Holden Webster
Townie
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2018
- Messages
- 40
- Age
- 33
Spike isn't rabid. And if they tie him up, they can't spy on him.
Mrs Gordo
Fair point yet they are taking a risk. One that cost a lady her life.
Sleeper:
"I don't know, creature of the night, Buff. He's probably out creaturing. (Buffy looks out the window) Why, what happened? Is he in trouble?"
Xander's attitude towards Spike changes significantly since Selfless. Also, notice Xander's easiness about Spike creaturing. I feel that the only Scooby who sees Spike's vampirism and later on accepts it is Xander. Buffy is still unsure what part of Spike she wants, the man or the vampire. Xander, on the other hand, sees both. He still sees Spike as a vampire, which is very smart, because no soul will make Angel and Spike magically something other than vampires. Angel, while with Buffy, wanted to feel human, and Spike wants that to some extent, only if these two accepted that they're vamps, life for them will be easier and they won't live in a lie.
I liked the Willow/Dawn moment. Seems that now that Buffy will be busy with Spike, Willow will step up to be the big sister. This scene also shows Dawn being like her big sister, keeping crucial info from her friends and family.
She doesn't tell Willow about what The First/Joyce told her. That Buffy will never choose her, and I think by that they meant the LMPTM bit when Buffy tells Giles that she'll sacrifice Dawn, however I believe Joyce meant the incident earlier in the same ep when Spike knocks Dawn out, but instead of 'choosing' to check on her sister, Buffy 'chooses' to check on Spike.
Buffy and Xander chat. Xander thinks that Spike's chip may not be working and that maybe Spike is pulling an act, and Buffy is all he's changed, I can feel it. Spuffy Awwws everybody.
Anyway, Spike walks in and is surprised that Buffy is there sitting with his boyfriend. (*Sorry about that*)
Spike: Well, this can't be good. You here at this hour.
He's right. Night time is for lovers to unite, and here's Spike back from work, in need of snuggles and some sweet Xanny moans, yet finds her Buffyness here breaking the love with her slayer troubles! **Sorry again**
Anya calls Xander "Harris" in S7 to show how much she dislikes him. Anyway, Xander, with the knowledge that Spike is on the killing again, lets Anya do the baby-sitting. I guess he still has some issues with Anya sleeping with Spike, and wants his revenge. 😉
ANYA
Better be, because if I get vamped, I'm gonna bite your ass.
XANDER
(walks out the door) Wouldn't be the first time. (smiles)
Awwww.
Anya walks into Spike's room with a stake -should I say room or closet? It's certainly as big as a royalty room. I must admit that I startled when Spike grabbed her hand. Cool touch. Hated how Anya went all 'I wanna have sex with you, Spike' humiliating herself in process. I also hate her haircut.
I agree with everybody about the trigger storyline not being fully realized.
6/10
"I don't know, creature of the night, Buff. He's probably out creaturing. (Buffy looks out the window) Why, what happened? Is he in trouble?"
Xander's attitude towards Spike changes significantly since Selfless. Also, notice Xander's easiness about Spike creaturing. I feel that the only Scooby who sees Spike's vampirism and later on accepts it is Xander. Buffy is still unsure what part of Spike she wants, the man or the vampire. Xander, on the other hand, sees both. He still sees Spike as a vampire, which is very smart, because no soul will make Angel and Spike magically something other than vampires. Angel, while with Buffy, wanted to feel human, and Spike wants that to some extent, only if these two accepted that they're vamps, life for them will be easier and they won't live in a lie.
I liked the Willow/Dawn moment. Seems that now that Buffy will be busy with Spike, Willow will step up to be the big sister. This scene also shows Dawn being like her big sister, keeping crucial info from her friends and family.
She doesn't tell Willow about what The First/Joyce told her. That Buffy will never choose her, and I think by that they meant the LMPTM bit when Buffy tells Giles that she'll sacrifice Dawn, however I believe Joyce meant the incident earlier in the same ep when Spike knocks Dawn out, but instead of 'choosing' to check on her sister, Buffy 'chooses' to check on Spike.
Buffy and Xander chat. Xander thinks that Spike's chip may not be working and that maybe Spike is pulling an act, and Buffy is all he's changed, I can feel it. Spuffy Awwws everybody.
Anyway, Spike walks in and is surprised that Buffy is there sitting with his boyfriend. (*Sorry about that*)
Spike: Well, this can't be good. You here at this hour.
He's right. Night time is for lovers to unite, and here's Spike back from work, in need of snuggles and some sweet Xanny moans, yet finds her Buffyness here breaking the love with her slayer troubles! **Sorry again**
Anya calls Xander "Harris" in S7 to show how much she dislikes him. Anyway, Xander, with the knowledge that Spike is on the killing again, lets Anya do the baby-sitting. I guess he still has some issues with Anya sleeping with Spike, and wants his revenge. 😉
ANYA
Better be, because if I get vamped, I'm gonna bite your ass.
XANDER
(walks out the door) Wouldn't be the first time. (smiles)
Awwww.
Anya walks into Spike's room with a stake -should I say room or closet? It's certainly as big as a royalty room. I must admit that I startled when Spike grabbed her hand. Cool touch. Hated how Anya went all 'I wanna have sex with you, Spike' humiliating herself in process. I also hate her haircut.
I agree with everybody about the trigger storyline not being fully realized.
6/10
Never Leave Me
The first scene shows Dawn and Anya being very skeptical of Buffy's decision to keep Spike in the house. On the other hand, Xander and Willow are very supportive of Buffy and don't question her judgement. Anya tries to get Xander to badmouth Spike, but Xander doesn't fall for the bait and continues fulfilling his subtle season arc: "I've got a house to put back together."
Xander is super hot in this scene, though.
Dawn is really funny when she talked about Buffy oozing from both ends to Principal Wood.
Also loved Willow joking about feeding Anya to Spike, heh.
When Willow started to threaten Andrew about being a super badass witch, I was dreading that she'd mention having so much *power*, that word is way too overused.
Xander with toolbelt is still super hot.
Xander and Anya playing good cop bad cop with Andrew was very amusing.
Buffy and Spike talked about how Spike got his soul back and their S6 relationship. I thought it was an honest conversation and I do think that Spike hates himself for his sins when he was soulless – just like Angel did. He was trying to get Buffy to kill him/get rid of him by reminding her and informing her of the horrible things he used to do to girls’ Dawn’s age. Using Dawn’s name to make to stir Buffy’s emotions.
Buffy instantly forgave Angel for the crimes he did without a soul. I see why she’d do the same with Spike. “He has a soul now.”
Xander figures out Spike draining Andrew isn't Spike's fault and comes up with the trigger theory. Xander did really grow and change in S7. He's very objective about Spike and trusts Buffy's judgement when it comes to him.
Demons start attacking the house and lots of fun fighting, with Dawn fighting, and then The Father of The House AKA Xander comes to the rescue.
Sadly, though, the parents of the house, Buffy and Xander, discover that their son William the Bloody has been kidnapped. After making sure baby Andrew was soundlessly asleep, the parents of the house come downstairs to check on the rest of the kids. Seriously, Buffy and Xander do feel like the mother and father of the season.
The Watcher council explodes. Such a wasted opportunity.
8/10 It was more fun to watch than the last ep.
The first scene shows Dawn and Anya being very skeptical of Buffy's decision to keep Spike in the house. On the other hand, Xander and Willow are very supportive of Buffy and don't question her judgement. Anya tries to get Xander to badmouth Spike, but Xander doesn't fall for the bait and continues fulfilling his subtle season arc: "I've got a house to put back together."
Xander is super hot in this scene, though.
Dawn is really funny when she talked about Buffy oozing from both ends to Principal Wood.
Also loved Willow joking about feeding Anya to Spike, heh.
