Dark Willow and Redeemability

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The best understanding of this situation has always been from Andrew. This is Darth Rosenberg, Willow has chosen the path of the dark side, she is now a slave of her fear, anger and hate, she was seduced by the promise of power, only to have been lied to and received suffering. It's a terrible take on Dark Phoneix saga, it's an excellent take on Star Wars.

So yes, she is irredeemable, on her own merit, she deserves to end up like Catherine Madison, to have her magic backfire on her and to spend eternity as the slave of some elder thing, to be in the same state she saw Buffy in at the start of the season.

But it's not really about her, it's about Xander. His ability to love is what saves the day. The question must then be, does her Penance in S6 and S7 demonstrate sufficient remorse? Has she embraced the right handed path? Does she only use her talents for the greater good?

 

[NoShip]

I think if you can class Angel as redeemable and Spike & Faith then why not Willow? They all did unspeakable things due to darkness inside them forced onto them or by situations. Willow was in unspeakable pain and let the darkness swallow her whole. She drowned in the dark magic and needed saving as at the core I don't believe her to be an "Evil" person and it is the supernatural we are talking about.

If you ever hold each character morally accountable for what each did, the show falls apart. Moral accountability was never on the table.

 

[garfan]

If you ever hold each character morally accountable for what each did, the show falls apart. Moral accountability was never on the table.

to much metaphor, not enough lore to examine the actual moral complexities of the show. And we found out the showrunners were EXTREMELY flawed individuals

 

[NotASlayer]

did not say they were perfect, just redeemable. Yes, Giles made horrible mistakes and I have issues with his choices too... Sadly, ASH needed to make the choices he made for his family, so Giles vanished from the landscape kind of abruptly and the writers did not handle his leaving in a reasonable way. Given that ASH is now gone, I'm glad he got to spend time with his family.

Everyone was redeemable.

Well, maybe not Andrew.

😀

But that's coloured by the fact I really, really hate Andrew.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone could have made Willow make different choices. She was making world threatening choices back in season 4. She was ARROGANT. Arrogance (pride) is one of the deadly sins for a reason.

It's not so much "all the way back" as Giles had left her alone for four seasons already. What he should have done, instead of leaving Willow alone with magic, was, all the way back in season 2 if not season 1, he should have introduced her to the coven. He knew he couldn't teach her, he knew the consequences and he knew people who could, and did, help.

Out of universe, this is because the coven was not invented until late in season six. In universe, it makes Giles look like uncaring and dangerously incompetent. Again, the garbage writing of the last two seasons.

It's so hard to blame this on Giles as a character, because his writing was so bad in the last two seasons, but he really should have done more. While I don't think that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles's fault, it seems inconceivable that he left town when Willow was so clearly going down a dark path. You make a great point about the coven; if Giles 1) had bad experiences with magic and 2) knew people who could help, why would he just leave Willow to spiral? Clearly in the show's canon there are good witches and healthy ways to learn magic, but no one significantly tried to intervene other than Tara, and it even took a couple of seasons for her to speak up about it.

And maybe I'm misunderstanding what happened there, but why did he think that casting a spell to make Willow experience all the pain of people in the world would make her calm down or become more reasonable?

***
I am wondering, what are either of your opinions of the level of control Willow had when she was corrupted by the magic? Do you think that the corruption or the height of emotions triggered by the dark magic she took in make her any less responsible for what she was doing?

See above about the bad writing. 😀

By the time Willow was corrupted by the magic, she wasn't Willow. If she is responsible, then Spike is responsible for every bad thing he did as a vampire, something he chose to do. It's impossible to say "it's not Spike's fault, he was possessed by a demon" without also going "it's not Willow's fault, she had been taken over by dark magic." In fact, she was even less in her right mind by this point than Spike ever was.

Also, as a member of the rainbow tribe, I really hate the statements the last two seasons make about LGBTQ+ people.
1) lesbians aren't nice people. they do horrid things to their friends and they are unrepentant and arrogant.
2) kill your gays. The old hollowwood trope that the only good gay person is a dead person? yeah, NO. NO. NO.
3) punish bad behaviour by killing a gay person to punish the 'bad' gay person.
4) It is OK for lesbians to exploit other lesbians. They can get away with things that straight people would not... oh and lesbians aren't nice people.

