Dark Willow and Redeemability

[quillandfang]

So for context, my parents are watching Buffy for the first time and they just finished season 6. They called me yesterday to discuss, and my dad (who has hated Willow since season 4) had an opinion that I don't think I've personally heard--- that Willow's actions in the final three episodes of the season make her an "irredeemable" person. Like there are definitely people I've met who dislike Willow and have understandable explanations as to why, but it usually centers more around her being a bad friend/partner than her being a morally irredeemable person.

Regarding the end of season 6, I was under the impression that the reason why she was so cruel in episode 21 and tried to hurt her friends was due to the depth of her magical corruption, and that the magic was amplifying her rage to the point where she wasn't fully thinking about what she was saying or doing. Additionally, her trying to destroy the world came off as a result of her feeling everyone's pain due to Giles's spell, not destroying the world specifically because she lost Tara. In fact, I blamed Willow more for her behavior near the beginning of the season and felt like that was her rock bottom as opposed to the finale. However, I feel like fantastical elements can make fictional moral judgments kind of difficult.

What do you read into this, whether you like Willow or not? Are Willow's actions in season 6 irredeemable, and does that make her irredeemable? Should there have been more time spent on redeeming Willow in season 7?

To the last point, I personally think yes. I think she is redeemable after season 6, but that the narrative in season 7 didn't spend enough time actively working through the aftermath of her objectively evil actions. Because regardless of intention, she did hurt her friends and try to destroy the world. I might be reading too much into this haha.

 

[Nix]

I think if you can class Angel as redeemable and Spike & Faith then why not Willow? They all did unspeakable things due to darkness inside them forced onto them or by situations. Willow was in unspeakable pain and let the darkness swallow her whole. She drowned in the dark magic and needed saving as at the core I don't believe her to be an "Evil" person and it is the supernatural we are talking about.

 

[quillandfang]

I think if you can class Angel as redeemable and Spike & Faith then why not Willow? They all did unspeakable things due to darkness inside them forced onto them or by situations. Willow was in unspeakable pain and let the darkness swallow her whole. She drowned in the dark magic and needed saving as at the core I don't believe her to be an "Evil" person and it is the supernatural we are talking about.

Exactly! I was thinking the same thing regarding Angel and Faith, and since it's season 6, certainly Spike. I think a lot of it is about intention, like you said she's not an "evil" person, and many of her "evil" actions resulted from deep emotion for others.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:56 PM

HowiMetdaSlayer Hates Willow?! 😦We would not get along! 😊

Definitely not XD I think from our discussions about Buffy that he struggles to see Willow as a complex character, and takes most of her actions at surface level instead of taking into account the emotion and reasoning behind them. However, he is willing to give more humorous characters (like Spike, Anya, or Xander) benefit of the doubt when they do something bad. Granted if you are taking it at surface level none of them actively tried to destroy the world, but still.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I won't go so far to say she's irredeemable... but she did the stuff she did with a soul. And I (like your dad) pretty much lost ALL respect for her moral agency when she did 'I'm a god', and i'm gonna mess up all my friends and possibly put all of reality in peril with a word! AKA 'my will be done' spell. How anyone with a genius IQ could think that spell was reasonable to CONSIDER casting is beyond me. Most normal people would think it was a stupid idea.

And her answer wasn't "i have permanently lost the right to use magic for being that stupid, selfish, and hellgod-level dangerous" it was 'i must make cookies.

Seriously?

 

[NotASlayer]

I won't go so far to say she's irredeemable... but she did the stuff she did with a soul.

Remember, both Liam and William chose to become monsters - when they had a soul. Both were privileged individuals who, when given the chance to become a monster, said "Yes."

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I think if you can class Angel as redeemable and Spike & Faith then why not Willow? They all did unspeakable things due to darkness inside them forced onto them or by situations. Willow was in unspeakable pain and let the darkness swallow her whole. She drowned in the dark magic and needed saving as at the core I don't believe her to be an "Evil" person and it is the supernatural we are talking about.

