Empty Places

[bespangeled]

This has been a big topic lately, seeping into more than a few threads so I thought it would be interesting to talk about.

Was it the reckless plan?
Was it Buffy?
Was it the First?

My view - it was about Buffy, and it was the First.
There is no PLAN to object to - there is a target and a reason to go after that target. Buffy does not propose a full frontal assault - she says she is willing to talk strategies. So they aren't objecting to the plan - it is not reckless, it is non-existent.

BUFFY
No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.

The hard decision is the next target and why to go for it.

BUFFY
(grinning nervously, looks around) I—I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this— exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what— suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?

Giles responds - and it is not about a plan - it is about Buffy:

GILES
Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed.

But she didn't say that - she said sometimes it didn't feel like they were all watching her back, the way he told her earlier. Conflating not sure you have my back with she can't trust all of them is ridiculous - a move Giles would not have made in any other season. He's not generally petty, and even more he usually tries to make peace and not add fuel to the flame. He is pissed at her. This isn't about a plan - it's about Buffy. And it's, well, emotive language.


Anya attacks - this isn't about a plane - it's about Buffy

BUFFY
(looks around) Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. (Xander looks away) It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you.

ANYA
(calmly) And it's automatically you. (looks at Buffy) You really do think you're better than we are. But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

This was what Buffy had done every season. This was a much larger group but it's how she managed to defeat each Big Bad.

Luckier?

It's didn't really seem like a lucky legacy. The entire show is about the pain and sacrifices she has had to make because of this legacy. This is not to say others weren't hurt, but she took the brunt of it.

As for Anya - she became a vengeance demon by choice and earlier in the season tore the hearts out of kids in a fraternity house. Buffy fought against - Buffy won - Anya realized her humanity. But still resents this.

Willow and Xander tell her they can't trust her judgment because they lost the last battle and Xander was hurt, and she didn't stay to play cards. That's not a plan. It's Buffy.

BUFFY
Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again.

There is no plan. She wants to hear ideas and strategies as usual, make a plan, deal with problems and make a better plan. This is what the scoobs have done every time they succeeded. Willing to plan strategies - just telling what the next target should be. This is when Giles, Willow and Xander get up and leave the room and talk strategies....uhm...nope.

They vote out Buffy and take Faith.
There was no plan to object to.

BUFFY
I can't watch you just throw away everything that— (looks at Xander and at Dawn, who's not meeting her glance; Buffy holds her head up high) I know I'm right about this. I just need a little— I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.


DAWN
(stands, walks up to Buffy, softly) Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.

Faith was a slayer for a short time in Boston - was on the run - was a slayer for a short time in Sunnydale - went rogue and started killing people - went to jail. I love Faith - but she has nowhere near the experience as a slayer that Buffy has. Maybe a full year in total - less time then she spent killing and in prison overall. One on one - watching her against Angelus - fantastic. But that is a way different job than leading a large group into battle, like the battle against the mayor. In fact, it was Wesley leading Faith - he planned and she fought. Faith has no plan. This isn't about any plan. No one has a plan.

Buffy knew Sunnydale, she knew the First, she was the one who took all the punches and got all the info she could before getting knocked out. She took down the Turok-han to give the potentials faith in their abilities. She survived Caleb, and figured out that he was holding something critically important. She made the plans that kept them alive for 7 years. Faith had arrived a few days earlier, had never met Caleb, and had no real experience as the leader of an army.

FAITH
(concerned) Hey. Look, I swear I didn't want it to go this way—


BUFFY
(sternly) Don't.


FAITH
I mean it, I—


BUFFY
Don't...be afraid to lead them. (Buffy's face is wet with tears) Whether you wanted it or not, their lives are yours. It's only gonna get harder. Protect them, (looks at Faith) but lead them.

