Charisma Opens Up About Whedon

[The Bronze]

@Myheadsgonenumb I think the nature of this kind of work is significantly different from run of the mill jobs. Charisma was 2nd/3rd billing on a show which is picked up annually. There's every chance that having to rush a rewrite could effect quality, ratings and liklihood of securing another season. You can't have a contingency for it.

That's why I say delaying revealing this information to those responsible for production is bad.

I do agree with your general points but I don't think it can be applied wholesale to every situation.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

But Michelle really need to clarify her comments because with what she said a lot of people believed that she was sexually abused. If that’s not the case she really need to précise the nature of the abuse she accused Joss Whedon. It’s one thing to say that he had inappropriate behavior and it’s another thing to say that he is a pedophile which a lot of people are thinking from her comment

Exactly. Accusing someone of being a dickhead is one thing, accusing someone of being a paedophile (which is how people are interpreting her comments) is a whole different level.

If people are reading more into what was said than was actually said then that is on them. Michelle does not owe it to them or to Joss to clarify that they are over reading or to make explicit what she went through.
She did not say 'pedophile' - anyone saying that needs to dial it back unless/until someone actually comes forward with an accusation.

Demanding that people spill all the gory details because strangers on the internet are getting carried away with the little information they have been given is part of why people don't speak up in the first place. People's reactions to what Michelle said are not Michelle's responsibility. She has said what she is comfortable in saying, maybe in time she will decide to say more - maybe she won't. That's her business. But she owes nobody anything.

Except the problem is social media is the court of public opinion, facts don't matter. Factually, MT has not accused Whedon of being a paedophile, unfortunately that is the conclusion people are jumping to as the result of her vague comments. That is serious and whether MT intended it or not, that is what is happening. She needs to clarify her comments because potentially an innocent man could be physically attacked over what her comments insinuate. He could be killed, that is the potential consequences of her comments. All it takes is one nutjob who believes they're seeking justice.

 

[Antho]

If people are reading more into what was said than was actually said then that is on them. Michelle does not owe it to them or to Joss to clarify that they are over reading or to make explicit what she went through.
She did not say 'pedophile' - anyone saying that needs to dial it back unless/until someone actually comes forward with an accusation.

Demanding that people spill all the gory details because strangers on the internet are getting carried away with the little information they have been given is part of why people don't speak up in the first place. People's reactions to what Michelle said are not Michelle's responsibility. She has said what she is comfortable in saying, maybe in time she will decide to say more - maybe she won't. That's her business. But she owes nobody anything.

I don’t think Michelle is stupid, she perfectly knew what would be the reaction and the thoughts of people to a message like that which isn’t really explicit. If she didn’t want to go into the details you are right that’s her choice but still... just one phrase like « I’m not talking about sexual abuse » and that’s it. No more assumptions on that and she doesn’t say too much.

 

[gwenogjones]

You can't have a contingency for it.

Of course you can! They can approach every season with a "this is what we want it to look like ... however, in the event of x getting pregnant we'll switch it up this way. In the event of y getting pregnant we'll switch it up this way. If z gets pregnant we'll just stick her in a big sweater and ask the audience to pretend they don't notice.'

They don't have to hammer out every detail but it should still be in the back of their mind that it could feasibly happen. That's the point of a contingency - you plan it in advance!

Life happens. Forget pregnancies. What would they have done if Alexis Denisof had been in a car crash and unable to work for six months? or if J August Richard's mother got sick and he had to act as her carer and needed his hours cutting? The show would have had to have dealt. Workplaces have to deal with real life emergencies and people going off sick all the time and they suck it up and get on with it.

The fact that this is treated any different, that people pretend it is different or more of a problem when the spanner in the works is a woman getting pregnant is just ... well, I'm a bit bored of saying it now but it starts with an M and ends in isogyny.

 

[The Bronze]

The fact that this is treated any different, that people pretend it is different or more of a problem when the spanner in the works is a woman getting pregnant is just ... well, I'm a bit bored of saying it now but it starts with an M and ends in isogyny.

That's the thing, it's not treated differently. If you can't fulfil your role or parts of your role for reasons outside of your control then you let the appropriate people know as soon as possible so they can adjust. Life isn't the issue, causing more disruption than necessary through delay is.