When Willow started to threaten Andrew about being a super badass witch, I was dreading that she'd mention having so much *power*, that word is way too overused.
Xander with toolbelt is still super hot.
Xander and Anya playing good cop bad cop with Andrew was very amusing.
Buffy and Spike talked about how Spike got his soul back and their S6 relationship. I thought it was an honest conversation and I do think that Spike hates himself for his sins when he was soulless – just like Angel did. He was trying to get Buffy to kill him/get rid of him by reminding her and informing her of the horrible things he used to do to girls’ Dawn’s age. Using Dawn’s name to make to stir Buffy’s emotions.
Buffy instantly forgave Angel for the crimes he did without a soul. I see why she’d do the same with Spike. “He has a soul now.”
Xander figures out Spike draining Andrew isn't Spike's fault and comes up with the trigger theory. Xander did really grow and change in S7. He's very objective about Spike and trusts Buffy's judgement when it comes to him.
Demons start attacking the house and lots of fun fighting, with Dawn fighting, and then The Father of The House AKA Xander comes to the rescue.
Sadly, though, the parents of the house, Buffy and Xander, discover that their son William the Bloody has been kidnapped. After making sure baby Andrew was soundlessly asleep, the parents of the house come downstairs to check on the rest of the kids. Seriously, Buffy and Xander do feel like the mother and father of the season.
The Watcher council explodes. Such a wasted opportunity.
8/10 It was more fun to watch than the last ep.
Never Leave Me
- “Shouldn’t we stab him through the chest, I mean isn’t that what we do when these things happen.” Anya... throwing down some valid questions. Although ultimately I agree that Spike should not be killed now that he has a soul if he is being controlled.
- this is the first time we see human blood as an addictive thing. I mean there is reference to it in Angel after he fed on Buffy that there was some difficulty containing his impulses. But he wasn’t in the same state Spike is in. I suppose Spike fed from more humans... so his withdrawal is stronger?
Lol at “that’ll do pig!”
Willow looks so beautiful in this episode.
Spike telling Buffy about the trials, torture, the pain and suffering he went through to get his soul - what is the point in that exactly? What purpose does it serve besides making Buffy feel bad?
Ok sorry Xander I feel your pain but Anya didn’t do anything to you - you left her. The emptiness is your doing.
So much of the blaming going around with these guys... and no one is calling them out on their stuff. You know who would come in handy here? Cordy.
Principal Wood is a very good looking man.
I’m conflicted on the “better man” speech. So this is Spike’s Amends moment. And on the one hand I appreciate his nobility in asking to be killed - I respect that he knows what he is capable of and doesn’t want to hurt anyone else, I also respect Buffy’s decision to give Spike the opportunity to be a better man and that she tells him that she believes in him. It’s wonderful that Spike has that kind of fierce support during this trying time.
But on the other side of it there are some things I dislike and that puzzle me:
- why Spike believes that Buffy “likes men who hurt her” or that she “needs the hate” when he is the only one who has been in a relationship with Buffy that was abusive is puzzling and it also shows me that Buffy is right - he doesn’t know her. He knows depression!Buffy but pre-depression Buffy didn’t subject herself to abuse or hate.
- “You risked everything to be a better man. And you can be.” If the line stops here I’m golden. Because after all a soul gives Spike a chance to be a better person to make amends. But then, “You are. You may not see it but I do. I do.” And this is where she loses me. No - he is not yet a better man. Getting a soul doesn’t make you a better man. It’s what you do with that soul that counts. And what is even more puzzling is that Buffy used to know this - her speech to Angel in amends:
“you have the power to do real good, to make
amends. But if you die now, then all that you ever were was a monster.”
So you see Angel may have fought along side Buffy for over a year at this point but she knows that a soul doesn’t make you a good person it’s what you do with it that does. Spike hasn’t done much with his yet. He is not yet a better man. But he can be. And he deserves the chance. Regardless of the path that lead him here (a path I find difficult to support).
A few other things:
S7 is notorious for speeches. So:
Buffy speech count: 2? (Selfless/ NLM) let me know if I’m missing one.
The summers house is constantly getting destroyed in S7 it’s funny.
I guess CWDP is the beginning of the “General Buffy” persona. We don’t really see her smile much from here on out. I don’t blame her for being cold and distant with Spike because of their history but I do see it bleeding over some in how she interacts with the scoobies.
Later Watcher’s! I wish we would’ve had a chance to see more from them. Maybe an arc seeing them as the big bad. One of my fav things is the fics that peg them as this corrupt organization.
Turkey Khans!
This episode was pretty good from an exposition standpoint. I feel like this could be any other seasons penultimate episode though because there is so much building up in this season. Do we ever get a break again or is it just full steam ahead to war? I can’t recall.
- “Shouldn’t we stab him through the chest, I mean isn’t that what we do when these things happen.” Anya... throwing down some valid questions. Although ultimately I agree that Spike should not be killed now that he has a soul if he is being controlled.
- this is the first time we see human blood as an addictive thing. I mean there is reference to it in Angel after he fed on Buffy that there was some difficulty containing his impulses. But he wasn’t in the same state Spike is in. I suppose Spike fed from more humans... so his withdrawal is stronger?
Lol at “that’ll do pig!”
Willow looks so beautiful in this episode.
Spike telling Buffy about the trials, torture, the pain and suffering he went through to get his soul - what is the point in that exactly? What purpose does it serve besides making Buffy feel bad?
Ok sorry Xander I feel your pain but Anya didn’t do anything to you - you left her. The emptiness is your doing.
So much of the blaming going around with these guys... and no one is calling them out on their stuff. You know who would come in handy here? Cordy.
Principal Wood is a very good looking man.
I’m conflicted on the “better man” speech. So this is Spike’s Amends moment. And on the one hand I appreciate his nobility in asking to be killed - I respect that he knows what he is capable of and doesn’t want to hurt anyone else, I also respect Buffy’s decision to give Spike the opportunity to be a better man and that she tells him that she believes in him. It’s wonderful that Spike has that kind of fierce support during this trying time.
But on the other side of it there are some things I dislike and that puzzle me:
- why Spike believes that Buffy “likes men who hurt her” or that she “needs the hate” when he is the only one who has been in a relationship with Buffy that was abusive is puzzling and it also shows me that Buffy is right - he doesn’t know her. He knows depression!Buffy but pre-depression Buffy didn’t subject herself to abuse or hate.
- “You risked everything to be a better man. And you can be.” If the line stops here I’m golden. Because after all a soul gives Spike a chance to be a better person to make amends. But then, “You are. You may not see it but I do. I do.” And this is where she loses me. No - he is not yet a better man. Getting a soul doesn’t make you a better man. It’s what you do with that soul that counts. And what is even more puzzling is that Buffy used to know this - her speech to Angel in amends:
“you have the power to do real good, to make
amends. But if you die now, then all that you ever were was a monster.”
So you see Angel may have fought along side Buffy for over a year at this point but she knows that a soul doesn’t make you a good person it’s what you do with it that does. Spike hasn’t done much with his yet. He is not yet a better man. But he can be. And he deserves the chance. Regardless of the path that lead him here (a path I find difficult to support).
A few other things:
S7 is notorious for speeches. So:
Buffy speech count: 2? (Selfless/ NLM) let me know if I’m missing one.
The summers house is constantly getting destroyed in S7 it’s funny.
I guess CWDP is the beginning of the “General Buffy” persona. We don’t really see her smile much from here on out. I don’t blame her for being cold and distant with Spike because of their history but I do see it bleeding over some in how she interacts with the scoobies.
Later Watcher’s! I wish we would’ve had a chance to see more from them. Maybe an arc seeing them as the big bad. One of my fav things is the fics that peg them as this corrupt organization.
Turkey Khans!
This episode was pretty good from an exposition standpoint. I feel like this could be any other seasons penultimate episode though because there is so much building up in this season. Do we ever get a break again or is it just full steam ahead to war? I can’t recall.
