Discussion of Buffy 10.11 "Love Dares You, Part I" - Released 1/21/15 (Dark Horse)

Buffy Summers

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Writer: Christos Gage and Nicholas Brendon Penciller: Megan Levens

With the magical side of things momentarily under control, Buffy and crew have a chance to deal with their personal lives: things heat up between Xander and Dawn, young Giles is visited by an old flame, Andrew introduces some new friends, and the Slayer is totally set for round one of speed dating! Then the bad guy shows up.

Source: Wikipedia
 
So Buffy really grabs and kisses Spike? There's no doubt that it's real? There's no way it could be revealed to be a fantasy in the next issue? And he's as surprised as we are?

Wow, that's really...disappointing. What I liked most about the writing on Buffy was the subtlety of the dialogue and the terrific plot twists and most of all, the complex characters who never did what you expected them to do.

Buffy just up and deciding Spike's the one and then grabbing him without caring how Spike feels seems so...I dunno...artless and literal and so much like her actions in Season Six all over again. Like she's still using Spike for her own selfish needs and hasn't learned anything at all. Damn.

It's obvious Spike will reject her advances in Issue #12 and Dylan will probably be introduced - and it looks like there won't be much subtext or plot twists here. I'm just surprised that they're literally having her kiss him in such an obvious way so he can predictably reject her.

No matter what you may think of it, the relationship between Buffy and Spike is too complex - too deep - for such a shallow storyline. I mean, the "moral" of this story feels telegraphed in advance so that Buffy can learn a valuable lesson - like an ABC Afterschool Special. The television show was never this corny. Oh, well.

The rest of the Scoobies - so sad! Gotta run...more thoughts later...
 
I liked it, OK? It was not a perfect issue but it was entertaining, interesting and packed to the brim with cool shit! So let's go!

Buffy and speed dating - all in all pretty funny stuff in my opinion, I like the nod to season 8, the tumblrtards funnies and hey, vampire erections? It's a good question and not just because I asked it. Also, what in the hell is Buffy wearing? I know, there were times when Buffy's fashion choices were extravagant to say the least but this rosy monstrosity of a dress she's wearing here is really pushing it.

Xander and Dawn. Look, I love "Princess Bride" as much as the next guy but Xander and Dawn are getting seriously repetitive and obnoxious! And mostly Xander. I'm with Anya's apparition on this. Speaking of Anya - this issue and particularly her scene with the kittens made me realize something. I miss Anya. I don't want her to come back from the dead full time as she earned her rest plus there's already enough characters in this comic but damn, I still miss her. Anya added something unique and special to BtVS and her death truly left a void.

Willow. I loved Willow's segment, I think that it was the most interesting part of the issue. First of all, there's the whole absurdity of dating a snake. There aren't many franchises that can play it straight - well, OK, there's Monster Girl Quest and some other Japanese stuff but anyway, it's not easy to build something genuine on such foundation and I feel that the writers managed just fine here. Yes, Aluwyn is a chaos demon snake lady thing with tits ( and by the way, why do you even have tits Ms Vasuki? You're a snake, you're not a mammal you don't need...OK, OK, I stop now ) a wiccan house party makes sense, as does the pile of heart-shaped pillows to lounge on with Willow ( 😛 ) I mean, it's not like she can sit in a chair. But seriously, about the trust thing. It echoes back to the conversation Buffy and Xander had in "Seeing Red":

Buffy: You fought side by side with him when I was gone. You let him take care of Dawn-
Xander: But I never forgot what he really is.

Similarly, Willow doesn't forget what Aluwyn is and what she is a...yes, a snake, get over it already. Like Willow says, Aluwyn's a trickster. A deceiver. It's the essence of her being. For Willow to be able to trust her snake, the snake would have to overcome and act against her own nature. Is it possible? Is it even fair to expect that? Interesting stuff right here and really complicated, especially for Willow - as long as she cannot trust Saga she cannot even talk about these issues with her. It seems to me that Aluwyn will have to prove her trustworthiness to Willow, otherwise I can't see this relationship surviving. Oh, and liked Willow's dress, kinda goth-y but come on, she is a witch after all, also, nice delts and collarbones! What? Collarbones are sexy.