I find the last two seasons homophobic, season six blatantly so. And let's not forget Andrew; closet gay and horrible person.

Yes, and look at the horrible consequences of their choices. I'm not clear that they knew fully the consequences as Darla did, but it is indisputable that their actions had a huge toll in broken lives and dead bodies, probably by the hundreds or even thousands.

Darla, and Dru, are the two I have the most sympathy for. Darla was dying, and was being treated even worse than women already were. Dru had been driven nuts. Neither Liam nor William had those excuses. Both were born into wealth, I'd judge Liam even more so than William, both were already better off than almost everyone, and, not a minor point, both were men so already had a major leg up, both chose monsterhood.

 

[quillandfang]

The best understanding of this situation has always been from Andrew. This is Darth Rosenberg, Willow has chosen the path of the dark side, she is now a slave of her fear, anger and hate, she was seduced by the promise of power, only to have been lied to and received suffering. It's a terrible take on Dark Phoneix saga, it's an excellent take on Star Wars.

I really enjoy the Star Wars comparison, it really makes a lot of sense. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." It's interesting to compare Dark Willow to a character like Vader who committed many evil deeds but eventually turned away from the Dark Side in the end. I really like how you put this!

But it's not really about her, it's about Xander. His ability to love is what saves the day. The question must then be, does her Penance in S6 and S7 demonstrate sufficient remorse? Has she embraced the right handed path? Does she only use her talents for the greater good?

I would say sort of? But not entirely. In season 7 she mostly uses her powers for the greater good (sensing the coming evil, the slayer spell), but I don't think her penance in s6 and 7 demonstrates sufficient remorse. As I mentioned previously, all of her magical rehab was shown off screen and was depicted more as bringing the magic under control than reflecting on her actions. And when she got back to Sunnydale she just... started using magic again? She definitely had the potential for redemption and is redeemable in my opinion, but it wasn't executed sufficiently.

Also regarding Xander, I really do love his role in stopping Willow. I felt his character arc was all over the place for several seasons before this, and him playing such a crucial role as the only "normal" member of their group helped to reestablish the Scoobies in my eyes, even though the other characters probably should've been more upset with Willow for longer. Anyways side tangent.

It's not so much "all the way back" as Giles had left her alone for four seasons already. What he should have done, instead of leaving Willow alone with magic, was, all the way back in season 2 if not season 1, he should have introduced her to the coven. He knew he couldn't teach her, he knew the consequences and he knew people who could, and did, help.

Out of universe, this is because the coven was not invented until late in season six. In universe, it makes Giles look like uncaring and dangerously incompetent. Again, the garbage writing of the last two seasons.

100% agree! Giles mentioned his negative experiences with magic early on, so as soon as Willow started showing significant power in season 2 he should have done something to help. Willow never had a magical mentor like witches and magical characters in other media do, and that ended up being a huge problem. Because power like that inherently requires responsibility and ethics, and Willow went straight to doing magic and skipped over that aspect, probably because she was confident she could handle those moral choices on her own.

By the time Willow was corrupted by the magic, she wasn't Willow. If she is responsible, then Spike is responsible for every bad thing he did as a vampire, something he chose to do. It's impossible to say "it's not Spike's fault, he was possessed by a demon" without also going "it's not Willow's fault, she had been taken over by dark magic." In fact, she was even less in her right mind by this point than Spike ever was.

This is an interesting point because I kind of do hold Spike responsible for some of what he did as a vampire? Though the vampire lore in Buffy is quite inconsistent and perhaps I feel that way because there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between ensouled and soulless Spike.

 

[NotASlayer]

This is an interesting point because I kind of do hold Spike responsible for some of what he did as a vampire? Though the vampire lore in Buffy is quite inconsistent and perhaps I feel that way because there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between ensouled and soulless Spike.

Inconsistency, thy name is Spike. Too many contortions were done to keep him around that it did, as I believe JM himself stated could happen, end up destroying a lot of vampire lore.