Last edited:
Grace
Turkey Khans! I wrote that in my notes too! Yaaaaasssss!
Grace
Destructo-Girl
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 1,792
Never Leave Me
Hey, it's time for a parallel switch! Now it's time for Andrew to get in the hot seat as Spike's parallel character. Him putting on the black trench reminded me of Him and the discussion we had about that episode. Now they're both agents of The First and getting tied to chairs and interrogated in the Summers house.
Overall, I agree with @dcai0830 that Never Leave Me is good from an exposition standpoint. We get a lot of new details, and there's some fun mixed into the madness.
One thing I wondered about during this episode was what Giles' relationship to the Council was between when he went back to England and when it got blowed up. Quentin Travers the Jerkface refers to Giles as being "lapsed," but he was in a Council meeting when Willow called in STSP and he seemed up on what was going on with Robson, etc. Maybe QT the Jerkface was just being obstinate. Does anyone have a nice head canon for me? (I'm guessing we don't get a definite answer to this later, given the whole BOOM! thing.)
You might appreciate @Taaroko's headcanon on this: "However, I’m going to have it as my headcanon that when she was giving Spike that pep-talk, she was saying what she thought would get through to him the best, not what she actually thought. Because she could only have been referring to his quest to regain his soul, but as I’ve said several times, that was not what made Spike good. It was just what made him have a soul. What he does next is what will determine if he’s good or not."
Sounds like you two are on the same page. 🙂
I think General Buffy starts in earnest at the end of Bring on the Night, but you're right that she starts seeming pretty distant/miserable with CWDP. I think it's pretty much war from here on out, though I think we do get a few lighter episodes mixed in (First Date and Storyteller are coming to mind.)
I initially thought it was stupid of the First to blow up the Watchers' Council, since they were the very people who had kept the rules of engagement in place for so long. One girl in all the world and all that jazz. But, given my theory about how the Giles-is-The-First fakeout is a metaphorical clue, I do think that it actually makes sense. It focuses the ideas of the Watchers' Council into Giles, a character we know and love, instead of in Quentin Travers the Jerkface & Co. Buffy has never had much problem rejecting the Council. But Giles is a different story — she's defied him before but never really rejected him.
I'll be watching more closely as we go through the next few eps, but my thought is that what we might be seeing is that well-meaning patriarchy, symbolized in a character we love, can be a harder thing to overcome than the overt "you do what we say" attitude of the Council. Giles encourages Buffy to take on the role of general, but what we need is not just a woman to take on a position of power in a patriarchal system, but for the system itself to change.
Hey, it's time for a parallel switch! Now it's time for Andrew to get in the hot seat as Spike's parallel character. Him putting on the black trench reminded me of Him and the discussion we had about that episode. Now they're both agents of The First and getting tied to chairs and interrogated in the Summers house.
Overall, I agree with @dcai0830 that Never Leave Me is good from an exposition standpoint. We get a lot of new details, and there's some fun mixed into the madness.
One thing I wondered about during this episode was what Giles' relationship to the Council was between when he went back to England and when it got blowed up. Quentin Travers the Jerkface refers to Giles as being "lapsed," but he was in a Council meeting when Willow called in STSP and he seemed up on what was going on with Robson, etc. Maybe QT the Jerkface was just being obstinate. Does anyone have a nice head canon for me? (I'm guessing we don't get a definite answer to this later, given the whole BOOM! thing.)
You might appreciate @Taaroko's headcanon on this: "However, I’m going to have it as my headcanon that when she was giving Spike that pep-talk, she was saying what she thought would get through to him the best, not what she actually thought. Because she could only have been referring to his quest to regain his soul, but as I’ve said several times, that was not what made Spike good. It was just what made him have a soul. What he does next is what will determine if he’s good or not."
Sounds like you two are on the same page. 🙂
I think General Buffy starts in earnest at the end of Bring on the Night, but you're right that she starts seeming pretty distant/miserable with CWDP. I think it's pretty much war from here on out, though I think we do get a few lighter episodes mixed in (First Date and Storyteller are coming to mind.)
I initially thought it was stupid of the First to blow up the Watchers' Council, since they were the very people who had kept the rules of engagement in place for so long. One girl in all the world and all that jazz. But, given my theory about how the Giles-is-The-First fakeout is a metaphorical clue, I do think that it actually makes sense. It focuses the ideas of the Watchers' Council into Giles, a character we know and love, instead of in Quentin Travers the Jerkface & Co. Buffy has never had much problem rejecting the Council. But Giles is a different story — she's defied him before but never really rejected him.
I'll be watching more closely as we go through the next few eps, but my thought is that what we might be seeing is that well-meaning patriarchy, symbolized in a character we love, can be a harder thing to overcome than the overt "you do what we say" attitude of the Council. Giles encourages Buffy to take on the role of general, but what we need is not just a woman to take on a position of power in a patriarchal system, but for the system itself to change.
Last edited:
Wasn't Joss actually going to make Giles an agent for TF? And backed out?
lol @ "QT the Jerkface"
Grace
Destructo-Girl
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 1,792
EarthLogic
Scooby
Finally starting to catch up...
Same Time, Same Place:
I really liked this episode. I think together with 'Something Blue' and 'Tabula Rasa' it forms a kind of trilogy - "Willow's Unintentional Magic" - but what's really nice about this final part is how it provides a tonal counterpoint to the other two. 'Something Blue' came about because of Willow's inexperience and so it's plot is of the wacky fun variety, TR was due to her compulsive desire to fix things and while also funny, the narrative that frames it is much more serious and so it's consequences are graver. Here it's now because of her intense experience with magic and the connection she has developed with it; it's so much a part of her that there's no spell involved this time; she just unconsciously instigates a reality-shift. Accordingly, we get a bit of funny with posable Dawn, but Gnarl is genuinely terrifying. The episode is slow-paced for the first half, which allows it to delve into the Scoobies' emotions and really earn that final scene.
The closing scene is probably my favourite of the season so far. It's beautifully tender and peaceful and it's wonderful to see the two of them sharing a moment like this again. If remember correctly, many of their most intimate best-friend moments have featured them sitting on a bed: 'Prophecy Girl' - Willow recounting her horror at the murders is what motivates Buffy to face the Master; 'Passion' - after Angel's fish-threat-attack; 'The Prom' - Buffy cries in Willow's lap; (I'm sure there are more in S4 and 5, but I can't recall them right now. I'm pretty sure I'm right with the bed-moments thing though..). And of course, it prefigures the power-sharing in Chosen.
Other good:
- Dawn continues to be awesome and I love how she has matured. It's just a shame we didn't actually get to see that change taking place over S6.
- Anyone else get a kick out of Dawn using the 'Demons Demons Demons' website to research Gnarl? Yay for cross-show continuity.
- Gnarl - props to the makeup and effects team for this one. I actually think he's creepier than the Hush demons and Der Kindestod. The skin-peeling made me shudder - I have a pretty high tolerance for blood and gore but something about skin peeling makes my stomach churn.
- Spike/Willow/Buffy/Xander scene in the basement is brilliantly done (though does Xander know he has a soul yet?)
- Anya reassuring Willow that her friends are there is heartwarming
- Willow being able to see Spike and Anya sets up their parallel journeys towards forgiveness this season.
The Bad:
Can't think of anything really, though the slash joke where Anya asks if the magic would get sexy fell a bit flat for me. Magic hasn't really functioned as a lesbian-sex metaphor since season 4/5, and of course Anya hasn't been privy to the witchy moments between Willow and Tara the way the viewer has, so it feels like it was simply a nod to fandom.
