Devil Buffy on the other. (Or, in the alcoholic metaphor, The First wants Spike to start drinking again, leading to those "blackout" incidents.)

Well I agree the aim is slightly different. But both times TF wants them to kill other people TF doesn’t want Angel to die, it wants him to feed on/kill Buffy and lose his soul. Similarly TF wants Spike to - we’ll kill other random people? I can’t really remember why. Just cause general mayhem? Maybe this re-watch will help me remember. Either way it’s implied in the basement and in the church that TF is trying to drive Spike crazy. And in doing so it never takes on the physical manifestations of his past victims.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Unlike Angel, Spike is not a great moral thinker. Spike forms attachment to certain people. The fact that he has hurt Buffy - someone he loves - matters much more than all the faceless people he killed over the years. For example, Spike does not apologise to Harmony for the way he treated her, simply because Harmony does not matter as much.

I can be put off by both Spike and Angel's form of morality. Spike is often selfish and self centred, because all his motivation to do good is rooted in his own personal feelings. Angel can come across as cold and impersonal.

 

[Grace]

Well I agree the aim is slightly different. But both times TF wants them to kill other people TF doesn’t want Angel to die, it wants him to feed on/kill Buffy and lose his soul. Similarly TF wants Spike to - we’ll kill other random people? I can’t really remember why. Just cause general mayhem? Maybe this re-watch will help me remember. Either way it’s implied in the basement and in the church that TF is trying to drive Spike crazy. And in doing so it never takes on the physical manifestations of his past victims.

Yeah, it just seemed to me that The First didn't have long-term plans for Angel because it was OK with him killing himself. (That's actually a good argument for The First not being the one to bring Angel back, since why bother?) If he killed Buffy, great, if he killed himself, that's good too. It didn't seem like The First thought it could corrupt an ensouled Angel, so it wanted to get rid of him, through losing his soul again (ideal outcome) or driving him to suicide (OK consolation prize). But that's just my spin on it, of course.

Do you think they were going for something about how The First needs to control a souled being to carry out its plans? I thought it was interesting that the Turok-Han were basically mindless and Caleb was The First's agent, not a demon. (Maybe this is discussed and I'm just not remembering?)
 
Oh, wow, actually I never thought about this before, but it kind of seems obvious to me now that The First would be royally ticked about the concept of ensouled vampires. Since vampires are evil, they "belong" to The First. Sticking souls in them gives them a choice. And it would be especially galling that Spike got his on purpose.

 

[EarthLogic]

Beneath You:

Until rewatching this episode I hadn't realised how bad it was for a 7th season episode. My memory of S7 was that the main problems lay with character rather than plotting and structure (until the end of course when Joss throws in every deus ex machina he can possibly come up with), but this one was really poor structure-wise. It felt far too heavily weighted towards that final scene - the very end of the 4th Act, so the whole episode feels like it's just meant to get us to that revelation point in the church and of course, that scene is what most people tend to remember of the episode anyway. It's about 40 mins build up, 5 mins climax then cut to credits. There's no denouement or rounding-off of the episode and given that the Buffy/Scooby side of the plot started with the three of them (kind of - it's Buffy & Dawn, then Buffy, Xander, Dawn), I felt like there should have been a better integration of each character in the final act.

The Ronnie-worm plot didn't do much for me, at least as a MoTW. The tone seems off - as if the episode can't decide how seriously it wants to play it against the obviously more serious Spike/Buffy arc. I like what Mark Field has suggested about the worm being a metaphor for Spike so it's interesting on that level.

Stuff I liked:
- Dawn threatening to set Spike on fire. I love scary!Dawn.
-All of Willow/Giles.
-'Shall we round up the gang?' / 'Good thinking, except...this is the gang'. Awww 🙁
-The 'family' vibe of Xander driving Buffy and Dawn to school. *hugs them*
-The look between Spike and Xander when Nancy asks if there' anyone who haven't slept together
-The Church scene* - JM gets to exercise his Shakespearean acting chops and does so with flair. The whole set-up feels very theatrical with the way he uses the space like you would a stage.