Giles. What can I say? New life. New body. New city. Same old wanker. Maybe he'll get what he wants, what with that asclepian vial lying around. The pedophile line - gold! Also, the insight into Giles' relationship with Olivia was pretty interesting, it's something that I think deserved to be explored more thoroughly in the TV series. Good job.

And for better or worse, it's time to come back to Buffy. Holy shit, does Dawn drop some epic lines in this issue or what?! Look at this:

Dawn: I just don't get why you keep trying to force me to get back together with Xander when it doesn't feel right! You're my sister! You should be on my side!
Buffy: Why are there sides? I love you! I love Xander! He adores you, and you're great together! I just don't know why you're the only one who can't see that!

You do know what this is, right? See, Buffy's many things, turns out a bloody shipper is one of them! Oh yes, that's you shippers! You and your shipping! That's exactly how you act! You just got called out on your shit, feel shame! But guess what, it gets better!

Dawn: Have you ever given anyone a chance when there was half a shot at it working? Or only when they're unattainable? I swear Buffy. Sometimes I think you don't really want to be happy.

This shit right here! Hard hitting truth! I mean, yes, it's something we've known since at least "Conversations with Dead People", more than 10 years now but whatever, finally somebody said it out loud! Yes! Now, what happens next will get people all unnecessarily excited. Basically, Buffy and Spike go out to slay some shit together. They slay shit, make some ironically bad self-aware puns and...Buffy kisses Spike. Look, Buffy knows how Spike feels about her after overhearing his conversation with Xander in the previous issue so let's be honest, it's kinda eeky but if she's really in love with him, if she truly wants a relationship with him, if her feelings are 100% genuine - whatever, all is fair in love. Hope she finds happiness. Hey, maybe she'll even get laid this century? If they are not however then she's a thunder****. OK? At this point, after everything they've been through Spike doesn't deserve manipulation. Seriously Summers, don't screw this up.

What else? Yeah, yeah, Andrew came out, completely unsurprising, again, we've known since season 7, also, the sculptor guy can't be that scary if Andrew of all people can get rid off him. Twilight jokes - pretty low at this point but still, pop rocks up the arse? I admit, I chuckled. Jack Lalanne? Nice. One more thing - what's wrong with kitten hazard? Or eating them for that matter? Not that I would, being human and all that but hell, I eat animals. Lots of them in fact. If some law-abiding demons wish to dine on cat flesh they should be free to do so, gambling is fine too - if they pay taxes of course.

So yeah, it was a good issue, really. Honestly, I recommend it, go read it, it's good stuff.
 
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. First of all, there's the whole absurdity of dating a snake.

Similarly, Willow doesn't forget what Aluwyn is and what she is a...yes, a snake, get over it already. Like Willow says, Aluwyn's a trickster. A deceiver. It's the essence of her being. For Willow to be able to trust her snake, the snake would have to overcome and act against her own nature.

You have to remember, snakes have forked tongues. I'll let your dirty ol' mind figure out the ramifications of that bit of anatomy, but if Kennedy's pierced tongue was a turn on in Season 7...
 
You have to remember, snakes have forked tongues. I'll let your dirty ol' mind figure out the ramifications of that bit of anatomy, but if Kennedy's pierced tongue was a turn on in Season 7...

Oh yeah, Aluwyn's well equipped alright, no doubt about it, I mean, have you seen that rattle? It's just, I think that what Willow wants is an actual relationship - hence the trust issue. Yup, I'm a pervert.
 
The only thing this issue and the fan reaction to it demonstrates is the willingness of fans to disregard what actually makes character sense in lieu of shipping.