Help:
I wanted to like this episode much more than I did. Thematically it's interesting and is setting us up for how Buffy will deal with the Potentials later but....I just don't buy it. I can see how it might be a borrowing of the AtS message, but it feels underdeveloped and unearned here. I think it's partly undermined by the way Buffy's failure to save people is treated in 'Lessons', where she dismisses the ghouls' complaints in an offhanded manner. I know the context is different; there's no point Buffy agonising over their deaths as she cannot go back and change things whereas she believes she can help avoid Cassie's fate, but it's a quite a dramatic shift within three episodes in terms of how the theme is handled. Earlier episodes, such as the the S2's Angelus arc dealt with Buffy's guilt at not being able to save victims in a much better way, as did 'Lie to Me', which I think gave us the best meditation on this. Then of course 'The Body' is all about the banality and helplessness of facing an ordinary death. Against all these examples this episode lacks the depth and weight the concept should have. The best part was probably the final shot, which simply observes Buffy from a distance, framed through the office window, quietly getting back to work, but it's resonance is diluted by the overall weakness of the episode.
Another factor is that we're only three episodes in. Buffy isn't fully invested in her role as counsellor yet (or at least doesn't come across as such) and neither are we. It's not as if she has spent a good part of the season trying to help the kids and then found she can't save one. The high-school years connection is also weak here. For this episode's back-to-the-beginning element, Cassie's speech calls back to Buffy's high school concerns/experiences: winter formal, ice-skating. There's also an echo in it of 'Prophecy Girl': 'I'm 16 years old. I don't wanna die' but based on this I can see why some people may find the episode manipulative. The sympathy that's meant to be cultivated by the reference feels forced and unearned because Cassie is a) relatively unknown to us (bit underdeveloped too) and b) so utterly resigned to her death. I think the sentimental scoring during this scene is also a little overdone.
The Good:
- Still loving the Buffy/Xander/Dawn trio. It just feels so natural.
- Willow at Tara's grave was beautiful and bittersweet. I liked the little touch of her leaving a stone on her grave as per Jewish custom
- I know some people didn't like Amanda but I did. She reminds me a bit of Fred: outwardly timid-waif demeanour but has a hidden tenacity/aggression: 'I jumped him in the parking lot, and I slammed his stupid-ass insecure face right into the pavement....Do you think I should pound on him some more?' Hehehe.
The Bad:
- I don't understand why Buffy, Xander and Dawn hiding in the funeral home just to take out one elderly vampire. I know Xander points out how inefficient their method is but why did it require all three of them anyway? This is something earlier Buffy could have easily accomplished herself. Was she bored? Wanted company?
- 'From beneath you'... 'it's gonna be bad'. I wish they wouldn't keep hitting us over the head with this. It's a blatant case of telling rather than showing us the doom and at this point I'm not convinced since I can't figure out how they've all made the leap from mysterious slayer dreams to getting ready for some Big Bad. You could argue that everyone 'feeling' this impending badness is in keeping with the season's theme of instinct, but it really just feels like the writers needing to hammer home the stakes because it's the final season.
- I don't know if this has ever been adequately explained but how the hell could Cassie's mum not ever tell her own daughter that she could have a potentially fatal heart condition?!!!! Even we're supposed to think she truly couldn't bring herself to do it (which is shockingly neglectful parenting IMO), if it was part of her family history then it's something Cassie's family doctor would know and as a young woman she surely should have been privy to that information when she visited her doctor? There's a whole ethical issue that just gets sidelined and I'm not sure why it was necessary.
- I found it odd that Xander didn't say a word when he and Buffy paid Cassie's father a visit. Of all the Scoobies, he should have been the one to identify with the situation at taht point the most. Perhaps the writers just forgot that.
- The robed ritual boys are obviously a callback to 'Reptile Boy', the idea being that it's lame from an adult Buffy's perspective as opposed to teenage Buffy. I do agree with Mark Field that the original concept was lame anyway - well, IMO it had a cheese-factor which it acknowledged and therefore neutralised - and so this episode as a commentary on the earlier one doesn't work, but to be honest 'Reptile Boy' is actually a more interesting episode and not as idiotic as this S7 reference implies. The difference is that RB had a bit of a power dynamic created by the college boy/high school girl age difference, with added misogyny. In 'Help' they really are just high school idiots playing silly games.
-Spike in the basement - it's not really clear why exactly he is still there. In 'Lessons' he was obviously being tormented by the First, but since then we haven't seen anything to further that plot point. Also, why is his crazy still all about Buffy? I'm in two minds about whether this is plausible. On the one hand, being focused on the girl is a consistent part of his character, having carried over strongly from his human days. On the other, I do feel like it's rather unrealistic for a guy(pire), whose memories include things like torture and slaughtering an orphanage, to fixate his guilt on what he did to Buffy - which in fact wasn't even something he managed to successfully carry out. I realise the 'hurt' he talks about can also include emotional hurt, which granted is true, but it still seems disproportionate to me simply because I would imagine the weight of all his other horrific crimes would be overwhelming.
The Interesting:
- I know Principal Wood behaves terribly later in the season but, damn he's pretty!
- Am I the only one who thinks the demon that was summoned looked a lot like Skip from AtS?
- Buffy's face when Willow reads Cassie's poem - the mention of graves and dirt seems to strike a chord with her.
- Buffy really isn't qualified to be a counsellor given her own communication issues, but she does have very good empathetic instincts, which may be the point of her being in this role (aside from primarily being a plot device to keep her in the school environment) - she does demonstrate the extent of her capacity for forgiveness and compassion this season with Willow, Spike and Anya.
- Mike: 'she's a girl right? Making boys crazy is kinda like your job description'. This scene comes straight after the basement one with Spike - I wonder if that's significant?
Same Time, Same Place:
I really liked this episode. I think together with 'Something Blue' and 'Tabula Rasa' it forms a kind of trilogy - "Willow's Unintentional Magic" - but what's really nice about this final part is how it provides a tonal counterpoint to the other two. 'Something Blue' came about because of Willow's inexperience and so it's plot is of the wacky fun variety, TR was due to her compulsive desire to fix things and while also funny, the narrative that frames it is much more serious and so it's consequences are graver. Here it's now because of her intense experience with magic and the connection she has developed with it; it's so much a part of her that there's no spell involved this time; she just unconsciously instigates a reality-shift. Accordingly, we get a bit of funny with posable Dawn, but Gnarl is genuinely terrifying. The episode is slow-paced for the first half, which allows it to delve into the Scoobies' emotions and really earn that final scene.
The closing scene is probably my favourite of the season so far. It's beautifully tender and peaceful and it's wonderful to see the two of them sharing a moment like this again. If remember correctly, many of their most intimate best-friend moments have featured them sitting on a bed: 'Prophecy Girl' - Willow recounting her horror at the murders is what motivates Buffy to face the Master; 'Passion' - after Angel's fish-threat-attack; 'The Prom' - Buffy cries in Willow's lap; (I'm sure there are more in S4 and 5, but I can't recall them right now. I'm pretty sure I'm right with the bed-moments thing though..). And of course, it prefigures the power-sharing in Chosen.
Other good:
- Dawn continues to be awesome and I love how she has matured. It's just a shame we didn't actually get to see that change taking place over S6.
- Anyone else get a kick out of Dawn using the 'Demons Demons Demons' website to research Gnarl? Yay for cross-show continuity.
- Gnarl - props to the makeup and effects team for this one. I actually think he's creepier than the Hush demons and Der Kindestod. The skin-peeling made me shudder - I have a pretty high tolerance for blood and gore but something about skin peeling makes my stomach churn.
- Spike/Willow/Buffy/Xander scene in the basement is brilliantly done (though does Xander know he has a soul yet?)
- Anya reassuring Willow that her friends are there is heartwarming
- Willow being able to see Spike and Anya sets up their parallel journeys towards forgiveness this season.
