Discussion of 2.20 "Go Fish" - Aired 5/5/1998 (WB-US)
- Thread starter Willow Rosenberg
- Start date
Wild At Heart
the moon lights his way
I would've punched Snyder too. That was a very ignorant comment he made. I also love when Buffy breaks the one guy's nose. So awesome & he deserved more than that if you ask me.
Wesley Pryce
Angel Investigations
Mr Trick
Scooby
Top three weakest of this season I would say, and maybe in the top ten worse of all time.
Its a lame creature feature idea which never should have let on the air. The story is really clunky and not well thought out. Plus there are very little great action scenes or comic moments. I give the main cast and Snyder credit for getting as much life as they could into a dead script.
Another problem is the idea that Buffy would actually hand around with that jock loser. I get that she sees him as just someone to hang around with, but I just don't buy that she would fall for his suggestion that he just wants to hangs out with her.
Its a lame creature feature idea which never should have let on the air. The story is really clunky and not well thought out. Plus there are very little great action scenes or comic moments. I give the main cast and Snyder credit for getting as much life as they could into a dead script.
Another problem is the idea that Buffy would actually hand around with that jock loser. I get that she sees him as just someone to hang around with, but I just don't buy that she would fall for his suggestion that he just wants to hangs out with her.
Fuffy Baith
2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Oh no, I thought we were getting along, but I have to disagree again. (don't hate me). I really like this episode. It's not great but I like the creature of the week and yea it had problems but it works for me overall. Plus Xander in a speedo! Can't go wrong with that 😉. lol. And I also like the idea of Buffy hanging out with guys kind of moving on from Angel. Even though he was a dbag. Also I really like the scene with Cordelia talking to the fish guy that she thinks is Xander. It shows that she does care about him and knowing what happens in s3, it kind of breaks my hear. Poor Cordy. And I thought the comedy was fine. Jonathon peeing in the pool.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I'm going to have to separate you two...mainly because my opinion falls smack bang in the middle. 😛
I don't hate the ep with a fiery passion but nor do I think it's really great or anything- I think it's a solid middling effort. An average episode for that season- better that 'IMG' or 'RB' but worse than a lot of the truly good ones:
I like the monsters, the twist to their origin, Xander going undercover on the swim team and Snyder.
I don't like Buffy hanging out with Gage, the explanation to the plot, or the ending.
I don't hate the ep with a fiery passion but nor do I think it's really great or anything- I think it's a solid middling effort. An average episode for that season- better that 'IMG' or 'RB' but worse than a lot of the truly good ones:
I like the monsters, the twist to their origin, Xander going undercover on the swim team and Snyder.
I don't like Buffy hanging out with Gage, the explanation to the plot, or the ending.
Fuffy Baith
Much better than IMG!
Mr Trick
Scooby
I was going to say that we were getting on too well😉
I normally enjoy the creature of the week aspect to Buffy but this one was just too lame. And I am in full agreement with thetopher of some of the storyline weakinesses.
I too love the scene with Xander in his speedo and there are some fun Cordy/Xander moments, Willow too is quite funny and any episode with Snyder in can't be totally bad. But thats the thing even in the worse episodes of Buffy there are still watchable things, that is what makes it better from about 90% of television. When most shows have bad episodes they really suck, but when Buffy has one there are still lots to enjoy.
Fuffy Baith
2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
Is there something you want to tell me?😉 lol
This is true and is probably why we love Buffy the show. Even the bad episodes are better to watch than bad episodes of other shows. I can see and understand the problems you guys have with it it's not a great plot, but I tend to overlook things when I really enjoy an episode. So I forgive it. It's also the first episode I ever saw of s2, so there's some nostalgia there too.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I think the best thing about this episode is that it has Wentworth Miller and Shane West in it lol
We do get to see a nice side of Cordelia and how much she cares for Xander in it, though. And Nick does look hot in it. I could leave the fish people bits of the ep though.