(Other) stuff I didn't like/questions:
- Minor nitpick but how did no-one hear or sense Spike enter the house? Like, the front door is right there!
- I agree the 'previously on' was unnecessarily long. Really wanted a skip button for it. The only time I like lengthy recaps are in season/series finales. The ones for the Gift/Chosen worked perfectly and made me cry.
- Nancy. I just didn't like her. She feels like a cipher for the audience to identify with and use to take a step back and view Buffy's world from the outside. This is most apparent in the Bronze scene. Yes, it's meta as a lot of this season will be, only it doesn't really work since a) we've been with the Scoobies for a long time now and don't actually need all their wacky relationships and developments to be lampshaded (at least not yet) and b) unlike Andrew, annoying as he may be, she has no ties to the gang and so
- *The Church Scene: despite JM's acting talent, there's a part of me that's rather sceptical about the use of Christian imagery in the final scene and I was wondering if anyone else feels the same way? Now obviously with Caleb popping up later on Biblical references can be expected to run through the season, but the emphasis on Christian imagery, especially this overtly with the big cross-hugging specifically for Spike's arc never quite fit with his character for me. With Angel it's obvious that both soulless and souled sides of him are hugely informed by his Catholicism and his story is often shaped by religious imagery and language. With Spike, while we can presume William would have been a Christian, religion has never really come into play in Spike's journey (except when he had to restore Drusilla in that church). I'm not certain but I think the couple of times he did say something like 'oh God' is in the general way anyone would use it in a moment of exasperation/dissatisfaction. Perhaps I'm just being cycnical but I can't help but feel that it's just a heavy-handed way of 'officially' signaling his redemption arc, like there might as well be a neon sign above him saying 'Here Begineth the Redemption'. I dunno...is it just me?

My problem with the scene is not its existence, it's the fact that it's in this particular episode, the one where Buffy should have been allowed to be mad at Spike and cope with what his return meant, without having to think about him.

Like I said in my 'Lessons' post, I think 'Beneath You' is too soon. I believe we needed a chance to get into the overall plot of the season, and get more of Buffy's side of her experiences teh previous year before getting a Spike-centric episode.

@dcai0830, @Mylie, I didn't find the swings in Spike's mental state so confusing. I'm no expert but I think it's often the case that people suffering from trauma/mental problems (depending on what they are) will have moments of lucidity interpersed with breakdowns. I thought that was pretty plausible. The length of Spike's lucid period might seem a bit contrived since it lasts most of the episode but I guess that's down to him being the plot driver here.

Either way it’s implied in the basement and in the church that TF is trying to drive Spike crazy. And in doing so it never takes on the physical manifestations of his past victims.

Good point. That hadn't occurred to me before. I think it fits the personalities of both vampires, Angel being driven by his past and Spike always motivated by his obsessions/attachments to particular people, however I do remain a bit conflicted on this overall. On the one hand I don't want Spike's experience of dealing with his soul to be the same as Angel's; that would be dull, not to mention lazy writing ( and we don't need yet another parallel to Angel's arc). On the other, I'm not sure Spike's past crimes/ failure to confront his past crimes get given enough attention. It does seem to get bypassed rather quickly as if the writers are a little afraid to actually show (as opposed to tell) us the extent of his deeds for fear of making him unlikeable...? That's my lasting (vague) impression of it to date, anyway. Maybe this will change during this rewatch.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Perhaps I'm just being cycnical but I can't help but feel that it's just a heavy-handed way of 'officially' signaling his redemption arc, like there might as well be a neon sign above him saying 'Here Begineth the Redemption'. I dunno...is it just me?

I feel like we are lead to believe that Spike is smack in the middle of his redemption arc because we have gone straight to the forgiveness, the question of whether he can be forgiven. I think typically in a redemption story you have the fallen protagonist work to make reparations or to redeem themselves in some way and then you address the issue of can they, will they ever be forgiven. But the act of getting his soul appears to be that catalyst which is meant to ask the audience/Buffy - can Spike now be forgiven?