The Bad:
Can't think of anything really, though the slash joke where Anya asks if the magic would get sexy fell a bit flat for me. Magic hasn't really functioned as a lesbian-sex metaphor since season 4/5, and of course Anya hasn't been privy to the witchy moments between Willow and Tara the way the viewer has, so it feels like it was simply a nod to fandom.
Help:
I wanted to like this episode much more than I did. Thematically it's interesting and is setting us up for how Buffy will deal with the Potentials later but....I just don't buy it. I can see how it might be a borrowing of the AtS message, but it feels underdeveloped and unearned here. I think it's partly undermined by the way Buffy's failure to save people is treated in 'Lessons', where she dismisses the ghouls' complaints in an offhanded manner. I know the context is different; there's no point Buffy agonising over their deaths as she cannot go back and change things whereas she believes she can help avoid Cassie's fate, but it's a quite a dramatic shift within three episodes in terms of how the theme is handled. Earlier episodes, such as the the S2's Angelus arc dealt with Buffy's guilt at not being able to save victims in a much better way, as did 'Lie to Me', which I think gave us the best meditation on this. Then of course 'The Body' is all about the banality and helplessness of facing an ordinary death. Against all these examples this episode lacks the depth and weight the concept should have. The best part was probably the final shot, which simply observes Buffy from a distance, framed through the office window, quietly getting back to work, but it's resonance is diluted by the overall weakness of the episode.
Another factor is that we're only three episodes in. Buffy isn't fully invested in her role as counsellor yet (or at least doesn't come across as such) and neither are we. It's not as if she has spent a good part of the season trying to help the kids and then found she can't save one. The high-school years connection is also weak here. For this episode's back-to-the-beginning element, Cassie's speech calls back to Buffy's high school concerns/experiences: winter formal, ice-skating. There's also an echo in it of 'Prophecy Girl': 'I'm 16 years old. I don't wanna die' but based on this I can see why some people may find the episode manipulative. The sympathy that's meant to be cultivated by the reference feels forced and unearned because Cassie is a) relatively unknown to us (bit underdeveloped too) and b) so utterly resigned to her death. I think the sentimental scoring during this scene is also a little overdone.
The Good:
- Still loving the Buffy/Xander/Dawn trio. It just feels so natural.
- Willow at Tara's grave was beautiful and bittersweet. I liked the little touch of her leaving a stone on her grave as per Jewish custom
- I know some people didn't like Amanda but I did. She reminds me a bit of Fred: outwardly timid-waif demeanour but has a hidden tenacity/aggression: 'I jumped him in the parking lot, and I slammed his stupid-ass insecure face right into the pavement....Do you think I should pound on him some more?' Hehehe.
The Bad:
- I don't understand why Buffy, Xander and Dawn hiding in the funeral home just to take out one elderly vampire. I know Xander points out how inefficient their method is but why did it require all three of them anyway? This is something earlier Buffy could have easily accomplished herself. Was she bored? Wanted company?
- 'From beneath you'... 'it's gonna be bad'. I wish they wouldn't keep hitting us over the head with this. It's a blatant case of telling rather than showing us the doom and at this point I'm not convinced since I can't figure out how they've all made the leap from mysterious slayer dreams to getting ready for some Big Bad. You could argue that everyone 'feeling' this impending badness is in keeping with the season's theme of instinct, but it really just feels like the writers needing to hammer home the stakes because it's the final season.
- I don't know if this has ever been adequately explained but how the hell could Cassie's mum not ever tell her own daughter that she could have a potentially fatal heart condition?!!!! Even we're supposed to think she truly couldn't bring herself to do it (which is shockingly neglectful parenting IMO), if it was part of her family history then it's something Cassie's family doctor would know and as a young woman she surely should have been privy to that information when she visited her doctor? There's a whole ethical issue that just gets sidelined and I'm not sure why it was necessary.
- I found it odd that Xander didn't say a word when he and Buffy paid Cassie's father a visit. Of all the Scoobies, he should have been the one to identify with the situation at taht point the most. Perhaps the writers just forgot that.
- The robed ritual boys are obviously a callback to 'Reptile Boy', the idea being that it's lame from an adult Buffy's perspective as opposed to teenage Buffy. I do agree with Mark Field that the original concept was lame anyway - well, IMO it had a cheese-factor which it acknowledged and therefore neutralised - and so this episode as a commentary on the earlier one doesn't work, but to be honest 'Reptile Boy' is actually a more interesting episode and not as idiotic as this S7 reference implies. The difference is that RB had a bit of a power dynamic created by the college boy/high school girl age difference, with added misogyny. In 'Help' they really are just high school idiots playing silly games.
-Spike in the basement - it's not really clear why exactly he is still there. In 'Lessons' he was obviously being tormented by the First, but since then we haven't seen anything to further that plot point. Also, why is his crazy still all about Buffy? I'm in two minds about whether this is plausible. On the one hand, being focused on the girl is a consistent part of his character, having carried over strongly from his human days. On the other, I do feel like it's rather unrealistic for a guy(pire), whose memories include things like torture and slaughtering an orphanage, to fixate his guilt on what he did to Buffy - which in fact wasn't even something he managed to successfully carry out. I realise the 'hurt' he talks about can also include emotional hurt, which granted is true, but it still seems disproportionate to me simply because I would imagine the weight of all his other horrific crimes would be overwhelming.
The Interesting:
- I know Principal Wood behaves terribly later in the season but, damn he's pretty!
- Am I the only one who thinks the demon that was summoned looked a lot like Skip from AtS?
- Buffy's face when Willow reads Cassie's poem - the mention of graves and dirt seems to strike a chord with her.
- Buffy really isn't qualified to be a counsellor given her own communication issues, but she does have very good empathetic instincts, which may be the point of her being in this role (aside from primarily being a plot device to keep her in the school environment) - she does demonstrate the extent of her capacity for forgiveness and compassion this season with Willow, Spike and Anya.
- Mike: 'she's a girl right? Making boys crazy is kinda like your job description'. This scene comes straight after the basement one with Spike - I wonder if that's significant?
Last edited:
I was thinking about this now that I'm further into the re-watch. I think we get Buffy back in the counselor seat a few more times in this season but otherwise not much. She is now going to shift her attention away from being a school counselor and into the big fight she has with TF. So looking back on this episode, it puzzles me even more. Her role as a counselor literally could have been taken out of this season and nothing would have changed and doesn't that make the final scene even less impactful? The counselor gig is just a poorly constructed plot device that serves this episode and a few others that require her to be at school. It feels very hallow knowing that she isn't going back to the grind as Buffy the School Counselor but is going to quickly shed that persona before she could even develop it. (I do not count a montage of students coming in to vent to her developing it... )
And along these lines, why does the season chose to break everything down so early on? Isn't that the beauty of the other seasons on this show to show that things are going along with a sort of faux sense of normalcy (with things bubbling under the surface) and then towards the end of the season everything is stripped away and situation becomes dire? If the entire season is dire from about episode 7 - the whole season becomes too heavy. And I haven't ever given but much thought into why I don't like re-watching s7 (outside of some of the messages it sends which I disagree with in a big way) but as I make my way through this really seems like a chore to me. It is too heavy. There is no humor to cut through the sadness or the darkness. (And yes I know Storyteller is coming and honestly - I can't wait) but I think they got too heavy too fast and it makes it hard to watch. It feels like I'm watching The Walking Dead.
nice term.
Bring on the Night
- It's interesting that during the dream with her mom Buffy suddenly feels softer, her demanor is younger like early seasons Buffy. There is a vulnerability in that interaction.
- I LOVE JULIET LANDAU. Bring her back to meeeee!
- Ugh Kennedy... welcome you can go die now.
- Giles "Sorry to barge in. We have a slight apocalypse." - love it.
- Oh dear God.... one of these days these writers will learn that VAMPIRES DON'T BREATHE. You can't waterboard a vamire.... they DON'T BREATHE.