We do get to see a nice side of Cordelia and how much she cares for Xander in it, though. And Nick does look hot in it. I could leave the fish people bits of the ep though.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Gotta give it to you, you're doing your best to defend it😀 I think Xander/Cordy is about the only good thing about it🙂
Fuffy Baith
2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
I think that's the reason that I actually like this episode. Xander/Cordy and Willow are all great. I don't mind the fish monster/steroid metaphor thing, it could have worked. But the Coach villain was terrible and some of the sexist stuff is bad. Synder is pretty good though and it's got some good dialogue. One thing I love is when Xander walks over to the girls in his speedo, and he's like "I'm undercover" and Buffy says "Not under much". That cracks me up! And he's like "I can keep an eye on them" and Willow, a little too excited says "When you're nude!... I mean dressing?" lol. All this stuff makes the episode enjoyable for me.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I do think its a stratch and it doesn't really work on any level for me. When you factor in some of the sexism that just makes it worse. Well Snyder is always good😀 Although even his part in this episode is pretty poor due to the writing not the actor. One of the worse episodes ever IMO. And the sad thing is I will have to sit through it again soon for a certain thread😉
I think it's a really interesting episode. My thoughts are the same as when I last posted about how disgusting the rape contents are. The fact that Buffy gets blamed due to the clothes she's wearing is awful and done a little to flipantly for me.
I think it highlights nicely how jocks seem to get away with everything in school and drug use in sports.
One thought about Willow, if she's teaching all Jenny's classes how can she attend her own classes?
I think it highlights nicely how jocks seem to get away with everything in school and drug use in sports.
One thought about Willow, if she's teaching all Jenny's classes how can she attend her own classes?
S2E20: Go Fish:
- Go Fish is considered one of the weakest episodes for its unfortunate placement – right before the finale – it’s not an intense episode like Passion and I Only Have Eyes For You, which is what viewers except now that we’re close to the finale, and then there’s the unsatisfying, comedic way it deals with important issues like sexual assault, victim-blaming and gang rape.
- The episode talks about “pressure” – they say the word like 10 times in the episode - and it comes from different angles and hurts different people. Pressure on a successful team to keep winning, pressure on teachers to make sure important students get a passing grade, pressure on average boys to be aggressive and manly, pressure on girls from boys to put out, pressure on girls to keep their reputation untainted by dressing modestly and making sure they don’t “do it with the entire swim team.”
- I just love how a small town Sunnydale keeps getting bigger. This is so not a one Starbucks town.
- I’ve never really thought about the fact that swim teams aren’t considered as cool as football/baseball teams. Maybe it’s just Xander being jealous.
- Buffy does have a habit of being fooled by phonies. A couple of lines that reflect depth and maturity and you win her over. She would fall for that again with Parker in S4.
- As I said earlier, the episode mildly discusses the pressure on boys “to be men” and that if they’re not manly enough in the eyes of society then it is okay to make fun of them and bully them. Johnathan and Xander are not considered “manly,” which makes them an easy target for the swim team and Cordelia to bully them. The bullying and ridicule they face daily fills them with bitterness and resentment that create episodes like BB&B and Superstar. It’s interesting that both Xander and Johnathan chided Buffy for saving their life – having a girl save a boy from beating or humiliation makes that boy a more glaring target for extra bullying and mockery. Something Xander and Johnathan would desperately like to avoid.
- I’ve never really had a classmate subbing as a teacher before, but those kids are so well behaved in Willow’s class. I personally can’t buy it. Teachers already face hell from unruly students, especially in high school, so how is it that Willow is met with nothing but respect – leaving Gage aside, he wasn’t exactly that rude with Willow. In my first year teaching fourth graders, I’ve dealt with far worse than that.
- When Willow tells Xander and Cordelia about her encounter with Snyder, Xander starts being the voice of common people while Cordelia takes the opinion of the privileged. Xander, coming from a poor household and known as the school’s clown loser, obviously resents the special treatment the swim team is showered with. Cordelia, on the other hand, is from a wealthy family and the most popular cheerleader who always had it easy, which is why she’s siding with the “winners.”
- Now Buffy is getting bored with “depth” as Cameron rambles on and on about the ocean. And then she discovered that all that stuff about “no pressure” was nothing but bullshit. Cameron uses lines like “No pressure” and “Just talking” to, as Ross Geller puts, “I assume we’re looking for an answer more sophisticated than ‘to get you into bed’.”
- Buffy is blamed for her own sexual assault because of the way she dresses. I like that the episode’s tone condemns the slut shaming in a subtle way without making a big scene about it – which would have made it less realistic. Though it would have been awesome if the nurse came to Buffy’s defense with a witty one liner.
- While the swim team dudes are jerks, their situation saddens me not only because Snyder and their coach care more about winning than their wellbeing, but because they’ve been experimented on and turned into monsters without their consent. Just for a stupid cup! And this is more of the show criticism than the episode, but what about the boys’ parents? I know the show doesn’t seem to acknowledge that those students have parents, except for Buffy, but it’s just unrealistic how it glosses over the parents’ issue.