I'm sorry, Dawn's little talk is ridiculous. Who is she talking about? Riley? Buffy was happy with Riley. Riley was the one who wasn't content and he never said a word to her about it. Angel left her. Scott dumped her and was gay. Parker? She tried and got used. Riley? See above. Spike in S6? Surely you jest. Spike in S7? I do recall every one of the Scoobies, including Miss Pyromaniac, putting her off the idea. Xander? Whom she apparently 'fell for [all of about 3 issues before it was dropped]' before she knew of Dawn. And Willow agrees, though what Dawn says actually applies more to her. Again, laughable. I guess if they say it enough times it'll be true.

The whole thing is ripped from 150,000 Spuffy fanfics, the premise being that everything would have been fine if Buffy just got over herself. JFC, they have Spike rescuing kittens. It's an attempted rewrite of what happened on the show just the same as the retcon that Buffy and Angel were DESTINED2B and destroy everything and everyone, including Giles and the Council, knew about it. That was stupid. THIS is stupid. Inadvertently, it does introduce fandom to its own hypocrisy, which is always nice. It's indicative of how shallow the story is and will be that they're disregarding the complexities of Buffy/Spike, which actually could have been an interesting story, for fanfic tropes.

I guess it's just sad that they've finally turned Buffy Summers into everything Joss claimed he didn't want her to be. The joke about the Beschel Test in the last issue is surely that. Buffy doesn't have a storyline outside of Spike. In fact, she's more an extension of him than the other way around. 11 issues in and she has no storyline other than protecting the book (and failing miserably). Maybe that's the point. She's every bit the joke the Tumblrites suggest she's turned into in the dating scene.
 
No matter what you may think of it, the relationship between Buffy and Spike is too complex - too deep - for such a shallow storyline.

I said it before, I'll say it again. The only people who actually care about Buffy/Spike do not want deep or nuanced or complicated. They want Disney. Of course, there's another issue - sometimes what a Gordian Knot needs is a sword.

I'm sorry, Dawn's little talk is ridiculous.

Dawn's line simply references what Buffy says in "Conversations with Dead People" - Maybe that's part of it. I think there are people out there who'd make it. I just target the impossible ones with deadly accuracy. You may not like it, you may disagree with it but it's already in season 7 and it's what Buffy believes in.

And Willow agrees, though what Dawn says actually applies more to her.

In what way does it apply to Willow? Seriously, I'm drawing a blank here.

Buffy doesn't have a storyline outside of Spike.

True.
 
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I liked the issue. Some good setup for the next arc ! My favourite issues this season are ones that Nicky has co-written and this was no exception. My favourite scenes are the Xander and Anya conversation, Spike, Xander and the kittens and Willow and Aluwyn. I love that Spike has a job and I'm intrigued by the Sculptor. This series has me nicely hooked.
 
I said it before, I'll say it again. The only people who actually care about Buffy/Spike do not want deep or nuanced or complicated. They want Disney. Of course, there's another issue - sometimes what a Gordian Knot needs is a sword.

Don't disagree there. That's why I mentioned the premise being the same as so many Spuffy fics. As I said, it's nothing new to these books since they've plodded out so many tropes of various groups throughout their run. That doesn't make it good.

Dawn's line simply references what Buffy says in "Conversations with Dead People" - Maybe that's part of it. I think there are people out there who'd make it. I just target the impossible ones with deadly accuracy. You may not like it, you may disagree with it but it's already in season 7 and it's what Buffy believes in.

That's what Buffy feared in CWDP. There were, however, 15 episodes after that which culminated in the Cookie Dough speech, which while corny, left her accepting that her past relationships didn't work because they weren't meant to, that it wasn't her fault, and she should just let things happen if they do. You don't even need to extend it that far, the idea that she doesn't have the patent on failed relationships is there in that very episode. That's all moot because it's not translatable here, though. Again, what relationships are Dawn and Willow referring to? There are none. It reads as a subtle restatement of the good guy angle.

In what way does it apply to Willow? Seriously, I'm drawing a blank here.