- I don't understand TF's pitch to Spike here? And can't Spike just say OK I'm on your team - be set free and then turn on TF?
- Ok so what's the deal with Buffy when Willow is apologizing? How am I supposed to read that? Is she thinking about her mom and how she said her friends put too much pressure on her? It is a valid concern of Willow's not to go bad. Buffy doesn't feel very sympathetic here. I can't read her emotional reaction. She feels very cold and I can't tell if this is bad acting or purposeful?
- Everyone please note how strong these Turkey Khans are.... lets keep that in mind when we see this later:
- Spike has been inspired by Buffy to stand up to the first, he believes in himself because Buffy believes in him. Paradoxically, Buffy is having a moment of self-doubt, she is having trouble believing in herself. Who will she gain inspiration from? How will she learn/come to believe that she can find a way to beat this thing?
- It is so tough to see Buffy so defeated and beaten down (physical and emotionally) but this is such an interesting story. Although we have seen this before with Glory - so it's not necessarily unique. It's always interesting to see Buffy struggle to beat her opponent because it creates some drama and tension (it's boring when we know she is going to win like s4).
One thing that is interesting is how Buffy references the time she faced TF in s3 and how it felt ancient and old and powerful etc. But - I have to say having just watched Amends not too long ago. I don't remember getting that impression that she was all that scared or impressed by TF. She taunts it saying things like "Alright your evil - I get it." She never goes back to Giles to tell him what she felt etc. I guess it's one of those things I have to just believe as is written. And I'm fine with that.
The arrival of the potentials sends shivers down my spine because it already feels so crowded and it's only the first batch of girls. I want more time with my scoobies.
I love Buffy's speech at the end - its one of my favs of the season (if not my favorite). She seems very vulnerable to me and almost scared but yet she is drawing from some inner strength. I don't get the impression she believes all of the words she is saying. I think she is experiencing major self doubt but she believes this is what she needs to convey to her friends. That these are the motivational words they need to hear in order to prepare for the battle. And you gotta love - "I'm standing on the mouth of hell, and it is gonna swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." Especially because it calls back to Season 1 - Welcome to the Hellmouth and Angel's warning to her: "You're standing at the Mouth of Hell. And it's about to open."
Buffy Speech Count: 4 *I previously failed to count her speech to Dawn in Him*
Hey no "From beneath you it devours!" this time right?
As a stand alone episode its not bad. It's not one I would go back and re-watch. As with most of these mid s7 shows it is a big bunch of exposition and it is so serialized that none of these episodes are enjoyable on their own. But the episode gives us more exposition, raises the stakes of what's to come... again. And we aren't even half way through the season!
I do want to add that this line from the speech:
"We will find them, and cut out their hearts one by one, until The First shows itself for what it really is. And I'll kill it myself."
is not a favorite of mine in the speech for a few reasons. One - who are "them" who's hearts you are cutting out? The bringers? Giles told you that you can't fight the first because it's not corporeal. And two, we know that she doesn't actually kill TF herself. Although I think I would've appreciated this line more if this was a foreshadowing of what was to come.
- It's interesting that during the dream with her mom Buffy suddenly feels softer, her demanor is younger like early seasons Buffy. There is a vulnerability in that interaction.
- I LOVE JULIET LANDAU. Bring her back to meeeee!
- Ugh Kennedy... welcome you can go die now.
- Giles "Sorry to barge in. We have a slight apocalypse." - love it.
- Oh dear God.... one of these days these writers will learn that VAMPIRES DON'T BREATHE. You can't waterboard a vamire.... they DON'T BREATHE.
- I don't understand TF's pitch to Spike here? And can't Spike just say OK I'm on your team - be set free and then turn on TF?
- Ok so what's the deal with Buffy when Willow is apologizing? How am I supposed to read that? Is she thinking about her mom and how she said her friends put too much pressure on her? It is a valid concern of Willow's not to go bad. Buffy doesn't feel very sympathetic here. I can't read her emotional reaction. She feels very cold and I can't tell if this is bad acting or purposeful?
- Everyone please note how strong these Turkey Khans are.... lets keep that in mind when we see this later:
- It is so tough to see Buffy so defeated and beaten down (physical and emotionally) but this is such an interesting story. Although we have seen this before with Glory - so it's not necessarily unique. It's always interesting to see Buffy struggle to beat her opponent because it creates some drama and tension (it's boring when we know she is going to win like s4).
One thing that is interesting is how Buffy references the time she faced TF in s3 and how it felt ancient and old and powerful etc. But - I have to say having just watched Amends not too long ago. I don't remember getting that impression that she was all that scared or impressed by TF. She taunts it saying things like "Alright your evil - I get it." She never goes back to Giles to tell him what she felt etc. I guess it's one of those things I have to just believe as is written. And I'm fine with that.
The arrival of the potentials sends shivers down my spine because it already feels so crowded and it's only the first batch of girls. I want more time with my scoobies.
I love Buffy's speech at the end - its one of my favs of the season (if not my favorite). She seems very vulnerable to me and almost scared but yet she is drawing from some inner strength. I don't get the impression she believes all of the words she is saying. I think she is experiencing major self doubt but she believes this is what she needs to convey to her friends. That these are the motivational words they need to hear in order to prepare for the battle. And you gotta love - "I'm standing on the mouth of hell, and it is gonna swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." Especially because it calls back to Season 1 - Welcome to the Hellmouth and Angel's warning to her: "You're standing at the Mouth of Hell. And it's about to open."
Buffy Speech Count: 4 *I previously failed to count her speech to Dawn in Him*
Hey no "From beneath you it devours!" this time right?
As a stand alone episode its not bad. It's not one I would go back and re-watch. As with most of these mid s7 shows it is a big bunch of exposition and it is so serialized that none of these episodes are enjoyable on their own. But the episode gives us more exposition, raises the stakes of what's to come... again. And we aren't even half way through the season!
I do want to add that this line from the speech:
"We will find them, and cut out their hearts one by one, until The First shows itself for what it really is. And I'll kill it myself."
is not a favorite of mine in the speech for a few reasons. One - who are "them" who's hearts you are cutting out? The bringers? Giles told you that you can't fight the first because it's not corporeal. And two, we know that she doesn't actually kill TF herself. Although I think I would've appreciated this line more if this was a foreshadowing of what was to come.
Last edited:
Grace
Destructo-Girl
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 1,792
Bring on the Night
Overall, I agree with @dcai0830. This episode isn't bad. I liked seeing Anya in glasses. She's so cute. I also like having Giles back to do the exposition, since he's so much better at it than the others. 😛
Seeing Dru was fun, but I agree The First doesn't really make sense in this episode. It's trying to convince Spike to go evil by beating and taunting him, when it has the power to turn into Buffy and manipulate him. It just feels like they could have gotten to the "She believes in me" moment in a more logical way. Spike rejected Dru back in Season 5 when he was still soulless, for heaven's sake.
I did think it was interesting how they handled First Dru, especially with the "mistake" of her calling Spike "daddy," when we all know who Dru considers her "bad daddy." I also liked how they gave her vision-style dialogue when she's talking to the Turkey Khan and Spike. "Soon as the moon comes, you'll have your carnage. (looks at Spike) Little girls tear so easily, like pink paper. 'Til then, we'll have our way with this one. Got it coming, he does."
I assume this means that The First is manipulating Annabelle, too, and we just don't see it. The First knows it will convince her to run after dark and then the Turkey Khan will kill her. But the way it's used makes it seem like Dru is seeing the future.
My sense was that Buffy is really feeling her isolation, and she's feeling a little resentful in her self-doubt. Her line "No one expects you to make everything right" is a direct contrast to Buffy herself, who everyone expects to make everything right. But Buffy also knows that it's not really Willow's fault, it's just the way things are, so she insists she can handle it. I can understand Buffy not being sympathetic. She's just been handed a whole bunch of crap to deal with and has basically no one to help her.