I also hold Spike responsible, especially as he himself felt absolutely no guilt for anything he had done to anyone until well into Angel S5. Compared to Angel, who felt huge remorse for everything he had done, souled Spike comes across in S7 as a narcissistic sociopath. After all, a soul does not make someone good or moral.

It's not uncommon for magic of any kind to be corrupting in fantasy, and myth, and often when that happens the person is considered to not be the same person any longer. Even more so than vampires, who are in fact based on the person they used to be (according to Angel in Dopplegangland); I would say the person they could be with all inhibitions lifted.

 

[NotASlayer]

@quillandfang It is probably noteworthy that this separation occurred in Angel, which, despite being technically part of the same universe, had elements of its mythology that didn't match up with Buffy. I never really considered this to be literal, though, more a metaphor. The fights in the mind weren't actually between Angel and Angelus, but between his good and bad, er, angels.

@garfan Yes, as I said, having a soul doesn't make you good, despite what S7 tried to claim. However, Angel was clearly struggling and eventually spent a century suffering from this. Spike, on the other hand, merely got slightly nutty in a basement for a couple of weeks, never regretted anything and was fine after. Now, out of universe, this was because a genuine portrayal of regret would have meant no Spike on the show; yet another case where keeping Spike around on Buffy destroyed the show's mythology.

 

[hoponlilmama]

he cast a spell to connect her with the emotions of the world. To remind her there was still love and beauty in the world even without Tara. But in her state of mind she only noticed the negative. This is why I have always viewed Dark Willow as suicidal. She chooses to try to kill everyone because they feel so similar to how she felt and that's what she was going to do with herself

I'd have to agree here. This is backed up by Willow's statement after she's followed the decoy Warren on the bus, where she tells Xander and Buffy that "I'm not coming back".

Post automatically merged: Today at 11:19 AM

Both Angel and Spike showed real penitence. no, Spike did not show it the way Angel did, but he also CHOSE the soul, so i think in a way he had an easier time KNOWING it was going to suck to some degree.

Spike went for a soul to impress a woman. Which he literally tells us in s7 ("The soul, the changes it's what you wanted!"). He didn't get it to be good or to redeem himself as a man and do good in the world.

He knew Buffy loves Angel and he figured that the only way she might love him is to be like him.


As for the original subject: Willow I think is redeemable. Not that I excuse what she did or her cruelty in s6 after she goes all veiny, but she was hurting, and combined with her being on a slippery slope with the dark magics that likely lingered in her system, sent her over the edge.

The issue was it wasn't properly explored in s7. It was more about her being scared of losing control if using magic.

 

[garfan]

@garfan Yes, as I said, having a soul doesn't make you good, despite what S7 tried to claim. However, Angel was clearly struggling and eventually spent a century suffering from this. Spike, on the other hand, merely got slightly nutty in a basement for a couple of weeks, never regretted anything and was fine after. Now, out of universe, this was because a genuine portrayal of regret would have meant no Spike on the show; yet another case where keeping Spike around on Buffy destroyed the show's mythology.

Okay, but Spike's couple of weeks in the basement all the way up to the end of season 5 of Angel all fall within Angel's period staying with the other three when he was first ensouled. He didn't go live in an alley immediately. In fact later retcons would reveal that period only lasted around 20 years

 

[NotASlayer]

Okay, but Spike's couple of weeks in the basement all the way up to the end of season 5 of Angel all fall within Angel's period staying with the other three when he was first ensouled. He didn't go live in an alley immediately. In fact later retcons would reveal that period only lasted around 20 years

That's another issue that Angel especially caused; retconning what was already known about Angel. But we do know that Angel was having issues during that period and we do know that Spike literally didn't give a damn about repentance (not quite the exact words, but to that effect). It took seeing Hell with a soul and getting his hands chopped off for Spike to start changing, otherwise he would have continued the same old narcissistic way.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Vampire Decency: When a Lion wants to go to the watering hole, it will hold it's tail high and saunder in. The hoofstock will move away, but won't run, and the lions will drink their fill without triggering a stampede. I would entertain that vamps can behave between thirst or during the daytime hours, and that killing indiscriminately was largely the Master's personal doctrine.

