Does Buffy ever found out?

[jKpink]

Hi, I'm new so not sure if this is the right place for this question but here it goes...

Does Buffy ever finds outr about what happenned in "I will remember you"? I mean, if Angel ever told her, in the comics or whatever, I couldn't read them all yet.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Hi! Welcome to the boards. Love your avatar 😀

No, Buffy never found out about the events of IWRY, not even in the comics. I think Faith knows - she's the only person alive who does.

 

[Zenseem]

I think Faith knows - she's the only person alive who does.

Damn, right in the feels.

And welcome to the boards 🙂

 

[white avenger]

I think Faith knows

I thought that Wes was the only one that Angel ever told about that. When did he tell Faith, and, for that matter, why? That's not something that would come up in any sort of normal conversation.

 

[thetopher]

Prison visit. Angel and Faith have a connection. Angel told Doyle so he very well might, especially after Buffy dies, tell Faith all about the Oracles and the lost day and his choice and so forth.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Guy]

I thought that Wes was the only one that Angel ever told about that. When did he tell Faith, and, for that matter, why? That's not something that would come up in any sort of normal conversation.

Angel told Doyle, and Doyle told Cordy. I don't think Wesley ever knew, but I could be wrong about that.

Angel told Faith in the comics.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the comics. A LOT of spoilers

 

[white avenger]

Angel told Faith in the comics

Okay. I wasn't even thinking about the comics.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Nope. Buffy never found out about the events of IWRY and I had no idea Faith found out until I came into this thread.
That would make Faith the only one alive in the present who knows.

I thought that Wes was the only one that Angel ever told about that

When did he tell Wes?

 

[BibliophileAnn]

It is a good thing Buffy doesn't know what Angel did. It would be painful for Buffy to know the events of the day she angel had with him human and mad that he took it away. Not to mention Angel making a decision that affected the both of them without talking to her about it first.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

It is a good thing Buffy doesn't know what Angel did. It would be painful for Buffy to know the events of the day she angel had with him human and mad that he took it away. Not to mention Angel making a decision that affected the both of them without talking to her about it first.

I'm baffled at how this view seems somewhat popular.
I view it as one of Angel's most unselfish decisions in either series.

If Angel had taken something from Buffy it was the chance of her being held back in life by the prospect of 'what could have been?' caused by the knowledge that she could have had a "normal" relationship with him as a human.

There was no future for them together regardless of his species which he was well aware of. He told her he'd be a liability to her because he relies so much on his supernatural advantages that without them he's a sitting duck. I don't doubt he also foresaw that she'd come to resent that she'd be more his babysitter than his girlfriend.
I've read some C/A fanfics that capture this basic idea of his coming to be held back by Buffy & the Scoobs in Sunnydale post season 3 quite well without him even having the disadvantage of being human.

A fraction of the decision to erase the events was to save Buffy's life. There were three parts to it, the other two were:
- He didn't want to abandon LA, a city just as in need of a protector as Sunnydale.
- He wanted his own cause, to earn such a divine gift as renewed humanity (we also saw this guilt complex in 'In the Dark'). Legitimate redemption, not just a profound accident.

 

[LilahFan]

I've read that "You're Welcome" was originally supposed to have Buffy but she couldn't do the episode. Maybe this would have been brought up had she did though.

 

[Angel6]

It is a good thing Buffy doesn't know what Angel did. It would be painful for Buffy to know the events of the day she angel had with him human and mad that he took it away. Not to mention Angel making a decision that affected the both of them without talking to her about it first.

I sort of agree, but I think he knew in his heart it was the best thing for her, and if he went back and spoke to her about it she’d convince him he was wrong, because he wanted to be wrong. I think it’s the bravest and most heroic thing he could ever do, and there’s a lot of competition for that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel's masculinity drove him to it, thus he found flimsy excuses to justify his decision. If he would have discussed it with Buffy she would have told him how wrong he was.

 

[white avenger]

Angel's masculinity drove him to it, thus he found flimsy excuses to justify his decision. If he would have discussed it with Buffy she would have told him how wrong he was.

I think that it's more than simple masculinity, or, maybe, masculinity carried to its extreme. By the end of the series, Angel is depicted as pretty much the Alpha Male of the Buffyverse. He's the hero, full blown, with no superior or even equal. He makes the decisions, and never questions that everyone else will fall in line behind him ( witness the difference between the way that Buffy handled her mutiny in Season 7 and Angel handling the similar situation the next year) This is both his greatest strength and his ultimate weakness.

 

[famicommander]

It's a cowardly decision by Angel in my opinion. It diminishes the accomplishments of the rest of the human characters. Xander, Riley, Samantha, Giles, Wesley, and Gunn all have some pretty gnarly demon kills under their belts just in terms of physical combat. To say nothing of the magical accomplishments of Giles, Wes, and Willow.

Why couldn't Angel learn to fight as a human like Gunn, Xander, Riley, or Giles? Why couldn't he learn magic like Willow, Tara, Giles, or Wes? Why can't he contribute with his fantastic detective skills? He acts like the only his only assets are his vampire abilities. He mopes about like he can't fight evil without his powers, when he's surrounded by people who do just that.

 

[white avenger]

Why couldn't Angel learn to fight as a human like Gunn, Xander, Riley, or Giles? Why couldn't he learn magic like Willow, Tara, Giles, or Wes? Why can't he contribute with his fantastic detective skills? He acts like the only his only assets are his vampire abilities. He mopes about like he can't fight evil without his powers, when he's surrounded by people who do just that.