Mark Field would say that you are asking exactly the right questions. 😉
Overall, I agree with @dcai0830. This episode isn't bad. I liked seeing Anya in glasses. She's so cute. I also like having Giles back to do the exposition, since he's so much better at it than the others. 😛
Seeing Dru was fun, but I agree The First doesn't really make sense in this episode. It's trying to convince Spike to go evil by beating and taunting him, when it has the power to turn into Buffy and manipulate him. It just feels like they could have gotten to the "She believes in me" moment in a more logical way. Spike rejected Dru back in Season 5 when he was still soulless, for heaven's sake.
I did think it was interesting how they handled First Dru, especially with the "mistake" of her calling Spike "daddy," when we all know who Dru considers her "bad daddy." I also liked how they gave her vision-style dialogue when she's talking to the Turkey Khan and Spike. "Soon as the moon comes, you'll have your carnage. (looks at Spike) Little girls tear so easily, like pink paper. 'Til then, we'll have our way with this one. Got it coming, he does."
I assume this means that The First is manipulating Annabelle, too, and we just don't see it. The First knows it will convince her to run after dark and then the Turkey Khan will kill her. But the way it's used makes it seem like Dru is seeing the future.
My sense was that Buffy is really feeling her isolation, and she's feeling a little resentful in her self-doubt. Her line "No one expects you to make everything right" is a direct contrast to Buffy herself, who everyone expects to make everything right. But Buffy also knows that it's not really Willow's fault, it's just the way things are, so she insists she can handle it. I can understand Buffy not being sympathetic. She's just been handed a whole bunch of crap to deal with and has basically no one to help her.
Mark Field would say that you are asking exactly the right questions. 😉
Grace
Destructo-Girl
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 1,792
Showtime
Showtime feels a bit like it could be called Bring on the Night 2: Bring on the Night Again. 😛 I do really enjoy First Eve. I do not like the telepathic Thunderdome setup. It just feels lazy to me. Mark Field did help me make sense of Buffy's plan for taking on the Turkey Khan, which I will admit was lost on me.
We do hear The First say, "Take 'em all, except for her" before this scene, but I didn't really put the two together.
On rewatch, the use of the Thunderdome quote seems to be important: "Two men enter. One man leaves." Buffy is showing off to the Potentials to prove she has the cojones to be the general.
"See? Dust. Just like the rest of 'em. I don't know what's coming next, but I do know it's gonna be just like this. Hard. Painful. But in the end it's gonna be us. If we all do our parts, believe it, we'll be the ones left standing."
But here the Scoobies wouldn't let the Potentials play a part, even when they wanted to.
It's really squicky to hear Anya offer to sleep with that demon. I hope Giles thought she was bluffing, because ick.
Also, seeing Dream Buffy in white (or maybe it's beige) in this episode is making me think maybe the not-real Buffy in Selfless was also a hallucination and not The First. Has anyone tracked this? Does First Buffy ever wear white? Real Buffy is also wearing white at the end. I thought it was interesting that in Spike's dream, he saved himself.
Also, this is an important question for my story: How much of a nerd is Dawn supposed to be? In Lessons, she's referencing The Twilight Zone, but in this episode she can't follow James Bond references. Unless she's just pretending she can't to be mean to Andrew.
One other thing that just occurred to me. Is the fact that Buffy and Spike both have wounds on their left cheeks at the end of the episode calling back to the red they both had on their cheeks in School Hard?
Showtime feels a bit like it could be called Bring on the Night 2: Bring on the Night Again. 😛 I do really enjoy First Eve. I do not like the telepathic Thunderdome setup. It just feels lazy to me. Mark Field did help me make sense of Buffy's plan for taking on the Turkey Khan, which I will admit was lost on me.
We do hear The First say, "Take 'em all, except for her" before this scene, but I didn't really put the two together.
On rewatch, the use of the Thunderdome quote seems to be important: "Two men enter. One man leaves." Buffy is showing off to the Potentials to prove she has the cojones to be the general.
"See? Dust. Just like the rest of 'em. I don't know what's coming next, but I do know it's gonna be just like this. Hard. Painful. But in the end it's gonna be us. If we all do our parts, believe it, we'll be the ones left standing."
But here the Scoobies wouldn't let the Potentials play a part, even when they wanted to.
It's really squicky to hear Anya offer to sleep with that demon. I hope Giles thought she was bluffing, because ick.
Also, seeing Dream Buffy in white (or maybe it's beige) in this episode is making me think maybe the not-real Buffy in Selfless was also a hallucination and not The First. Has anyone tracked this? Does First Buffy ever wear white? Real Buffy is also wearing white at the end. I thought it was interesting that in Spike's dream, he saved himself.
Also, this is an important question for my story: How much of a nerd is Dawn supposed to be? In Lessons, she's referencing The Twilight Zone, but in this episode she can't follow James Bond references. Unless she's just pretending she can't to be mean to Andrew.
One other thing that just occurred to me. Is the fact that Buffy and Spike both have wounds on their left cheeks at the end of the episode calling back to the red they both had on their cheeks in School Hard?
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
Do we have a lip reader anywhere on this board who can tell us what Anya said to Torg before he opened the portal to Beljoxa's Eye? This is like a badly dubbed kung-fu movie where the spoken words bear no resemblance to the visible lip movements. I normally don't notice this kind of thing but it was so blatant that it took me out of the story.It sounds like it might have been more interesting than the spoken words.
Mylie
Scooby
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2016
- Messages
- 2,098
- Age
- 38
I'll try to catch up this weekend (on the episodes and this thread)...
My reviews are going to be shorter because I have too many episodes to catch up on.
Never Leave Me
The scene with Dawn and Principal Wood made me smile.
Willow is amazing this episode! I loved how supportive she was of Buffy and her scene with Andrew was satisfying.
Xander and Anya made such a good team! I would have taken more of them interrogating Andrew.
Buffy looked exhausted ? It reminded me a bit of the end of s5, but this time I didn't appreciate it much. Or there's something I can't put my finger on. Or maybe it's just the beginning of cold Buffy.
The house... I legit laughed when the bringers destroyed the windows. Poor Xander.
Dawn elbowed a bringer!! She really kicked ass, especially for someone who isn't trained. I think seeing this, it makes sense thinking that she might be a potential later on.
I love that the first thing Buffy thinks about when Xander gets upstairs is to know that Dawn is safe.
I love that Buffy was the one to discover what they're up against because she was the one who fought the bringers in s3. In a season that relies a lot on exposition, that bit felt pretty organic and was a lot more satisfying than if they had discovered it through someone from the council telling them or research.
The explosion was something! Though I do wonder who the first manipulated into doing that, or maybe it was the bringers but it doesn't really seem like their style.
Overall, it's an enjoyable episode that really advances the plot forward and it has some nice moments.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
Bring On the Night
Xander referenced the mummy hand from Life Serial!!
Willow was so scared of how the magic overpowered her... Buffy comforting her was heartwarming.
Wait... they just mentioned Faith... so they did realize that she was in danger. They just didn't bother doing anything about it... great!
I didn't remember that scene with Buffy and Giles walking, it's lovely to hear them say they miss each other.
It's kind of sad seeing Buffy so pressured and worried about protecting everyone and calling the right shots. And Giles is only adding more pressure. And then right after we see her find Annabelle's body. I've been paying a lot of attention to her reaction and you can tell she feels all the weight of that death. We rarely see Buffy run away from a villain, hurt and scared. It reminds me of her running away from Kralik in Helpless.
I know Buffy has way too many speeches in s7 but this one really works for me. It's something to see her get back her and find the strength to motivate and reassure everyone else. She really is a leader at the core.