"She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved." That is what he says. That is what he seeks. That is what he wants.

Can Spike be forgiven? I think the answer the episode leaves us with is yes he can. He lays himself on the cross with, as you say, the christian imagery that evokes the christian idea of forgiveness if you seek it and then Buffy is obviously moved to tears by his revelation. So I think at the very least we are to believe at the end of it all - there is hope for Spike's forgiveness. The question I have is whether that forgiveness is (a) required or (b) earned.
 

@dcai0830, @Mylie, I didn't find the swings in Spike's mental state so confusing. I'm no expert but I think it's often the case that people suffering from trauma/mental problems (depending on what they are) will have moments of lucidity interpersed with breakdowns. I thought that was pretty plausible. The length of Spike's lucid period might seem a bit contrived since it lasts most of the episode but I guess that's down to him being the plot driver here.

It really depends on what type of "mental problems" they are trying to convey. Spike appears almost schizophrenic. If that is the real life comparison, then the answer is: No. People who are experiencing that type of mental illness do not have intermittent moments of long term lucidity. Even when people are suffering from PTSD or depressive with psychotic tendencies episodes you don't go from 1 to 100 and back to baseline in a short period of time like this. You may have moments* of clarify or lucidity but not extended periods of time.

But I understand that I shouldn't apply real life/mundane explanations to this supernatural/fantasy plot. I just personally found the characterization of his craziness confusing and jarring.

 

[Bop]

Lessons:

I'm so nostalgic, this was the first Buffy episode I ever saw 🙁

Things I liked:
- Willow/Giles scenes. Giles is taking full responsibility over Willow through his mentoring, and you can feel the history between them. Giles gets a lot of heat for his "rank, amateur" comment but I don't believe he's ever been deliberately vindictive towards Willow. Just hurt, disgusted and angry.
- Dawn.
- The ending scene, seeing all the big bads 🙂

Others:

-Buffy's reaction to the dead people. I wasn't expecting her to apologise or anything but the victims were there sharing their emotional stories and it doesn't remotely touch Buffy. Remotely. It didn't feel right.

Anyway, overall I enjoyed lessons 🙂

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

-Buffy's reaction to the dead people. I wasn't expecting her to apologise or anything but the victims were there sharing their emotional stories and it doesn't remotely touch Buffy. Remotely. It didn't feel right.

I guess the vampires she slays were once people she failed to save 🙁

 

[Mylie]

Same Time, Same Place

The first scene is a very nice moment and I loved Xander's yellow crayon reference and how the girls are making fun of him telling the story.

Dawn seems a bit harsh but I’m very impressed with how much she has matured. "Will anyone around here ever start asking for help when they need it?" It feels miles away from s6 Dawn who felt abandoned, stole stuff to compensate and wasn't able to voice what was going on with her.

The scene in the basement was interesting. Having Spike interact with Buffy/Xander and Willow at the same time was a good idea given his state of mind. I’m just not sure about why they made him say “the witch” that way. It took me out of the scene and feels like old Spike trying to turn them against each other. I would have preferred if that part had been less obvious. But the rest of the scene was well executed.

All the scenes between Willow and Anya are very fun to watch. It’s great because they’re kind of on the same level now, with both of them ending last season in a dark/evil place. Anya, though is still doing evil things but it’s nice to see that she isn’t into it as much as she’d thought “and the vengeance itself… it’s not as fulfilling as I remember” and how upsetting causing pain is. This episode feels like an introduction to Selfless for Anya. Anya telling Willow “I’m sorry Willow, I wish it were better for you”… is it me or Anya feels a bit more human and empathetic as a demon (the 2nd time around) than she was as a human?

I don’t like that buffy is so quick to put the blame on Willow, but I get it and it definitely makes sense. Willow not showing up is a big question mark so of course when a flayed body shows up, it’s hard not to jump to conclusions.