- I’m actually surprised Xander isn’t joining Buffy on her rant against the swim team. He was desperate to have her backing him up with his own rant earlier.
- I’ve seen a lot of fans complain about the Scoobies lack of a reaction to Buffy’s story, and while it’s a valid complaint, I guess researching the demon eating the insides of people is more important a task than listening to another “Buffy saved herself” story. Perhaps because Buffy is stronger than any guy in school it makes their attacks unthreatening in the eyes of the Scoobies, unlike if a guy tried to rape “Willow” who lacks Buffy’s physical strength and speed. It’s like Xander complaining about a girl sexually assaulting him which I guarantee will be met with laughter and twinkling eyes.
- I’ll always love Willow’s Oreo analogy and Xander’s “the skin is the best part” argument.
- For a loser who gets beaten and bullied, Xander doesn’t shy away from throwing comebacks. Maybe because Cameron isn’t that threatening. But Xander didn’t fear Larry as well and we know that Larry used to beat up Xander a lot. Then why suddenly Xander shivers and trembles in front of Jack in The Zeppo?
- I’ve noticed Cordelia being used to sketch the demons in this episode and an earlier one. I wish the show acknowledged that she has a talent in drawing and it could have been her thing.
- I love that small moment between Buffy and Giles when she says “from whence it came”
- “You ran like a woman.” “Practice running like a man.” When you have men and women preaching boys to be aggressive manly men associating strength and bravery to men and belittling women, of course, you’ll get insecure boys like Xander and Johnathan.
- Willow interrogating Johnathan was comedy gold! I just love her strong “didn’t you?” followed later by an unsure “didn’t you?” And those eyes when she comes close to Johnathan are fear-provoking and a sign that inside the shell of sweetness and insecurity there’s a stronger Willow waiting to be out – did I just make a pun? If so, it wasn’t intended.
- Snyder is a creepy, creepy man, isn’t he? I don’t know if we know his whole story. He seems to be on the Mayor’s side, knows about what lurks in the night, and is simply evil. I just wish there was an episode dedicated to him just so that I’ll know what his deal is.
- The most important scene in the episode, or at least the most remembered scene in the episode, is Xander in Speedo’s. It baffles me how someone as buff and fit as Xander is nothing but a loser – but Joss explains it in the commentary of Welcome to the Hellmouth, the network wants hot people. So, overweight Willow is out as well as an unattractive actor to play Xander.
- The whole scene is very enjoyable and not just because of Hot Xander in Speedo’s: we get Gage being Buffy’s groupie, the girls working over the mystery of the week together as equals and friends, Cordelia putting down Xander only to be smitten by his athlete body as he walks in, Willow being as smitten as Cordelia, Buffy’s “not under much” and adorable giggles, and Xander swimming in Jonathan’s urine.
- I knew that Gage was the guy from Prison Break, but I completely forgot they also got the lead from A Walk to Remember! The episode is packed with well-known faces.
- I love how NB’s shocked eyes are of a greenish color when Xander learns that the steroids are in the steam.
- I always hated the fate of the nurse. It’s gruesome.
- Giles’ face when Xander freaks out about turning into a fish is priceless! I love how offended NB’s tone of voice gets when he says to Cordelia, “And thank you SO much for your support.”
- That coach is basically inhuman. He turns his team into monsters, kills a nurse and throws a girl into the sewers to be raped. All for a freaking cup! I don’t really feel upset about his death.
- This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think I ever bought Cordelia’s speech to fake Fish Xander. It’s cute and sweet, but… it’s not Cordelia. It’s too sweet for Cordelia to say. At least at this stage of her development. This girl spent the entire episode making fun of Xander and putting him down and now suddenly she doesn’t mind dating his fish version? I can see Anya giving this speech, but not Cordelia.
- I don’t really get the show’s love for open-ended endings. This episode is probably the last to show us that. What’s the point of them? Marcie, the eggs from Teacher’s Pet and the Fish Guys will never return to threaten the Scoobies again. So, why?
- Go Fish is considered one of the weakest episodes for its unfortunate placement – right before the finale – it’s not an intense episode like Passion and I Only Have Eyes For You, which is what viewers except now that we’re close to the finale, and then there’s the unsatisfying, comedic way it deals with important issues like sexual assault, victim-blaming and gang rape.