Willow wanted Xander knowing he wasn't interested. Then there's the whole Kennedy-Saga triangle. With Kennedy, she wanted Saga. Now she's free, they're in the same dimension, and there are no problems, she's 'unsure'. What happened to the person she was dating in S9, anyway? She has reason to be unsure of Saga(though I don't know why it's an issue now if it wasn't before), but Buffy sure had reasons to be unsure of Spike pre and post soul just the same. I'm not saying it works well with Willow, either, but if she's chucking stones from a glass house. As is Dawn-cheat-on-boyfriend-cause-i'm-scared-Summers. Point being, the narrative is over-simplifying quite a bit in order to attain this shallowness and assign all the blame on one party.


Yup. A third of the way through and Andrew has more of an arc and he's not even there half the time.
 
Not much drama in most of this issue- it was fun, with actually quite a lot of good characterisation.

I liked the Dawn/Xander stuff most of all because to me it seems the most sympathetic. I see both sides of the frustration/heartache. I'm not particularly liking Anya's snarky advice but at least its somewhat on the mark and Xander needs to hear it.

Man, Willow continues to impress. She's conflicted but at least she knows what she's conflicted about. She's nailed her own problem with Aluwyn- she's changed and perhaps snake-lady isn't what she needs right now, maybe it wouldn't be a healthy relationship since Willow can't trust her. This type of sensible, adult self-analytical thinking is clearly lost on Buffy.
Go Willow, you contine to be one of the best characters in the comic right now (even though you're not doing that much...)- maybe you should hook up with Faith and leave the rest to their soap opera bullsh**? 🙂

The Spike on his own stuff was pretty good, we got to see him acting as consultant in a believable way. I was surprised to say that I really liked this and wouldn't mind seeing a lot more of the same, although him resuing the kittens seemed like something pulled out of fan-fic.
'Spike is so good he now rescue's kittens from poker games' was like a lame mirror to the classic 'Dude, you just rescued a puppy!' moment from Angel, but whatever- it didn't bother me that much.

So, Andrew came out...again it wasn't exactly a surprise, but the dialogue was at least witty enough for geek speak.
Also one of the Big Bad's of the season attacks and then gets driven off when Andrew throws something at it. *sigh* so much for that hint of danger. 🙄

Giles/Olivia was interesting, with a lot of spot-on dialogue that marked a lot of this issue. Giles knows what he wants (a bit like Xander's situation in that way) he just can't get it for a few more years. We get some clafication of his relationship with Olivia with fits with what we know. There was a nice, little bit of heartache about Giles situation. Can we do something else with him now please?


And Buffy...I liked Buffy speed-dating, that was very in character.
Dawn's speech to her was in a couple of ways spot on though it really only applies to Buffy's relationship with Spike (and perhaps at a stretch Riley). After Angel Buffy seems to be in this place where she really only wants things that she can't have (like Angel) so she ends up settling.

And Buffy's solution is to take a look at what's out there (see the speed-dating), shrug her shoulders and then settle for Spike. Spike is her new Riley- or perhaps like Xander from S8. Buffy is lonely and fed up with being dateless so she latches onto the first reasonable prospect.

I think if I were a Spuffy fan I'd be supremely pissed at what this would do to Spike, but the more this season goes on it seems like the goal is to make Buffy a less and less likeable character so others look great by comparison. The writers seem to be content to ignore the complex Spike/Buffy issues in favour of fanservice.
At this moment in time it saddens me to sad that Spike could do better than settling for being Buffy's boyfriend of convienience and should go and find somebody who wouldn't mess with his head so much.

I predict that Spike rejects her kiss, then Dylan comes along, Buffy sulks from percieved rejection ('missing her chance' *gasp*) and at some other point Spike needs help with something (the upcoming Buffy/Spike mindwalk) and Buffy has to suck up her pride and help him out.
And so the yawnathon of Spuffy will roll on for another season because doubtless Dylan won't last and we'll be back to the 'will they/won't they' just in time for some sort of Buffy/Angel crossover.

But all in all one of the better efforts and a nice set up for the coming arc.
 
Go Willow, you contine to be one of the best characters in the comic right now (even though you're not doing that much...)

