Debate: what actually happened with Spuffy relationship

[Lill3Letrange]

I have just finished rewatching Buffy and I realized that Spike ran into a wall when he confessed his love to Buffy.

I will put aside differences between humans and vampires and focus solely on them as entities with personalities.

Here is my theory:
Now, he developed feelings for here which were one-sided. And those were also really strong feelings. It seems like what triggered his love in their relationship, didn't wake up anything in her. This mostly means that they have different preferences and triggers for developing feelings. So he is now all worked up because of the intensity of his feelings for Buffy and it that kind of situation is hard to imagine for him that she feels nothing for him. So right when he confessed his feelings to her: Boom!!! He ran into a wall!!!! She feels nothing but he is desperately obsessed with her. Now the situation is completely disproportional and they are anything but on the same page. When this kind of thing happens, the side which feels nothing is buffled by the intensity of the feelings of the other party. I think this puts off the side who is not in love even more.
To be fair, this is a pretty sad situation, if you ask me. I think it actually happens to people in general. But there is no helping here. In my opinion, he should have seen this more objectively. The other side is clearly not in love and it is not likely it will ever be.
I am not saying any thing like 'he is too good for her'. Rather than that, I am saying 'notice in what kind of situation are you'.
To me personally, it felt like he was severely blinded by his feelings. On top of that, it seemed like he took it too far in many situations.

 

[TriBel]

In my opinion, he should have seen this more objectively.

I'm not sure this is as easy as you anticipate. Doesn't Buffy attempt to reason herself out of her feelings in Potential (the conversation with Amanda) and fail?

The other side is clearly not in love and it is not likely it will ever be.

Is it (genuine question)? Is that how you read the text?

it felt like he was severely blinded by his feelings.

You're using sight as a metaphor and equating sight with knowledge and reason...it's this metaphor that season 7 unpacks. Yes - emotions can cloud judgement but this presupposes judgement itself is rational and objective and free of emotions and often it isn't.

they are anything but on the same page.

I'd say they are on the same page but initially each is on a different side of the page.

 

[Priceless]

Buffy says to Willow "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?"

She was in love with Spike in Season6 and she tells him so at the end of Season7.

 

[Lill3Letrange]

Buffy says to Willow "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?"

She was in love with Spike in Season6 and she tells him so at the end of Season7.

See this the thing, I don't believe she has. To be it seemed like she was in a bad place and needed destruction. It probably made her fall under the influence of his feelings.
She constantly felt like she was doing something wrong, in terms of 'betraying how she actually felt'. She clearly said that she was using him, and I do believe she was. Everytime she died, something was wrong with her (which is perfectly natural). But it's her pattern and she usually sways in these situations.
Whatever it was, I don't think it equals love in her terms. In Spike's terms, maybe yeah, he would understand this as love but not her concept really.

 

[Lill3Letrange]

I'm not sure this is as easy as you anticipate. Doesn't Buffy attempt to reason herself out of her feelings in Potential (the conversation with Amanda) and fail?

Is it (genuine question)? Is that how you read the text?

You're using sight as a metaphor and equating sight with knowledge and reason...it's this metaphor that season 7 unpacks. Yes - emotions can cloud judgement but this presupposes judgement itself is rational and objective and free of emotions and often it isn't.

I'd say they are on the same page but initially each is on a different side of the page.

I am not actually saying that emotions don't cloud judgment but there must be a point in which you realize something. Although, that might not help your feelings at all.

Also, I don't think she was trying to reason herself out of her feelings. I think she was simply repulsed by this idea and at times attracted to it.

When I said not on the same page, I was actually reffing to the moment when he had Dru and her tied up to decide. Now, to him top of the romance and didn't seem like a big of a deal. To her mind - psychotic lunatic. He really did hit the wall at that moment. She even locked him away from her house. It's unfortunate but his actions would provoke that in any human.
He went a bit berserk and this is where the frustration and asymmetry of the feelings can be seen.

 

[Bop]

I'm really against the idea that all of the times Buffy vocally expressed utter disgust for Spike were all false but the odd time she indicates she's in love with Spike she means it 🤷‍♀️ I don't believe it.
I think with Buffy it's always a mixture of her own character traits that got her into the situation with Spike in season 7. Buffy can be self-loathing which begins to develop in season 5, blows up in season 6 and she's trying to reconcile with it in season 7. If you mix the self-doubt and self-loathing with her incredibly strong moral foundation it explains all of her behaviour towards Spike.