Dawn is awesome at research!!! I couldn’t help but cheer when she found the information on Gnarl. And she seems to enjoy it so much.

This is one of the most terrifying episodes for me and Willow’s sense of isolation and loneliness makes it 10x more terrifying. It was hard to see her so helpless. But in a weird way, I think it brought her some peace. The whole episode, we see her crushed with guilt, not wanting to face her friends, ask Anya to yell at her, etc. and I think she needed to feel punished for what she’s done. What greater punishment than to be slowly tortured and eaten by a gnarl, thinking no one will come and save you?

Anya telling Willow that Buffy and Xander are there made my eyes all water-y. It’s such an emotional moment and god I am loving Anya so much in this episode!

That last scene is one of my favorite Buffy/Willow scenes on the show. I love how much support and love there is between them. I love that Buffy confesses to her that she did think Willow was responsible for the flayed body and Willow understands it completely. And then we have “I have so much strength, I’m giving it away…” which feels like foreshadowing of Buffy sharing her powers in Chosen.

I find this episode incredibly underrated. It has a very cohesive plot and impeccable characterization for all the characters. Everything in this episode works for me. There’s no scene I would cut or anything that feels out of place, contrived or out of character. It has a big emotional resonance and also some funny moments. The ending is happy but there’s also an acknowledgement of how everything isn’t perfect.

My ranking so far :
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Beneath You

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Same Time, Same Place is a brilliant episode - Spike is in the basement talking separately to Willow and the combination of Buffy and Xander, using the same conversation for both parties but they don't know each other is there. The interleaving of dialog for both conversations is brilliant and it underscores the fact that Willow and the other scoobies are in separate universes, invisible to each other. It makes Spike seem even crazier than he is and one of the things he says is:

Everyone's talking to me, no one's
talking to each other.

Spike and Anya can see Willow and Willow can see them. Buffy and Xander could not see Willow until Gnarl was killed. This writing is Jane Espenson at her best.

 

[sosa lola]

Same Time, Same Place

Buffy, Xander and Dawn are in the airport waiting for Willow. I love how Xander is so excited to meet Willow with his cute large sign with words written in yellow crayon. Aww. Dawn is actually nervous about meeting Willow, I'm loving it, Dawn has got to be nervous and scared because the last time they'd seen Willow, she had no problem killing her friends just to get to what she wants. Buffy is also worried about seeing Willow, but I guess it's more about meeting Willow again than being scared of what she'll do.

Willow enters and finds no one, I really felt bad for her. It's strange that there's no photo of Willow in Buffy's desk, there's a photo of Anya for God's sake and not Willow?! The writers were taking it a little too far with the 'we're better off without Willow' vibe.

Dawn doesn't trust Willow that much, which I wish was developed into a longer storyline, with Dawn eventually being there for Willow in The Killer in Me instead of Kennedy. It's far more realistic to have someone in the gang being wary of Willow, and Dawn seems to be the perfect character for that since Willow hurt her more than anyone else last season (aside from Tara). The car accident as well as trying to turn Dawn into a ball of energy.

This episode is full of Willow/Anya slashy goodness. I'm not into female slash. At all! However, Anya/Willow is an exception, they're the female Spander! So much similarities between Spander and Anya/Willow.

I love noticing the little things like Xander easily feeling like throwing up whenever he sees a body. From Welcome to The Hellmouth and Xander doesn't handle watching dead bodies well. It's a nice touch that after all these years he still can't handle it.

The Willow/Spike/Buffy/Xander scene is AMAZING! I really love it, so confusing and funny. "Her boy? *I'm* her boy!" Spike tends to call Xander a boy, another wish I have was for a Xander/Spike friendship where Spike realizes Xander isn't a boy anymore.

Did I mention how I adore every single scene between Buffy/Xander/Dawn? I love how close those three have gotten, it kinda reminds me of Buffy/Xander/Willow in the high school years, especially with Dawn working on the computer. Complete Willow-ness.