Learning to fight as a human would have taken time, perhaps years, to accomplish, and Angel either could not, or would not, spend the time away from the action long enough to do so.

Being truly adept in magic, beyond the simplest of spells, apparently requires a certain natural ability in the Buffyverse that Angel doesn't seem to have, And again, proficiency would require at least as much time as acquiring fighting skills, and Angel doesn't want to wait that long.

"Fantastic detective skills?" His main contribution to Angel Detective Agency was giving orders and providing muscle. Wes, Fred, and Cordy did all the research and analysis.

Angel "mopes about like he can't fight evil without his powers, when he's surrounded by people who do just that," because, basically, it's the truth. As a human, Gunn could beat him easily in any sort of fight, simply because Gunn has learned to fight without the enhanced strength and speed of a vampire. At best, Angel hasn't had to depend only on human abilities since he was Liam, and we aren't even sure hoe skilled a fighter he was then. At best, he would be several centuries out of practice, and would have had little or no experience in any sort of martial arts training from those days.

Ultimately, it might (and I repeat, MIGHT) be a simple question of ego. Angel has been the alpha male in his world for so long that he would be, at best, reluctant to step down from that position and have to depend on others in a fight.

 

[famicommander]

Learning to fight as a human would have taken time, perhaps years, to accomplish, and Angel either could not, or would not, spend the time away from the action long enough to do so.

Being truly adept in magic, beyond the simplest of spells, apparently requires a certain natural ability in the Buffyverse that Angel doesn't seem to have, And again, proficiency would require at least as much time as acquiring fighting skills, and Angel doesn't want to wait that long.

"Fantastic detective skills?" His main contribution to Angel Detective Agency was giving orders and providing muscle. Wes, Fred, and Cordy did all the research and analysis.

Angel "mopes about like he can't fight evil without his powers, when he's surrounded by people who do just that," because, basically, it's the truth. As a human, Gunn could beat him easily in any sort of fight, simply because Gunn has learned to fight without the enhanced strength and speed of a vampire. At best, Angel hasn't had to depend only on human abilities since he was Liam, and we aren't even sure hoe skilled a fighter he was then. At best, he would be several centuries out of practice, and would have had little or no experience in any sort of martial arts training from those days.

Ultimately, it might (and I repeat, MIGHT) be a simple question of ego. Angel has been the alpha male in his world for so long that he would be, at best, reluctant to step down from that position and have to depend on others in a fight.

Xander, Dawn, Cordelia (pre-demon), Anya (post-demon), Oz (human form), Andrew, and Fred (pre-Illyria) all killed multiple demons in the series without any specific combat training.

You can't tell me Angel couldn't wake up as a human and be more effective than Andrew and Dawn and Anya.

Hell, in After the Fall he does exactly that. He's a human using artifacts and spells to mask his humanity and injuries to maintain the illusion he's still a vampire.

And Angel's observation and memory skills are clearly beneficial at many points throughout the series. He notices things nobody else does. He also performs his own spells as a vampire already, going as far back as his days in Sunnydale.

 

[white avenger]

QUOTE="famicommander, post: 1401309, member: 13959"]
You can't tell me Angel couldn't wake up as a human and be more effective than Andrew and Dawn and Anya.
[/QUOTE]

I can tell you exactly that, and back it up with more than 40 years' martial arts experience. Angel, suddenly becoming human, would be the equivalent of a top fighter who loses 75% of his strength and speed. The techniques that he depended on as a vampire wouldn't work as a human. He couldn't hit as hard or move as fast. We saw exactly that in the episode in question, when the Mora demon easily beat human Angel, whereas vampire Angel was able to kill it quickly. Yes, there are humans who are quite efficient demon fighters, such as Gunn and Xander, but they learned to fight within the limitations of their human capabilities, over time. They didn't start out with that skill. Angel never had to do that, because all of his demon fighting took place after he came to Sunnydale. Sure, he could have learned, eventually, but in the meantime, he saw himself as at best a liability to Buffy, and, at worst, the cause of her death.

Hell, in After the Fall he does exactly that. He's a human using artifacts and spells to mask his humanity and injuries to maintain the illusion he's still a vampire.

Which only further proves my point. It wasn't Angel's human skill that allowed him to fight like that, it was artifacts and spells, things that he didn't have in "I Will Remember You," and probably wouldn't have been able to obtain easily at that point in Los Angeles. Remember, all of his power in "After The Fall" came from things that he salvaged from the Wolfram & Hart offices and the assistance of a very powerful dragon. Once the magic was taken away, he was just plain old badly injured human Angel,

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@white avenger Also Buffy struggled in Helpless during the Cruciamentum when her slayer powers were stripped away from her.

Angel also isn't a "think of the bigger picture" kind of guy, he's more of a "someone needs help in the moment" kind of guy. His vampire abilities enable him to help people in the present in LA, he can't afford to take the time out to learn to fight a completely different way from how he has been for the past few centuries.

 

[white avenger]

Angel also isn't a "think of the bigger picture" kind of guy, he's more of a "someone needs help in the moment" kind of guy. His vampire abilities enable him to help people in the present in LA, he can't afford to take the time out to learn to fight a completely different way from how he has been for the past few centuries.

Right. Relearning how to fight would mean, at least temporarily, walking away from what he has taken on as a mission, "helping the helpless," and in a small way, atoning for the evil that Angelus did. He wouldn't have been willing to do that.