Willow's writing the rules of magic - that's probably the most important thing anybody in both BtVS and A&F is doing right now. Thing is, the comic is not showing it at all and well, I'm kinda glad because it's just more lore and that's boring. Man, this whole book with magic rules thing is such a completely asinine idea, I mean, do they really think that we care about unicorns and gnomes and all that shit? Sure, somebody will probably do something interesting with it in the future but it's been pretty lame so far, also it's getting repetitive already. I mean, how many times can the forces of evil ™ steal this stupid book anyway?

And so the yawnathon of Spuffy will roll on for another season because doubtless Dylan won't last and we'll be back to the 'will they/won't they' just in time for some sort of Buffy/Angel crossover.

Personally, I still hope for a conclusion. Preferably one that will produce enough Spuffy tears and salt to make a lake and a beach for me to lounge on and gloat. Don't get me wrong though, other options are perfectly fine too.

What happened to the person she was dating in S9, anyway?

In my opinion she was a prostitute. I know that Willow says girlfriend but let's be honest here, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it's probably not a stork.

Willow wanted Xander knowing he wasn't interested. Then there's the whole Kennedy-Saga triangle. With Kennedy, she wanted Saga. Now she's free, they're in the same dimension, and there are no problems, she's 'unsure'. What happened to the person she was dating in S9, anyway? She has reason to be unsure of Saga(though I don't know why it's an issue now if it wasn't before), but Buffy sure had reasons to be unsure of Spike pre and post soul just the same. I'm not saying it works well with Willow, either, but if she's chucking stones from a glass house. As is Dawn-cheat-on-boyfriend-cause-i'm-scared-Summers. Point being, the narrative is over-simplifying quite a bit in order to attain this shallowness and assign all the blame on one party.

Personally, I don't see it. Sure, Willow goes through her share of relationship issues, breakups and whatnot but most of the time she's got a good thing going on for her. Her latest girlfriend is no exception. Aluwyn is a snake demon - think "Reptile Boy" and "Shadow". That's about as extreme as it gets in BtVS and Willow's relationship with her is still healthier, for Willow at least ( well, OK, the snake does seem pretty satisfied as well ) than just about anything Buffy's ever had. No abuse and no sex leads to badness garbage, plus the scaled one seems pretty loyal - it's their 3rd season together. It's pretty crazy.

She has reason to be unsure of Saga(though I don't know why it's an issue now if it wasn't before)

I think that her relationship with Aluwyn got more serious.

That's what Buffy feared in CWDP. There were, however, 15 episodes after that which culminated in the Cookie Dough speech, which while corny, left her accepting that her past relationships didn't work because they weren't meant to, that it wasn't her fault, and she should just let things happen if they do. You don't even need to extend it that far, the idea that she doesn't have the patent on failed relationships is there in that very episode.

But then season 8 happened and these issues came back like a boomerang ( "A Beautiful Sunset" ) I don't like it because it demolishes Buffy's season 7 character development but it's not like they can just ignore it.
 
Personally, I don't see it. Sure, Willow goes through her share of relationship issues, breakups and whatnot but most of the time she's got a good thing going on for her. Her latest girlfriend is no exception. Aluwyn is a snake demon - think "Reptile Boy" and "Shadow". That's about as extreme as it gets in BtVS and Willow's relationship with her is still healthier, for Willow at least ( well, OK, the snake does seem pretty satisfied as well ) than just about anything Buffy's ever had. No abuse and no sex leads to badness garbage, plus the scaled one seems pretty loyal - it's their 3rd season together. It's pretty crazy.

I'm not saying it makes sense, just that it makes sense a lot more than saying Buffy refuses to let herself be happy or chooses anything but the attainable. Truth is both their relationships are rather fraught with mitigating extraordinary circumstances.

But then season 8 happened and these issues came back like a boomerang ( "A Beautiful Sunset" ) I don't like it because it demolishes Buffy's season 7 character development but it's not like they can just ignore it.