Aww Xander mentioned Willie! I miss him! And Buffy dared to imply that Xander is stupid! And the poor thing is so used to it.

The Scoobies follow Spike, and then Xander pretends to smack into Spike's back. Spike grabs Xander, pulls him close, and whispers "I love you" in his ear. Xander looks at Spike shocked. Buffy is jealous. Sigh.

The scene with the demon eating Willow's flesh with her alive and feeling so helpless is very disturbing. Anyone who says that Willow was never punished or whatever for killing Warren, there! A demon is eating her skin and she's all alone!

Hmmm wasn't Anya's hair shorter in the last ep? How did it get this long? Also, I'm probably one of the minorities but Dawn's frozen body freaks me so much. It reminds me of the movie House of Wax. It freaks me out when people can't move.

Buffy, Xander and Anya head to the cave again. Another Wanya moment. And we see a foreshadowing to later events with Buffy sticking her thumbs into the demon's eyes with Xander getting so grossed out by it. Probably thanking God that it wasn't him. My poor, poor baby.

Willow seeing Xander and Buffy is the most heartbreaking scene in S7 so far. "Here they are, here they are"

Nice scene with Buffy and Willow, I think those two need to mend their friendship more than Xander/Willow. Xander can easily accept Willow no matter what she does, but will Buffy ever trust Willow and accept her again? There's such a beautiful vibe there with Buffy admitting she thought Willow killed the man, and Willow being so understanding. Perhaps Willow didn't get to go to jail or whatever (as a lot of fans wanted) but clearly she knew what she had done was wrong and the whole season shows her being scared of using her powers in fear she'd lose control.

10/10

 

[Grace]

I don’t like that buffy is so quick to put the blame on Willow, but I get it and it definitely makes sense. Willow not showing up is a big question mark so of course when a flayed body shows up, it’s hard not to jump to conclusions.

I would have liked it less if Buffy wasn't willing to consider that it was Willow, personally. As soon as they had another lead, Buffy pursued it, so she was keeping an open mind despite her suspicions.

I also noticed more on rewatch that Buffy wasn't the first one to jump to the conclusion -- when looking at the body at the construction site, Xander was the one who said: "Yeah, I know exactly what you're thinking. Maybe Willow is back." So I don't know why Buffy told Willow he never thought it. Willow was right. He clearly did at least think it.

This is one of the most terrifying episodes for me and Willow’s sense of isolation and loneliness makes it 10x more terrifying. It was hard to see her so helpless. But in a weird way, I think it brought her some peace. The whole episode, we see her crushed with guilt, not wanting to face her friends, ask Anya to yell at her, etc. and I think she needed to feel punished for what she’s done. What greater punishment than to be slowly tortured and eaten by a gnarl, thinking no one will come and save you?

This makes a lot of sense. Good insights! And I totally agree about the terrifying part. I had to look away!

That last scene is one of my favorite Buffy/Willow scenes on the show. I love how much support and love there is between them. I love that Buffy confesses to her that she did think Willow was responsible for the flayed body and Willow understands it completely. And then we have “I have so much strength, I’m giving it away…” which feels like foreshadowing of Buffy sharing her powers in Chosen.

I adore it, too, and I like the foreshadowing especially.

Willow enters and finds no one, I really felt bad for her. It's strange that there's no photo of Willow in Buffy's desk, there's a photo of Anya for God's sake and not Willow?! The writers were taking it a little too far with the 'we're better off without Willow' vibe.

Given that Willow was doing magic in this episode without knowing it, is it possible she was seeing what she expected to see rather than what was really there?

One question I had is why was everyone OK with not-sane Spike in the basement of the high school? Just seems weird. I did like that Anya and Spike could see Willow. I assume that's because Willow is not as concerned about facing them, but there's also the fact that they are both demons, and maybe Willow is feeling demon-y herself? While they are all at different points right now, there are definitely parallels between them this season.