Yeah, Spike and Angel had no souls. They admitted they were bad. They both worked hard at changing their life choices.

Angel
Even though it was a burden, Angel made the best of the fact the soul was forced on him and chose to do good. He did not have to. There's ways around having a soul, and frankly, lots of humans live evil lives even with a soul. He chose good. Also, we know he could have found a way around it.

Spike
Even though he knew it was not going to feel good (and saw what it did to Angel) Spike went out and got his soul... even though he'd done lots of good and helped save the world while still fully demon, he knew that wasn't enough.


Both Angel and Spike showed real penitence. no, Spike did not show it the way Angel did, but he also CHOSE the soul, so i think in a way he had an easier time KNOWING it was going to suck to some degree.


Faith
Faith was a horrible mess who had no mother, no watcher (both dead) had no support from the Sunnydalers and probably no one to teach her how to handle life OR make moral decisions, but she became truly penitent. Before she went to prison, she wanted to die b/c she realized she was bad. She didn't want to take anyone with her. She STAYED in prison, even though she did not have to... Nothing made her stay. She saw the error of her life choices and chose to accept responsibility. Faith CHANGED. Faith learned.

Willow:
Nowhere in the narrative do we ever see Willow truly penitent. She was sorry for herself. Sorry for being caught. Ashamed for how her friends viewed her. Desired to make them not angry... but as soon as she was in a situation where life didn't go according to plan, she started mind raping her friends... even after being caught.

Plenty of people lose the love of their lives and they don't go out and murder the people who were responsible... and yeah, I'm speaking from personal experience. It sucks to lose someone you can't live without. It never stops sucking. It doesn't give you the right to give into all your urges... and anyone who tells you that having your loved one murdered or killed by someone (even accidentally) doesn't put you in a rage at that person is lying. Adulthood, morality and being HUMAN is a choice. One that Willow repeatedly does NOT make.

The rules DO apply to you, Willow. No matter how powerful you are.

She wanted to enslave Oz... to force him to stay. This was NOT a moral or reasonable choice. Did he run in fear over facing his own demon? yes. Was it fun? no. Does that give her any right to force him to come back... or try? NEVER.

What actually happened with her magics was PLANET and reality threatening. in a WORD she could have ended the world... just as easily as she brought Amy back, then sent her back to rat-ness WITHOUT EVEN NOTICING!

Willow was the stupidest smart person ever. She honestly believed her way was the right one AND that her desire trumped everyone's will. That is EVIL. You know who else thinks and ACTS that way? Despots. dictators. megalomaniac cult leaders. mass murderers. Children who pull the wings off insects because they can.

She never learned the basic ideas of responsibility or accountability. She became more powerful over time and loved it enough to threaten Giles when he confronted her. MAYBE after she did the white magic slayer activation, that purified her... but at no time before that do i see her as someone who could be presumed good, honourable or decent... because she was too busy feeling sorry for herself to take responsibility for herself. The Gnarl only happened b/c of her self-centered fear. Same is true with Amy's spell on her. For it to turn her into Warren... she had to embrace his warped world view.

Funny thing? She was wilful from the first season. Hacking is not lawful. She showed herself to be wilful, self-centered, self-pitying and vindictive. Did some of those she was vindictive to deserve consequences? Probably. But the fact that her first response was fundamentally dishonest and vindictive? That's telling. Her 'relationship' with 'Malcolm' showed some of the same attitude... but THAT i will give her a partial pass for because he was a pass master at manipulation.

Nope, not my favourite person.

Remember, both Liam and William chose to become monsters - when they had a soul. Both were privileged individuals who, when given the chance to become a monster, said "Yes."

Well, I don't think that William chose, he was thralled. And although I think Liam was an awful human, i don't think he knew what he was getting into. Darla knew. Her siring was clearly her choice to embrace evil. Even after being sired, we see that Spike wanted to do 'good' by saving his mum. No, Angelus had no good in him. But Angel... chose to try to be good.

Spike helped save the world without soul or chip. Not remotely 'good' but he actually looked at the consequence of the world ending and said 'that's a dumb idea'. Willow did NOT.