- The episode talks about “pressure” – they say the word like 10 times in the episode - and it comes from different angles and hurts different people. Pressure on a successful team to keep winning, pressure on teachers to make sure important students get a passing grade, pressure on average boys to be aggressive and manly, pressure on girls from boys to put out, pressure on girls to keep their reputation untainted by dressing modestly and making sure they don’t “do it with the entire swim team.”
- I just love how a small town Sunnydale keeps getting bigger. This is so not a one Starbucks town.
- I’ve never really thought about the fact that swim teams aren’t considered as cool as football/baseball teams. Maybe it’s just Xander being jealous.
- Buffy does have a habit of being fooled by phonies. A couple of lines that reflect depth and maturity and you win her over. She would fall for that again with Parker in S4.
- As I said earlier, the episode mildly discusses the pressure on boys “to be men” and that if they’re not manly enough in the eyes of society then it is okay to make fun of them and bully them. Johnathan and Xander are not considered “manly,” which makes them an easy target for the swim team and Cordelia to bully them. The bullying and ridicule they face daily fills them with bitterness and resentment that create episodes like BB&B and Superstar. It’s interesting that both Xander and Johnathan chided Buffy for saving their life – having a girl save a boy from beating or humiliation makes that boy a more glaring target for extra bullying and mockery. Something Xander and Johnathan would desperately like to avoid.
- I’ve never really had a classmate subbing as a teacher before, but those kids are so well behaved in Willow’s class. I personally can’t buy it. Teachers already face hell from unruly students, especially in high school, so how is it that Willow is met with nothing but respect – leaving Gage aside, he wasn’t exactly that rude with Willow. In my first year teaching fourth graders, I’ve dealt with far worse than that.
- When Willow tells Xander and Cordelia about her encounter with Snyder, Xander starts being the voice of common people while Cordelia takes the opinion of the privileged. Xander, coming from a poor household and known as the school’s clown loser, obviously resents the special treatment the swim team is showered with. Cordelia, on the other hand, is from a wealthy family and the most popular cheerleader who always had it easy, which is why she’s siding with the “winners.”
- Now Buffy is getting bored with “depth” as Cameron rambles on and on about the ocean. And then she discovered that all that stuff about “no pressure” was nothing but bullshit. Cameron uses lines like “No pressure” and “Just talking” to, as Ross Geller puts, “I assume we’re looking for an answer more sophisticated than ‘to get you into bed’.”
- Buffy is blamed for her own sexual assault because of the way she dresses. I like that the episode’s tone condemns the slut shaming in a subtle way without making a big scene about it – which would have made it less realistic. Though it would have been awesome if the nurse came to Buffy’s defense with a witty one liner.
- While the swim team dudes are jerks, their situation saddens me not only because Snyder and their coach care more about winning than their wellbeing, but because they’ve been experimented on and turned into monsters without their consent. Just for a stupid cup! And this is more of the show criticism than the episode, but what about the boys’ parents? I know the show doesn’t seem to acknowledge that those students have parents, except for Buffy, but it’s just unrealistic how it glosses over the parents’ issue.
- I’m actually surprised Xander isn’t joining Buffy on her rant against the swim team. He was desperate to have her backing him up with his own rant earlier.
- I’ve seen a lot of fans complain about the Scoobies lack of a reaction to Buffy’s story, and while it’s a valid complaint, I guess researching the demon eating the insides of people is more important a task than listening to another “Buffy saved herself” story. Perhaps because Buffy is stronger than any guy in school it makes their attacks unthreatening in the eyes of the Scoobies, unlike if a guy tried to rape “Willow” who lacks Buffy’s physical strength and speed. It’s like Xander complaining about a girl sexually assaulting him which I guarantee will be met with laughter and twinkling eyes.
- I’ll always love Willow’s Oreo analogy and Xander’s “the skin is the best part” argument.
- For a loser who gets beaten and bullied, Xander doesn’t shy away from throwing comebacks. Maybe because Cameron isn’t that threatening. But Xander didn’t fear Larry as well and we know that Larry used to beat up Xander a lot. Then why suddenly Xander shivers and trembles in front of Jack in The Zeppo?
- I’ve noticed Cordelia being used to sketch the demons in this episode and an earlier one. I wish the show acknowledged that she has a talent in drawing and it could have been her thing.
- I love that small moment between Buffy and Giles when she says “from whence it came”
- “You ran like a woman.” “Practice running like a man.” When you have men and women preaching boys to be aggressive manly men associating strength and bravery to men and belittling women, of course, you’ll get insecure boys like Xander and Johnathan.