Overall, this is an odd one for me. I find most of the episode boring (I actually fell asleep at one point) but the ending is very strong so I finish the episode with a false sense of satisfaction. I think I appreciate the character stuff (mostly for Buffy) but the plot is not engaging or memorable.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Bring On the Night
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
My reviews are going to be shorter because I have too many episodes to catch up on.
Never Leave Me
The scene with Dawn and Principal Wood made me smile.
Willow is amazing this episode! I loved how supportive she was of Buffy and her scene with Andrew was satisfying.
Xander and Anya made such a good team! I would have taken more of them interrogating Andrew.
Buffy looked exhausted ? It reminded me a bit of the end of s5, but this time I didn't appreciate it much. Or there's something I can't put my finger on. Or maybe it's just the beginning of cold Buffy.
The house... I legit laughed when the bringers destroyed the windows. Poor Xander.
Dawn elbowed a bringer!! She really kicked ass, especially for someone who isn't trained. I think seeing this, it makes sense thinking that she might be a potential later on.
I love that the first thing Buffy thinks about when Xander gets upstairs is to know that Dawn is safe.
I love that Buffy was the one to discover what they're up against because she was the one who fought the bringers in s3. In a season that relies a lot on exposition, that bit felt pretty organic and was a lot more satisfying than if they had discovered it through someone from the council telling them or research.
The explosion was something! Though I do wonder who the first manipulated into doing that, or maybe it was the bringers but it doesn't really seem like their style.
Overall, it's an enjoyable episode that really advances the plot forward and it has some nice moments.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
Bring On the Night
Xander referenced the mummy hand from Life Serial!!
Willow was so scared of how the magic overpowered her... Buffy comforting her was heartwarming.
Wait... they just mentioned Faith... so they did realize that she was in danger. They just didn't bother doing anything about it... great!
I didn't remember that scene with Buffy and Giles walking, it's lovely to hear them say they miss each other.
It's kind of sad seeing Buffy so pressured and worried about protecting everyone and calling the right shots. And Giles is only adding more pressure. And then right after we see her find Annabelle's body. I've been paying a lot of attention to her reaction and you can tell she feels all the weight of that death. We rarely see Buffy run away from a villain, hurt and scared. It reminds me of her running away from Kralik in Helpless.
I know Buffy has way too many speeches in s7 but this one really works for me. It's something to see her get back her and find the strength to motivate and reassure everyone else. She really is a leader at the core.
Overall, this is an odd one for me. I find most of the episode boring (I actually fell asleep at one point) but the ending is very strong so I finish the episode with a false sense of satisfaction. I think I appreciate the character stuff (mostly for Buffy) but the plot is not engaging or memorable.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Bring On the Night
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
Mylie
Scooby
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2016
- Messages
- 2,098
- Age
- 38
I watched this last night but forgot to post my thoughts.
Showtime
I noticed that in Spike's dream, Buffy wears light tones and TF Buffy right after wears black, just like in Selfless.
I'm enjoying the potentials so far. I sympathize with how frightening it must be to just discover you're a potential slayer, that something is after you and wants to kill you so you have to give up your home and move someplace with strangers so someone who doesn't really have a place can protect you.
The twist with Eve was really well done, but I’m not a fan of the actress’s acting.
Dawn's "because girls are cooler" always makes me smile. I really wish she was a potential!
Anya assuming responsibility for what's happening surprised me and made me kind of proud. She's grown a lot this season.
I don't get how Willow was able to hear Buffy in her mind? It's not like Buffy has ever done that before, she's not a witch. It would have made more sense had Willow been the one starting the conversation.
Buffy's speech : "I don't know what's coming next but I do know it's going to be hard, painful", it reminds me of "strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday". Buffy really is all about never giving up.
Overall, a decent episode. I appreciate how threatening the ubervamp was but knowing how easy it is to kill them off later on, it loses a bit of weight on rewatch.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Showtime
Bring On the Night
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
Showtime
I noticed that in Spike's dream, Buffy wears light tones and TF Buffy right after wears black, just like in Selfless.
I'm enjoying the potentials so far. I sympathize with how frightening it must be to just discover you're a potential slayer, that something is after you and wants to kill you so you have to give up your home and move someplace with strangers so someone who doesn't really have a place can protect you.
The twist with Eve was really well done, but I’m not a fan of the actress’s acting.
Dawn's "because girls are cooler" always makes me smile. I really wish she was a potential!
Anya assuming responsibility for what's happening surprised me and made me kind of proud. She's grown a lot this season.
I don't get how Willow was able to hear Buffy in her mind? It's not like Buffy has ever done that before, she's not a witch. It would have made more sense had Willow been the one starting the conversation.
Buffy's speech : "I don't know what's coming next but I do know it's going to be hard, painful", it reminds me of "strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday". Buffy really is all about never giving up.
Overall, a decent episode. I appreciate how threatening the ubervamp was but knowing how easy it is to kill them off later on, it loses a bit of weight on rewatch.
My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Showtime
Bring On the Night
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
Showtime:
When's Faith getting here?
- Willow is about as annoyed with Kennedy as I am.
- "It's complicated Chloe." Indeed it is... maybe one day I'll understand it. But it will not be this day.
- It's not that I dislike the potentials (although sometimes I do - especially Kennedy) but its that they take away the attention from the main cast who I care about.
- It's funny Giles is like: I have no idea how to find information about what is happening, I'm out of ideas. Hmm if only there was another ex-watcher and another team 2 hours away that they could potentially hit up for information - but no let's not talk about that!
- The eye is so gross! But I like the Giles/Anya team up. I'm so team Ganya.
- The reveal that this is all because they brought Buffy back is good, from a story standpoint but they don't really explain it. I kinda wish they would. How has this thrown things off so much? She has died before, and Kendra/Faith was called and the Slayer line runs through her. So what does it matter if Buffy lives or dies? She may be the best/strongest etc Slayer but she is superfluous in the slayer line right now isn't she?
- Thunder dome: On the one hand I love seeing Buffy being a badass, her little line about "I'm the thing monsters have nightmares about" is a great line! And when she defeats the Turkey Khan - it's so great! And ya! Clapping etc.
- But the whole thing feels incredibly overdone to me now - maybe because it works best the first few watches and now I know what is to come it looks too much like a show. How did she know she would defeat the Turkey Khan when she didn't know how to destroy it? When did the telepathic talking to each other thing start to happen - is this the first time we see it?
- If I ignore the entire back story and all of the things that lead us to this moment when Buffy rescues Spike at the end of this episode, I can allow myself to really like this moment between Spike and Buffy. This is about as tender a moment as Buffy has in her in season 7. She gives Spike a genuinely caring look when she rescues him. It's the first time I actually see how she cares about him. In a vacuum, its a sweet moment.
- I like seeing TF pissed off when she defeats the TK.
When's Faith getting here?
Yes, this, this has always pissed me off because it makes no sense. Buffy is not the active Slayer, therefore her death and resurrection should have no effect on a cosmic level. This was a pure ass-pull on the writers' part. Utter crap.
Mrs Gordo
It certainly feels like it!
I forgot this when I did my review - LOL. I'm glad for this explanation as well except that it feels like the TK isn't holding back when it is fighting Buffy. I wonder how much of a brain the thing has - if she kept fighting it I feel like it would've killed her against TF's wishes.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
The way its (badly) explained is that basically now Buffy is The Slayer AND Faith is The Slayer; resurrecting Buffy they way they did (big magicks) has put Buffy 'back into the line of slayers'.
So the upshot is that if she dies then another slayer is called AND another slayer is called if Faith dies; so its no longer 'one girl in all the world', its always gonna be two girls for ever and ever.
Apparently that breaks the 'cosmic rules' and means The First can break them right back and go to war with the forces of good.
Well, there has to be the assassination attempt first because it turns out prison isn't more secure than The Watcher's Council.
*shakes head* S7 Scoobies are just idiotic.