 

[Lill3Letrange]

I'm really against the idea that all of the times Buffy vocally expressed utter disgust for Spike were all false but the odd time she indicates she's in love with Spike she means it 🤷‍♀️ I don't believe it.
I think with Buffy it's always a mixture of her own character traits that got her into the situation with Spike in season 7. Buffy can be self-loathing which begins to develop in season 5, blows up in season 6 and she's trying to reconcile with it in season 7. If you mix the self-doubt and self-loathing with her incredibly strong moral foundation it explains all of her behaviour towards Spike.

I'm on board with this. She does have a rather tricky personality and at times she is a little bit selfish (at least I percieve her like that...she may not be at all times). First, she is dominated by her feelings, and while trying to define them, she often messes things up. To be fair, the only reason she slept with Spike because she was in a bad place. Technically, being with Spike was against her moral code. By the way, her moral code and Spike's moral code kinda clash. To be fair, he doesn't seem to have a moral code...at least not a strong one as Buffy does. That's why he never anticipates when she will feel disgusted with his actions.
And she was kinda self-loathing through the whole series. Almost every time she goes through a crisis.

 

[Kratos]

I dunno. I just finished rewatching Buffy too and think what happened with Spuffy is left open to interpretation. Joss Whedon said as much in the dvd commentary for Chosen.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I have just finished rewatching Buffy and I realized that Spike ran into a wall when he confessed his love to Buffy.

I will put aside differences between humans and vampires and focus solely on them as entities with personalities.

Here is my theory:
Now, he developed feelings for here which were one-sided. And those were also really strong feelings. It seems like what triggered his love in their relationship, didn't wake up anything in her. This mostly means that they have different preferences and triggers for developing feelings. So he is now all worked up because of the intensity of his feelings for Buffy and it that kind of situation is hard to imagine for him that she feels nothing for him. So right when he confessed his feelings to her: Boom!!! He ran into a wall!!!! She feels nothing but he is desperately obsessed with her. Now the situation is completely disproportional and they are anything but on the same page. When this kind of thing happens, the side which feels nothing is buffled by the intensity of the feelings of the other party. I think this puts off the side who is not in love even more.
To be fair, this is a pretty sad situation, if you ask me. I think it actually happens to people in general. But there is no helping here. In my opinion, he should have seen this more objectively. The other side is clearly not in love and it is not likely it will ever be.
I am not saying any thing like 'he is too good for her'. Rather than that, I am saying 'notice in what kind of situation are you'.
To me personally, it felt like he was severely blinded by his feelings. On top of that, it seemed like he took it too far in many situations.

I highlighted the most important part of your statement. Desperately Obsessed with her- that's what it was for Spike.
First he was obsessed with killing her
Once he was chipped and could not kill her, he was obsessed with sleeping with her/making her fall in love with him- basically obsessed with conquering her
Then once he could physically harm her but she started sleeping with him- he became obsessed with pulling her into the dark
Once he gets his soul- the underlying obsession is still there (otherwise he would have left Sunnydale IMO), but he has some sense of right and wrong so he doesn't push her as much as he previously did.
Spike's interest in Buffy was obsession. Buffy's interest in Spike was self-harm because she hated herself and then later she pitied him.
Obsession is not love. Neither is self-harm and pity.

 

[Priceless]

I'm not sure this is as easy as you anticipate. Doesn't Buffy attempt to reason herself out of her feelings in Potential (the conversation with Amanda) and fail?

She does. It really is a great scene. Amanda complaining that a boy is picking on her and people tell her that's a sign he likes her but more than that, she likes him back. She a potential, a proto-slayer and she wants to pick on him back and that's the sign she likes him. It works nicely as a mirror to the Buffy/Spike relationship.

I love Buffy's lines, she's trying to talk herself out of it, but it's so definitely not over and she still has feelings for him:
Well, it depends. Sometimes that's how people relate. Being mean to each other. Even mortal enemies— (increasingly emphatic) Then with the— And that leads to no good, absolutely no good. And much confusion. A-and then it's over. Absolutely, seriously, definitely over. And that's confusing too. The over part. Which it is. Over!

As for Spike, his feelings for Buffy began as obsession, but we saw through three seasons how he grew and changed and the way he saw Buffy changed. First he saw her as a mannequin, a thing, not a real person at all, just something he could take his anger out on. Then he needed something more that that, something he could fight and be physical with, so he imprinted his image of Buffy onto Harmony, a dead creature, but a step up from a mannequin. This version of Buffy he got to punch and have sex with but it wasn't good enough now, because it wasn't her.

So he had the Buffybot made, the perfect version of what he wanted. Someone he could have a full relationship with, and who would love him back. He didn't just make her a sex toy, he gave her strength and morals and a mission to fight evil, because he loved all that Buffy was, not just parts of her.