I would also note, that with the chip in place, Spike was the omega male, and the demon could understand how to act around your superiors, even if they were human. I mean, a vampire employed by a Necromancer wouldn't kill the necromancer at first opportunity. I think that would probably be the key, Spike isn't behaving. He's just a monkey performing a trick to get a treat, and we are anthropomorphizing him.

 

[garfan]

Re: Vampire Decency: When a Lion wants to go to the watering hole, it will hold it's tail high and saunder in. The hoofstock will move away, but won't run, and the lions will drink their fill without triggering a stampede. I would entertain that vamps can behave between thirst or during the daytime hours, and that killing indiscriminately was largely the Master's personal doctrine.

vamps like Russell Winters or the vamps in the suckhouse

 

[BuffyElevated]

Nowhere in the narrative do we ever see Willow truly penitent. She was sorry for herself. Sorry for being caught. Ashamed for how her friends viewed her. Desired to make them not angry... but as soon as she was in a situation where life didn't go according to plan, she started mind raping her friends... even after being caught.

Plenty of people lose the love of their lives and they don't go out and murder the people who were responsible... and yeah, I'm speaking from personal experience. It sucks to lose someone you can't live without. It never stops sucking. It doesn't give you the right to give into all your urges... and anyone who tells you that having your loved one murdered or killed by someone (even accidentally) doesn't put you in a rage at that person is lying. Adulthood, morality and being HUMAN is a choice. One that Willow repeatedly does NOT make.

The rules DO apply to you, Willow. No matter how powerful you are.

She wanted to enslave Oz... to force him to stay. This was NOT a moral or reasonable choice. Did he run in fear over facing his own demon? yes. Was it fun? no. Does that give her any right to force him to come back... or try? NEVER.

What actually happened with her magics was PLANET and reality threatening. in a WORD she could have ended the world... just as easily as she brought Amy back, then sent her back to rat-ness WITHOUT EVEN NOTICING!

Willow was the stupidest smart person ever. She honestly believed her way was the right one AND that her desire trumped everyone's will. That is EVIL. You know who else thinks and ACTS that way? Despots. dictators. megalomaniac cult leaders. mass murderers. Children who pull the wings off insects because they can.

She never learned the basic ideas of responsibility or accountability. She became more powerful over time and loved it enough to threaten Giles when he confronted her. MAYBE after she did the white magic slayer activation, that purified her... but at no time before that do i see her as someone who could be presumed good, honourable or decent... because she was too busy feeling sorry for herself to take responsibility for herself. The Gnarl only happened b/c of her self-centered fear. Same is true with Amy's spell on her. For it to turn her into Warren... she had to embrace his warped world view.

Funny thing? She was wilful from the first season. Hacking is not lawful. She showed herself to be wilful, self-centered, self-pitying and vindictive. Did some of those she was vindictive to deserve consequences? Probably. But the fact that her first response was fundamentally dishonest and vindictive? That's telling. Her 'relationship' with 'Malcolm' showed some of the same attitude... but THAT i will give her a partial pass for because he was a pass master at manipulation.

Nope, not my favourite person.

This is how I feel about Willow. The more times I rewatch the show, the more I despise her character post Season 3. Once she gets into magic, she morphs into this arrogant, selfish person who uses magic over and over again to harm her friends and loved ones. It's crazy 'cause I used to love Willow so much but as an adult, my perspective has shifted so much and I can't stand her anymore once we get to the later seasons.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

vamps like Russell Winters or the vamps in the suckhouse

What's worth remembering is that Vampires, as demons, fancy themselves as false gods*, and should be very happy to receive gifts and understand the promise of future gifts. That is, propitiation.

But yeah, any future incarnation of Buffy should keep vampires evil, but not unreasonable brutes. This will be more important if Sarah is involved. Keeping fisticuffs to a minimum while relying on scheming is a good way to tell stories without 10 hours of fight choreography.

*To be an true god, you have to claim some tie to ultimate reality. A Fae who wants free stuff not to kill you is just a extortionist.