 

[burrunjor]

I always thought Joss' treatment of Charisma was shameful. Regardless of all the gory details, to dump an actress who had played such a big role in your franchises success, and who'd even just worked with you for 7 years at that point in such a callous way was always really shitty.

I'm glad that Charisma doesn't have to be diplomatic about it. All this I'd work with Joss again crap, that was being too fair to him after he mistreated her. He also never expressed any regret over how he mistreated her. He should have been hoping she was willing to be in the same room as him.

However I was shocked the way virtually his entire cast came out against him so quickly. Even those who never worked with Charisma like Amber have supported her. Clearly they've all bit their tongue about what a dick Joss was for a while, but as soon as the first person came forward, the flood gates opened.

People need to not jump to conclusions of course about the severity of what Joss was doing, but I think it's safe to say that we all now know the type of man Joss is.

Really though we've known that he was a bit of a prick for a while, so I doubt it will change how we view the show. (Unless of course the worst is confirmed..)

 

[burrunjor]

Of course you can! They can approach every season with a "this is what we want it to look like ... however, in the event of x getting pregnant we'll switch it up this way. In the event of y getting pregnant we'll switch it up this way. If z gets pregnant we'll just stick her in a big sweater and ask the audience to pretend they don't notice.'

They don't have to hammer out every detail but it should still be in the back of their mind that it could feasibly happen. That's the point of a contingency - you plan it in advance!

Life happens. Forget pregnancies. What would they have done if Alexis Denisof had been in a car crash and unable to work for six months? or if J August Richard's mother got sick and he had to act as her carer and needed his hours cutting? The show would have had to have dealt. Workplaces have to deal with real life emergencies and people going off sick all the time and they suck it up and get on with it.

The fact that this is treated any different, that people pretend it is different or more of a problem when the spanner in the works is a woman getting pregnant is just ... well, I'm a bit bored of saying it now but it starts with an M and ends in isogyny.

I agree. Joss could have easily worked around her pregnancy in some way.

Have her get lost in a Demon dimension, or have her get wounded by a Vampire so she has to spend most of the time in the library, or maybe just not dress her in revealing outfits for a while.

Or if you have to write her out, because you have to bring Spike in, do it in a respectful way. Let her know ahead of the season, give her a good send off and then no hard feelings.

Elaine from Seinfeld covered up about 3 pregnancies, and Married with Children covered up one of Katey Sagal's easily.

 

[The Bronze]

People need to not jump to conclusions of course about the severity of what Joss was doing, but I think it's safe to say that we all now know the type of man Joss is.

Absolutely this. Joss the asshole on set and in a general sense is very much confirmed. Speculating on anything beyond thay isn't helpful to anyone.

Really though we've known that he was a bit of a prick for a while, so I doubt it will change how we view the show. (Unless of course the worst is confirmed..)

My view on the show won't change whatever comes out. It stands on its own.

 

[gwenogjones]

That's the thing, it's not treated differently. If you can't fulfil your role or parts of your role for reasons outside of your control then you let the appropriate people know as soon as possible so they can adjust. Life isn't the issue, causing more disruption than necessary through delay is.

Which she did ... and she still got punished for being pregnant.

However you seem to be arguing that she should have told them as soon as she knew herself and was planning to keep it, despite the fact that could have been as early as a couple of weeks and she had no way of knowing if this pregnancy would be successful.
In fact, a woman shouldn't have to tell her employer about her pregnancy until the point where she cannot do her job. That is not at two weeks pregnant. It's not even two months pregnant. For most women it's closer to full term. As an actress, or any woman in a physically demanding role, that may be earlier - when she is beginning to show, or when her movement is compromised - but that still isn't as early as when she first found out.
There is no other medical condition that you have to disclose to an employer before it prevents you from doing your job. Pregnancy is no different.

Anyone bashing the drum of Charisma didn't tell them in time - apart from being factually inaccurate - is supporting the appalling treatment of a woman in an industry that is notorious for treating women appallingly.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

give her a good send off and then no hard feelings.