I love his journey from evil monster to souled hero, and his initial obsession for Buffy was the catalyst for that journey, but his love for her, and her for him, absolutely transcends that.

 

[SpikeRocks]

Desperately Obsessed with her- that's what it was for Spike

This is a vampire-love thing IMO.

We’ve got soul-having Angel’s obsession with teenage Buffy and her innocence/purity/goodness. Him pedestal-ing her and her starring role in his journey towards redemption. Stalking. Check. Lurking. Check. Popping up uninvited in her bedroom whenever he wants. Check. Multiple counts of jealousy for other males around her (her peers). Check. Surveilling her/keeping tabs on her long after they’re broken up. Check. All obsessive. Then continues after losing his soul, but turns more disturbing, destructive, and victimizing.

And there’s of course the obsessive-nature of teenage love/romances….Buffy obsessed with Angel, Angel obsessed with Buffy.

The show just tends to go the destructive-obsession route with vampire love, especially when sans-soul. I guess it raises the stakes lol. I personally find soul-having Angel’s continued obsession with her after they’re no longer together and acting like he has a claim on her cookies, most off-putting out of all the vampire-obsessiveness, but that’s me! 🤷‍♀️


Concerning the OP:

To be it seemed like she was in a bad place and needed destruction. It probably made her fall under the influence of his feelings.
She constantly felt like she was doing something wrong, in terms of 'betraying how she actually felt'.

You’re right about her bad place and self-destruction and feeling wrong. Her feelings for Spike is where it get’s tricky because it's not a priority. Everything in S6 is about her depression, first and foremost, and her feelings for Spike (that she has them at all) serve that story line. To me, her attraction and feelings for Spike are just another weapon her brain uses to reinforce the feeling that she’s “wrong”, to keep her in that down-low place. That’s how depression works.

Though, when they do touch on her feelings for him, it’s often framed in a specific way: She can’t feel these things, she can’t love him, she’s supposed to be against him and hate him. The writers were always very careful in choosing their words.

DEAD THINGS:

TARA: (concerned) Buffy, I-I promise, there's nothing wrong with you.
BUFFY: There has to be! This just can't be me, it isn't me. (starting to cry) Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?
TARA: You mean hit you.
Buffy meets Tara's eyes, but only for a moment, then looks away. Tara frowns as she begins to get it.
TARA: Oh……..Oh, huh. Really.
BUFFY: He's everything I hate. He's everything that ... I'm supposed to be against. But the only time that I ever feel anything is when ... Don't tell anyone, please.
TARA: I won't.
BUFFY: (crying) The way they would look at me ... I just couldn't...
TARA: I won't tell anyone. I wouldn't do that.
BUFFY: Why can't I stop? Why do I keep letting him in?
TARA: Do you love him?
Silence….Buffy just stares at her tearfully.
TARA: I-It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and, and he does love you. A-and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
BUFFY: (still tearful) What? Using him? What's okay about that?
TARA: It's not that simple.
BUFFY: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong. Tell me that I'm wrong, please...
Buffy starts to cry for real now.
BUFFY: Please don't forgive me, please... (sobbing) Please don't...
She slides off the table onto the floor, kneeling, putting her head in Tara's lap. Tara looks uncertain, puts her hands comfortingly on Buffy's head.
BUFFY: (sobbing, muffled) Please don't forgive me...
Tara strokes her hair gently as she continues crying.

AS YOU WERE:
BUFFY: It's over.
SPIKE: (smiles, moves closer to her) I've memorized this tune, luv. Think I have the sheet music. Doesn't change what you want.
BUFFY: I know that. I do want you. Being with you ... makes things ... simpler. For a little while.
SPIKE: I don't call five hours straight a little while.
BUFFY: I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...
SPIKE: (moves even closer) Really not complaining here.
BUFFY:.....and it's killing me. I have to be strong about this. I'm sorry....William.


SEEING RED:

BUFFY: I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never trust you enough for it to be love.


It’s always a matter of she doesn’t love him, because she can’t. He has no soul. She can’t trust him. And if she did feel she loved him at times, given who she is (slayer) and what he is (soulless vampire), she could never admit it to herself or to others. I think her feelings for him add to her confusion in S6 of who exactly she is now, and how it conflicts with her view of who she thought she was (pre-death). She also could never be allowed those feelings, by her duty and by her friends. Everyone struggles with admitting parts of themselves/their feelings if they think that, as a result, they would no longer be accepted by their family/friends. I think that’s at play for her as well (Tara being the exception, bc she’s an amazing person). I think it was hard enough for her to grapple with her feelings for Angel, and getting acceptance of him/their relationship, even with him having a soul. She’s learned lessons from that experience.