Sure, they can. As you point out, they ignored the character growth of S7 for S8. They ignored quite a bit of characterization for S8. They never dealt with the ILY from Chosen or Andrew's funny plan with the Immortal, Satsu, they ignored that she apparently never cared enough to even look for him after LA and the list continues. What's even more funny is their rationale for Buffy sleeping with Satsu was when she gets lonely she takes whatever is around (which didn't make sense) and now they're claiming the opposite, which doesn't make sense, either.

It's just a case of writing in reverse. They want to put Buffy and Spike together with Spike having the power in the ship so they construct this fabricated rationale for it. Both Spuffies and Bangels seem to agree the whole thing will end up with Spike rejecting her. That's pretty telling.

To what end? Who knows. My suspicion is they'll have her throw herself at someone after and it'll end badly.
 
Maybe she'll throw herself at Faith so all the Fuffies can finally get their turn at bat.

Usually I couldn't see this given the context of what we've been shown about their relationship- it would come thundering out of nowhere (just like Spuffy in this season actually)- but given the craziness Buffy's character right now then we can't rule it out.
If they did the writers would again be ignoring layers of complexity, history and personality and putting them aside just to pander to a different fanbase.

I actually hope it doesn't happen, better that something doesn't come to pass rather it happening and being badly written.
 
Usually I couldn't see this given the context of what we've been shown about their relationship- it would come thundering out of nowhere (just like Spuffy in this season actually)- but given the craziness Buffy's character right now then we can't rule it out.
If they did the writers would again be ignoring layers of complexity, history and personality and putting them aside just to pander to a different fanbase.

I actually hope it doesn't happen, better that something doesn't come to pass rather it happening and being badly written.

Who knows? It could turn out to be the epic romance of the entire post television series, with each girl getting something from the other that they've always lacked. Faith could get a real home and family, and Buffy could get a little fun and laughter, that "celebrating life" thing that's been mentioned a time or two around here lately.

Course, we both know it just ain't gonna happen...
 
thetopher
thetopher
Agreed, sadly. It's too risky a thing for these writers.
To what end? Who knows. My suspicion is they'll have her throw herself at someone after and it'll end badly.

I thought about it for a bit and I couldn't even find a candidate for that someone. A new character? They would introduce them already. Angel and Faith are in Old Blighty and in their own book - not available. Dowling thing was concluded. Xander was done in season 8. Giles is like twelve. Riley is married. Willow is in a relationship. Andrew is gay. I think that Buffy will just resort to some excessive sulking. Oh well, we'll find out soon enough.

it would come thundering out of nowhere (just like Spuffy in this season actually)

Yeah, nobody's vocal about it but it's true, what with all the season 9 stuff.
 
Just read the issue. Not really crazy about the art, and, believe it or not, I'm not really all that thrilled about the circumstances surrounding the Buffy/Spike kiss. It puts me in mind of the same thing in the Bronze at the end of "Tabula Rasa" and I really don't want this, if there actually IS a "this" this time around, to go down that path again.

On a different note, Andrew, after drinking the potion, comments that he still feels like "before" Chris Evans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the time line for Season 10 supposed to be BEFORE the release of "Captain America The First Avenger " (2011)?

Course, they had Buffy daydreaming about Craig Daniels, would have been a total unknown at the time as well.
 
On a different note, Andrew, after drinking the potion, comments that he still feels like "before" Chris Evans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the time line for Season 10 supposed to be BEFORE the release of "Captain America The First Avenger " (2011)?

Course, they had Buffy daydreaming about Craig Daniels, would have been a total unknown at the time as well.

I just tend to expalain it away like this- Buffy's world is exactly like ours except for two things; Magic and all the mosters stuff is real (plus all that high technology that exists) and pop culture is exactly the same only a few years more advanced so that all the reference jokes can work.

Although to be honest, Buffy was never that big on naming current pop culture trends- it was all clever word play, inventing its own teen speak and the geek/pop culture references were of the past.
It very rarely made 'of the time' in-jokes and those that they did do tend to date ithe show the most. An example is Buffy referencing James Spader in the very first episode when she's taking Cordelia's 'popularity quiz' ('He needs to call me!').
 
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