And that brings up the other thing. She only signed on to return for You're Welcome because Joss promised he would not kill the character off. Then once she agreed and signed the contract to appear, he gave her the script and killed her off. She stated at the time that she was okay with it because it was a good death, but you wonder how much of that was just lip service.

 

[burrunjor]

Absolutely this. Joss the asshole on set and in a general sense is very much confirmed. Speculating on anything beyond thay isn't helpful to anyone.

My view on the show won't change whatever comes out. It stands on its own.

Indeed separating the art from the artist is always important. Really though Joss' image as a great guy was gone long ago. Anyone who associates with Anita Sarkeesian is dodgy.

This post was cringy as **** in 2015, now it's cringy as **** and hilarious.

 

[The Bronze]

@Myheadsgonenumb

Last one from me on this. I don't know the timings. Delaying telling when you know this will cause disruption is a bad thing to do in my opinion. From your previous example. If Alexis signs on for a Seaosn in January, gets hit by a car in February and tells them about it on the first day of filming in May when he's unable to do his job, that's a bad thigh to do. Not the getting hit part, the delay in sharing important information.

 

[burrunjor]

As a man I may have womb envy according to Joss, but that's nothing compared to the envy any woman who has worked with Joss has of a woman who has never met him.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I disagree with this. As a small business owner if my state had mandatory maternity leave laws it would severely (at best) cripple the business. Not only would we have to pay for a 12 week maternity leave would also have to pay for their replacement. The salary for the position would double. It would kill our bottom line and greatly affect the day-to-day operations and finding worthy candidates that are only willing to work 12 weeks is next to impossible.

Why is it only in America a woman's right to be pregnant (and the health of family in general) gets such short shrift? Only America of all developed countries has such abysmal protection for maternity (and even paternity) rights. If we had sane protections and provisions, it would be a lot easier on busnesses. Our policies are both anti family and anti small business and horrid for women.

 

[gwenogjones]

@The Bronze - well I was thinking more that he got hit by a car and was then just in hospital straight away due to injuries (I figured that was obvious, but clearly not). If Alexis filmed episode 3 and was then in an accident prior to starting shooting episode 4 the show would have had to deal. It would have needed an emergency change of plan to explain why Wes was suddenly not in the show from one episode to the next. You say they can't have contingencies ... all employers should have contingencies for everything they can think of! That's part of being a boss. And whereas horrific car crashes are statistically unlikely, pregnancies are pretty much inevitable.

You say you don't know the timings, but considering that Charisma has repeatedly spoken about this (and been backed up by others) what you mean is you're not taking her word on the timings.
You are also saying that a pregnant woman should not be free to share her condition at her own pace and when she is comfortable but rather to do so at the convenience of her employer. That her right to knowledge about her own body is subordinate to the demands her boss might make of her. That is an anti-woman position to take.

The world of work needs to accept that pregnancy is a reality. Not only does society need women to be economically active but women have a right to be so, and a need to be so - they may still get pregnant though, no matter how committed to a career they are. As both economic activity and pregnancies are a necessity (humanity is a giant pyramid scheme, we need the next generation of tax payers to pay for the retirement of the current generation of tax payers) then the world of work needs to adapt how it deals with pregnant women. Pregnant women do not need to adapt so they fit into this male centred man at the office, woman at home 1950s model of work that employers are still operating under.

These aren't small changes. These are big, structural changes. They won't happen quickly - but they need to happen and 'this is just the reality' is no defence for the status quo when the status quo is letting women down so badly.

Any insistence that she should have told earlier and that not revealing her condition to Joss' timetable is 'bad' is propping up this outdated model and treating women as an after thought in the world of work. It is regressive and does nothing to help achieve the better reality we could all have if people just stopped defending the status quo. It's just more defending the status quo - under the guise of 'realism'.
And - as Charisma has repeatedly said she did tell in time, it is also factually inaccurate. Being on the fence about the timings is tantamount to calling her (and Tim Minear) a liar.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

If we had sane protections and provisions, it would be a lot easier on busnesses.

Medium and big businesses do have protections and provisions. But the fact that 99% of all businesses in the US are small businesses most of them cannot afford to have provisions in place. The government should not (unless they want to pay for leave) be allowed to dictate how a small business runs. If you are concerned about getting a paid 12 week maternity or paternity leave, then don't accept a position that doesn't offer it.