The most she can ever allow herself to admit out loud about Spike, is yes she has feelings for him, yes she wants him, and yes he’s in her heart. But in general, the full scope of her feelings are always kept murky for the audience and open to interpretation. Buffy keeps a lot close-to-the-chest ever since her first-love trauma. We don’t really get a good peak inside her until Conversations with Dead People…..and of course that slip-of-the-tongue about “still being in love with Spike” when she’s weighing the decision to approach a new romantic relationship.

 

[BuffyBot22]

This is a vampire-love thing IMO.

We’ve got soul-having Angel’s obsession with teenage Buffy and her innocence/purity/goodness. Him pedestal-ing her and her starring role in his journey towards redemption. Stalking. Check. Lurking. Check. Popping up uninvited in her bedroom whenever he wants. Check. Multiple counts of jealousy for other males around her (her peers). Check. Surveilling her/keeping tabs on her long after they’re broken up. Check. All obsessive. Then continues after losing his soul, but turns more disturbing, destructive, and victimizing.

And there’s of course the obsessive-nature of teenage love/romances….Buffy obsessed with Angel, Angel obsessed with Buffy.

The show just tends to go the destructive-obsession route with vampire love, especially when sans-soul. I guess it raises the stakes lol. I personally find soul-having Angel’s continued obsession with her after they’re no longer together and acting like he has a claim on her cookies, most off-putting out of all the vampire-obsessiveness, but that’s me! 🤷‍♀️

Well I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Angel was sent by Whistler (basically TPTB) to help guide Buffy on her mission- which I am assuming where you are getting the stalking from. He was supposed to watch her and pretty much intervene on an as need basis until they obviously got more involved.
Wow pretty sure he popped in her bedroom uninvited all of 1 time and it was to check on her after she got back from her summer away after the master killed her.
He got slightly jealous of Xander once? But sure OK
After they broke up he most definitely did NOT surveil her or keep tabs on her. Doyle got a vision she was in trouble so he came to Sunnydale to check it out as he did with all visions Doyle or Cordy got.
The next time he came to Sunnydale was because Buffy's mom died. That was pure courtesy and love that was still there between them, but not him keeping tabs.
Then he came back at the end of the world in s7 to give her the Champion medallion. Again not keeping tabs.

Spike's love for Buffy was pure obsession. First he was obsessed with killing her. Then he was obsessed with sleeping with her. Then he was obsessed with making her fall in love with him because he thought he loved her. Nothing about that was love.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

After they broke up he most definitely did NOT surveil her or keep tabs on her.

"Sending your lackeys to do your stalking for you. That is really pathetic."
"All right, fine. I'm not proud of it, but it's... it's Buffy."
"How many you got on her?"
"Uh, just the one. But he got spotted. Called me from the hospital after he regained consciousness."

Definitely NOT.

 

[SpikeRocks]

Well I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Angel was sent by Whistler (basically TPTB) to help guide Buffy on her mission- which I am assuming where you are getting the stalking from. He was supposed to watch her and pretty much intervene on an as need basis until they obviously got more involved.

For one, if you can watch S1-S3 and NOT recognize Angel's lurking and stalking, and also NOT understand how we're supposed to "suspend our disbelief" because it's a vampire thing, then you're just showing you've got some big "Angel" blinders on dude. For two, it's incredibly skewed to try to paint the lurking/stalking of S1 (and beyond) as just him being "on the job" when by the episode "Angel" (1x7) we're now told he's now in love with her. For that to be the case, it could no longer have been purely "work" related for a while now. Lurking/stalking is a vampire thing, especially a vampire-love thing. We're shown this over and over, yes including with Angel, and for women/others besides Buffy.

Wow pretty sure he popped in her bedroom uninvited all of 1 time and it was to check on her after she got back from her summer away after the master killed her.

Not just once, nope.

He got slightly jealous of Xander once? But sure OK

Totally wrong. He's literally jealous of nearly every male around Buffy: Xander, Owen, Ford, Scott, Riley, Spike. In every case, there are scenes/dialogues/looks devoted to his jealousy. But I guess those are your Angel-blinders again 🤷‍♀️

Also, can't help but notice you leaving out Angel's obsession and disturbing obsessive behavior with her when he's soulless, which is the closest parallel we have to Spike's obsession with her while he's soulless. And also, unless you haven't followed Angel's whole story outside of Buffy, his personality just tends to run on the obsessive side.....kind of always.....and it's why it gets so incredibly disturbing when he's soulless.