 

[NotASlayer]

Seasons 6 and 7 make it very clear, thanks to the character assassination performed on Giles, that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles' fault.

Giles personally knew the mistakes you could make with magic use, and, according to season 6 and 7 (which is really down to the terrible writing of both seasons), he knew people who could help train Willow properly. And he didn't bother. He could have taken Willow to the coven much, much earlier, he could have done something when he knew she was spiralling in S6, but he just didn't care.

The Giles of the last two seasons is impossible to match up with the Giles of the first five. And he's far from the only person that applies to.

Well, I don't think that William chose, he was thralled. And although I think Liam was an awful human, i don't think he knew what he was getting into.

He knew; he was just an entitled two percenter who couldn't handle rejection at the hands of a woman, a social inferior.

Even after being sired, we see that Spike wanted to do 'good' by saving his mum.

Though he didn't ask her what she wanted. If he really cared, he would have asked what she wanted. But he didn't.

Spike helped save the world without soul or chip. Not remotely 'good' but he actually looked at the consequence of the world ending and said 'that's a dumb idea'.

After all, he loves all those Happy Meals on legs. And booze, cigarettes, curries and soaps. Really, soaps? 😀

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Seasons 6 and 7 make it very clear, thanks to the character assassination performed on Giles, that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles' fault.

Giles personally knew the mistakes you could make with magic use, and, according to season 6 and 7 (which is really down to the terrible writing of both seasons), he knew people who could help train Willow properly. And he didn't bother. He could have taken Willow to the coven much, much earlier, he could have done something when he knew she was spiralling in S6, but he just didn't care.

The Giles of the last two seasons is impossible to match up with the Giles of the first five. And he's far from the only person that applies to.



He knew; he was just an entitled two percenter who couldn't handle rejection at the hands of a woman, a social inferior.



Though he didn't ask her what she wanted. If he really cared, he would have asked what she wanted. But he didn't.



After all, he loves all those Happy Meals on legs. And booze, cigarettes, curries and soaps. Really, soaps? 😀

did not say they were perfect, just redeemable. Yes, Giles made horrible mistakes and I have issues with his choices too... Sadly, ASH needed to make the choices he made for his family, so Giles vanished from the landscape kind of abruptly and the writers did not handle his leaving in a reasonable way. Given that ASH is now gone, I'm glad he got to spend time with his family.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone could have made Willow make different choices. She was making world threatening choices back in season 4. She was ARROGANT. Arrogance (pride) is one of the deadly sins for a reason.

 

[quillandfang]

And I (like your dad) pretty much lost ALL respect for her moral agency when she did 'I'm a god', and i'm gonna mess up all my friends and possibly put all of reality in peril with a word! AKA 'my will be done' spell. How anyone with a genius IQ could think that spell was reasonable to CONSIDER casting is beyond me. Most normal people would think it was a stupid idea.

And her answer wasn't "i have permanently lost the right to use magic for being that stupid, selfish, and hellgod-level dangerous" it was 'i must make cookies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the consequences of the "will be done" spell unintentional? She meant to cast a spell to get rid of her pain which, while unhealthy, isn't necessarily harming anyone else. It was definitely stupid that she couldn't see how it could backfire, but I don't necessarily think she did it thinking she was a god. However, I absolutely do agree that she didn't do enough to make up for this. She took away the agency of others, albeit unintentionally, and that should have been addressed further than a comedic scene of her apologizing and making cookies.

Nowhere in the narrative do we ever see Willow truly penitent. She was sorry for herself. Sorry for being caught. Ashamed for how her friends viewed her. Desired to make them not angry... but as soon as she was in a situation where life didn't go according to plan, she started mind raping her friends... even after being caught.