I've had people not accept a job because we don't offer enough holiday time, or don't offer overtime. I don't see where maternity or paternity leave should be any different.

 

[gwenogjones]

The government should not (unless they want to pay for leave) be allowed to dictate how a small business runs.

In Europe, employers pay statutory maternity leave and can reclaim that back from the government. The idea of the government paying maternity leave is not a crazy, beyond the realm of possibility idea. It is reality in many other western countries. American citizens could be fighting to have what their foreign cousins have (and take for granted), instead of accepting less rights and poorer working conditions because they put profit before people.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The idea of the government paying maternity leave is not a crazy

No it's not. And some governments do. As I said before, I live in a state where it's not mandatory, hence my government doesn't pay. California, for example, makes it mandatory so they pay. The majority of the people vote against it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

It is good to see that Amber Benson has chimed in about what was done to her. She was always made to look frumpy and fat (even though she is not) and the only episode where she is allowed to look good is "Restless" although the episode where Willow was writing a Greek poem on her back is just as good. I don't get it - the fans liked her but Joss didn't so she was relegated to the scrap heap. It was obvious in "Once More with Feeling" that when she and Anya were dancing behind Buffy at the command of Sweet, Amber was made to look like a wide-body in comparison to Anya even though, from front to back, she had a small waist, just a wide rib cage.

Joss was damaging his own art by his tantrums about what actors should do and look like. Good writer? Yes. Good showrunner? No. There is no artistic reason Joss had for the decisions he made.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

@The Bronze - well I was thinking more that he got hit by a car and was then just in hospital straight away due to injuries (I figured that was obvious, but clearly not). If Alexis filmed episode 3 and was then in an accident prior to starting shooting episode 4 the show would have had to deal. It would have needed an emergency change of plan to explain why Wes was suddenly not in the show from one episode to the next. You say they can't have contingencies ... all employers should have contingencies for everything they can think of! That's part of being a boss. And whereas horrific car crashes are statistically unlikely, pregnancies are pretty much inevitable.

You say you don't know the timings, but considering that Charisma has repeatedly spoken about this (and been backed up by others) what you mean is you're not taking her word on the timings.
You are also saying that a pregnant woman should not be free to share her condition at her own pace and when she is comfortable but rather to do so at the convenience of her employer. That her right to knowledge about her own body is subordinate to the demands her boss might make of her. That is an anti-woman position to take.

The world of work needs to accept that pregnancy is a reality. Not only does society need women to be economically active but women have a right to be so, and a need to be so - they may still get pregnant though, no matter how committed to a career they are. As both economic activity and pregnancies are a necessity (humanity is a giant pyramid scheme, we need the next generation of tax payers to pay for the retirement of the current generation of tax payers) then the world of work needs to adapt how it deals with pregnant women. Pregnant women do not need to adapt so they fit into this male centred man at the office, woman at home 1950s model of work that employers are still operating under.

These aren't small changes. These are big, structural changes. They won't happen quickly - but they need to happen and 'this is just the reality' is no defence for the status quo when the status quo is letting women down so badly.

Any insistence that she should have told earlier and that not revealing her condition to Joss' timetable is 'bad' is propping up this outdated model and treating women as an after thought in the world of work. It is regressive and does nothing to help achieve the better reality we could all have if people just stopped defending the status quo. It's just more defending the status quo - under the guise of 'realism'.
And - as Charisma has repeatedly said she did tell in time, it is also factually inaccurate. Being on the fence about the timings is tantamount to calling her (and Tim Minear) a liar.

Funny enough woman at home, man at work is a brief creation of the post WWII era. Other than then, women and men have always worked. Poor people all worked, farmed or did labor & basic commerce or they did not survive. Women worked in "men's jobs" during the war b/c there were few men left in industry. Most men were in the military. Other than wealthy women, everyone always has worked. farming has always been a family affair. Only the US acts as though Ossie and Harriet is a thing. Work has changed and every developed country adjusted because family is necessary and caring for family actually protects the workforce and society.