- Willow interrogating Johnathan was comedy gold! I just love her strong “didn’t you?” followed later by an unsure “didn’t you?” And those eyes when she comes close to Johnathan are fear-provoking and a sign that inside the shell of sweetness and insecurity there’s a stronger Willow waiting to be out – did I just make a pun? If so, it wasn’t intended.
- Snyder is a creepy, creepy man, isn’t he? I don’t know if we know his whole story. He seems to be on the Mayor’s side, knows about what lurks in the night, and is simply evil. I just wish there was an episode dedicated to him just so that I’ll know what his deal is.
- The most important scene in the episode, or at least the most remembered scene in the episode, is Xander in Speedo’s. It baffles me how someone as buff and fit as Xander is nothing but a loser – but Joss explains it in the commentary of Welcome to the Hellmouth, the network wants hot people. So, overweight Willow is out as well as an unattractive actor to play Xander.
- The whole scene is very enjoyable and not just because of Hot Xander in Speedo’s: we get Gage being Buffy’s groupie, the girls working over the mystery of the week together as equals and friends, Cordelia putting down Xander only to be smitten by his athlete body as he walks in, Willow being as smitten as Cordelia, Buffy’s “not under much” and adorable giggles, and Xander swimming in Jonathan’s urine.
- I knew that Gage was the guy from Prison Break, but I completely forgot they also got the lead from A Walk to Remember! The episode is packed with well-known faces.
- I love how NB’s shocked eyes are of a greenish color when Xander learns that the steroids are in the steam.
- I always hated the fate of the nurse. It’s gruesome.
- Giles’ face when Xander freaks out about turning into a fish is priceless! I love how offended NB’s tone of voice gets when he says to Cordelia, “And thank you SO much for your support.”
- That coach is basically inhuman. He turns his team into monsters, kills a nurse and throws a girl into the sewers to be raped. All for a freaking cup! I don’t really feel upset about his death.
- This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think I ever bought Cordelia’s speech to fake Fish Xander. It’s cute and sweet, but… it’s not Cordelia. It’s too sweet for Cordelia to say. At least at this stage of her development. This girl spent the entire episode making fun of Xander and putting him down and now suddenly she doesn’t mind dating his fish version? I can see Anya giving this speech, but not Cordelia.
- I don’t really get the show’s love for open-ended endings. This episode is probably the last to show us that. What’s the point of them? Marcie, the eggs from Teacher’s Pet and the Fish Guys will never return to threaten the Scoobies again. So, why?
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 26,460
That is the thing that makes the episode feel so disjointed. If it had occurred between Ted and Bad Eggs I think it would be viewed differently. As it was, it just felt like something you had to endure to get to the finale.sosa lola said:
Dolores
Professional sleeper
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2016
- Messages
- 163
I agree about the positioning - it was odd, just in the same way the Killed by Death being later on was odd. I think the writers wanted to give the impression that a lot of time had elapsed between Passion and the finale and that Buffy had time to come to terms with having to kill Angel. Perhaps they were trying to build up to a climax but it did seem disjointed and backfired a bit IMO.
Jack is kind of more menacing though, like the other guys are just jocks.
I feel like it's supposed to be a way of saying that it's never really over. The good guys "win" but not really, the bad stuff might always come back... dun dun duuuun... Of course they don't. But they could. 🙂
(or it's a way of saying - do your job better Buffy! Check for eggs, keep your ears open for invisible people swishing around and get a harpoon and go chase some fish guys in the sea... Then again, probably not.)
Agree. This really is just a filler before you get to the finale. I think I might've liked it better if the placing had been different.
thrasherpix
Scooby
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
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- Age
- 43
I saw the POTN review, and he claimed Buffy saying "Boys really love their coach" as saying the monsters were gangraping him. I have to admit that went over my head, I thought it was Buffy being snarky, and that the boys were ripping him to shreds in revenge for being turned into monsters. I still don't know which to believe, my original impression, or POTN impression.
Thought I'd point this thread out that asks about Snyder's background...I gave a summary of a non-canon book which featured Snyder's childhood:
Speculation on Principal Snyder's background.
As for the open endings, those seemed to be popular for awhile back then. Along with heroin chic that also afflicted the Buffy series, I never got the appeal.
Thought I'd point this thread out that asks about Snyder's background...I gave a summary of a non-canon book which featured Snyder's childhood:
Speculation on Principal Snyder's background.
As for the open endings, those seemed to be popular for awhile back then. Along with heroin chic that also afflicted the Buffy series, I never got the appeal.