Spike's love for Buffy was pure obsession. First he was obsessed with killing her. Then he was obsessed with sleeping with her. Then he was obsessed with making her fall in love with him because he thought he loved her. Nothing about that was love.

I don't find it worth debating the "quality" of Spike's love for Buffy against Angel's love for Buffy, as I get the sense the Angel-blinders you've got are pretty obscuring when looking at Angel's love and anyone else who loves Buffy who "isn't Angel". They both loved her. I don't respond to how Angel loved her, but I do respond to how Spike loved her.

 

[Lill3Letrange]

"Sending your lackeys to do your stalking for you. That is really pathetic."
"All right, fine. I'm not proud of it, but it's... it's Buffy."
"How many you got on her?"
"Uh, just the one. But he got spotted. Called me from the hospital after he regained consciousness."

Definitely NOT.

You know, now that you mentioned that...the guy is kinda creepy and lurking type. Hahahaha I always kind oversee this since you know....vampire....should be creepy. But when you think about it, dude seriously needs to reconsider his dating style. XD

 

[thrasherpix]

You know, now that you mentioned that...the guy is kinda creepy and lurking type. Hahahaha I always kind oversee this since you know....vampire....should be creepy. But when you think about it, dude seriously needs to reconsider his dating style. XD

I'm only half-awake so I hope this isn't more off topic than I realize.

When a girl had me read Twilight, I was hating the idea of romance drivel, preferring vampire horror, but Edward's behavior really did creep me out if in a mundane way, and I actually had a nightmare over it (not a typical vampire nightmare of mine). At least in Buffy, a vampire watching a girl sleep is considered creepy rather than romantic.

 

[Lill3Letrange]

I'm only half-awake so I hope this isn't more off topic than I realize.

When a girl had me read Twilight, I was hating the idea of romance drivel, preferring vampire horror, but Edward's behavior really did creep me out if in a mundane way, and I actually had a nightmare over it (not a typical vampire nightmare of mine). At least in Buffy, a vampire watching a girl sleep is considered creepy rather than romantic.

I feel like it was creepy and kinda threatening when Angelus did it. But when Angel did it, it felt like it was attributed to his lack social intelligence...or he was simply just too old to adjust.

 

[BuffyBot22]

For one, if you can watch S1-S3 and NOT recognize Angel's lurking and stalking, and also NOT understand how we're supposed to "suspend our disbelief" because it's a vampire thing, then you're just showing you've got some big "Angel" blinders on dude. For two, it's incredibly skewed to try to paint the lurking/stalking of S1 (and beyond) as just him being "on the job" when by the episode "Angel" (1x7) we're now told he's now in love with her. For that to be the case, it could no longer have been purely "work" related for a while now. Lurking/stalking is a vampire thing, especially a vampire-love thing. We're shown this over and over, yes including with Angel, and for women/others besides Buffy.


Not just once, nope.


Totally wrong. He's literally jealous of nearly every male around Buffy: Xander, Owen, Ford, Scott, Riley, Spike. In every case, there are scenes/dialogues/looks devoted to his jealousy. But I guess those are your Angel-blinders again 🤷‍♀️

Also, can't help but notice you leaving out Angel's obsession and disturbing obsessive behavior with her when he's soulless, which is the closest parallel we have to Spike's obsession with her while he's soulless. And also, unless you haven't followed Angel's whole story outside of Buffy, his personality just tends to run on the obsessive side.....kind of always.....and it's why it gets so incredibly disturbing when he's soulless.


I don't find it worth debating the "quality" of Spike's love for Buffy against Angel's love for Buffy, as I get the sense the Angel-blinders you've got are pretty obscuring when looking at Angel's love and anyone else who loves Buffy who "isn't Angel". They both loved her. I don't respond to how Angel loved her, but I do respond to how Spike loved her.

I find you incredibly rude with this whole "Angel's blinders" thing. You do not have to personally attack me because I have a different opinion from you. I could just as easily try to ridicule you as you are to me by saying you have on "Spike Blinders"
I would try to debate this with you, but you clearly aren't going to try to even see how I view it because apparently I have on "Angel Blinder's."
So I am going to respectfully withdraw from this discussion since I see it going no where.

"Sending your lackeys to do your stalking for you. That is really pathetic."
"All right, fine. I'm not proud of it, but it's... it's Buffy."
"How many you got on her?"
"Uh, just the one. But he got spotted. Called me from the hospital after he regained consciousness."

Definitely NOT.

You have to remind me which season and episode this is in. I am not recognizing the dialogue (probably because it has been a while since I have fully watched Buffy & Angel).

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Unfortunately, we can not choose who we love.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Unfortunately, we can not choose who we love.

Or what we love.