See this is a reason why I made this post, and also why I said that I think that what she did at the beginning of season 6 was worse than the end. She isn't irredeemable in my opinion, but she wasn't redeemed by the narrative at all. While she was punished for the mind-wiping by Tara leaving her and by Buffy distrusting her for a few episodes, Tara came back to her and Buffy stayed friends with her without meaningfully addressing the problem. Her moments of penitence were few and far between, and after season 6 it seems like the audience was just expected to forgive her for everything from the previous seasons. There were only a few episodes addressing any of this, which is a shame.

I didn't quote this part, but you also brought up Spike's redemption, which is a really good point. Though not exactly the same, Spike's crimes were along a similar vein--- participating in apocalyptic plots, consent violations, murder... But the narrative spend all of season 7 trying to redeem him. There's many scenes illustrating his penitence. Disregarding the comics, he doesn't "get Buffy back" after what he did and only slowly earns her trust again. Why couldn't the writers have done the same with Willow?

And I know this isn't the topic of this thread, but especially with the relationship aspect. She almost cursed Oz, she casted spells on Tara, and yet season 7 thought it was a great idea to put her in another relationship instead of addressing the issues that plagued her last two relationships. Which were highly related to her fatal flaw of selfishness.

She never learned the basic ideas of responsibility or accountability. She became more powerful over time and loved it enough to threaten Giles when he confronted her. MAYBE after she did the white magic slayer activation, that purified her... but at no time before that do i see her as someone who could be presumed good, honourable or decent... because she was too busy feeling sorry for herself to take responsibility for herself. The Gnarl only happened b/c of her self-centered fear. Same is true with Amy's spell on her. For it to turn her into Warren... she had to embrace his warped world view.

Very true. And while not a good person, I think her increasing obsession with power makes her such an interesting and complicated character. She had selfish tendencies and a feeling of superiority over others from the beginning of the show. I always felt like some of her comments about Cordelia seemed more related to feeling superior over her because she's "shallow" over distaste because she was a bully, especially in season 2. And it's interesting how that perceived moral and intellectual superiority combined with her insecurities to make her so susceptible to becoming addicted to power. Of course, not an excuse, but an explanation and a combination of toxic traits that are possible to grow from if she tried. I guess it could be argued that she tried to change in the middle of season 6 after she hurt Dawn, but I suppose that was more about the magic itself than, again, addressing the underlying issues that caused her addiction in the first place.

I do disagree with you that Willow "embraced Warren's warped world view" and that is why she turned into him. I think it's more that Willow recognized some of Warren's despicable traits in her past actions (i.e. manipulating people's agency) and felt guilty about it in a rare moment of self-reflection.

Though the show did frame it more about Tara's death, which while of course important, is something that is obviously not directly her fault and can cause the audience to sympathize with her "survivor's guilt" instead of addressing her actual problems. I did make a post about that too, but that episode was a missed opportunity to work toward Willow's redemption in my opinion.

Seasons 6 and 7 make it very clear, thanks to the character assassination performed on Giles, that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles' fault.

Giles personally knew the mistakes you could make with magic use, and, according to season 6 and 7 (which is really down to the terrible writing of both seasons), he knew people who could help train Willow properly. And he didn't bother. He could have taken Willow to the coven much, much earlier, he could have done something when he knew she was spiralling in S6, but he just didn't care.

The Giles of the last two seasons is impossible to match up with the Giles of the first five. And he's far from the only person that applies to.

It's so hard to blame this on Giles as a character, because his writing was so bad in the last two seasons, but he really should have done more. While I don't think that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles's fault, it seems inconceivable that he left town when Willow was so clearly going down a dark path. You make a great point about the coven; if Giles 1) had bad experiences with magic and 2) knew people who could help, why would he just leave Willow to spiral? Clearly in the show's canon there are good witches and healthy ways to learn magic, but no one significantly tried to intervene other than Tara, and it even took a couple of seasons for her to speak up about it.

And maybe I'm misunderstanding what happened there, but why did he think that casting a spell to make Willow experience all the pain of people in the world would make her calm down or become more reasonable?

***
I am wondering, what are either of your opinions of the level of control Willow had when she was corrupted by the magic? Do you think that the corruption or the height of emotions triggered by the dark magic she took in make her any less responsible for what she was doing?