No plan to object to. Faith did not want this to happen and knows she isn't ready. Just everyone pissed off at Buffy for not being exactly what each person needed - for going into battle and losing, for Xander being injured, for listening to Giles and getting serious as he demanded a few episodes earlier. For not trusting Giles and Wood anymore. For trying to hammer girls into an army, hand to hand combat relieves stress just as well as drinking and dancing at the Bronze. For everything she needs to do - and for not going around and asking each person what they wanted and needed from her.

FAITH
How safe were they when you dragged them off to meet Caleb? How safe was Rona or Amanda or Molly?

That's the issue.
That's what the First wants.

Now we see some homicidal cops and we know the First got to them - but we didn't see that scene, how they were each tempted. It seemed more like they just got pissed and ready to kill - wanted to kill.

I kinda find it hard to believe that the First can do this, and doesn't have a hand in what is going on in this house full of potentials and potential reasons for anger and fear. Yeah, Buffy has never had the greatest group communication skills - this is how she has always led, and had to be reined back by her friends. Buffy is being Buffy - at least Giles, Willow, and Xander should know that.

I'd kinda like to leave Spike out of this - he wasn't there. Not gonna happen, I know. Giles showed how much he didn't have Buffy's back when he distorted what she said. He showed that saying everyone is watching her back was really not true. Let's look at this conversation though because even Spike is not a part of any plan - this is all about Buffy again. But Spike is a tool of the First - he scares people, which is what the First wants - division, lack of trust, decisions like getting rid of a leader who has got them this far, and giving the job to a rookie in over her head. I don't blame Faith that she walked into a trap - neither did Buffy. It was the same trap Buffy had walked into, but she had already learned the lesson and Faith had to repeat it to learn it.

It really is kinda like season 3 - Buffy once again trusting a souled vamp who has done bad things when he was unsouled. The trigger is no longer an issue - it was broken. There's a lot of parallels here to to the intervention scene back in season 3 Revelations, when Buffy kept Angel a secret because she knew being open would be a problem.

She was open about her belief in Spike - didn't help. Oh, and yes - I have cherry picked the scenes to bolster my arguments. I think these scenes are relevant in what happened. I cut them down as much as I could. Anyone who wants to cherry pick - fine. Show me what I do not understand.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Buffy never explained to anyone what was going to make the next assault on the vineyard any different from the previous disastrous one. There was no indication that it was not going to be a "once more into the breach" type of assault that was guaranteed to get more of them killed in exchange for... what? There was no new information. There was only an assumption by Buffy that the bad guys go where the power is. That assumption had not been confirmed. Maybe Caleb was there because he liked the taste of merlot. Maybe the vineyard was on a bad guy lay line that he felt comfortable in. No one knew any weakness in Caleb that they hadn't known before. And there was no proof that the real threat wasn't from the Seal of Danthalzar. After all, it may have been left unguarded because it had such toxic mojo that no security detail was needed. After all, the seal may have been like a mystical Chernobyl - one place no army will try to capture because occupation means death.

Buffy tried an authoritarian, dogmatic approach and she couldn't sell it. If I had been there, I wouldn't have bought it either.

Looked at from the other end of the looking glass, if Buffy got her way she could have been responsible for setting in motion a plan that would wipe out any resistance from the slayer line and assure victory to the First after she led the next charge. As it was, she worked on her own, which is the situation she is most comfortable with, and Faith led the next assault, which was also a disaster - but Buffy found the scythe.

Looked at from any military standpoint, the idea of another assault on the vineyard was suicide for no discernible reason other than a hunch. The personality conflicts and relationship dramas do not figure into this analysis. If the plan is bad or non-existent, who has who's back makes no difference. It's the Alamo all over again.

 

[bespangeled]

Buffy never explained to anyone what was going to make the next assault on the vineyard any different from the previous disastrous one. There was no indication that it was not going to be a "once more into the breach" type of assault that was guaranteed to get more of them killed in exchange for... what? There was no new information. There was only an assumption by Buffy that the bad guys go where the power is. That assumption had not been confirmed. Maybe Caleb was there because he liked the taste of merlot. Maybe the vineyard was on a bad guy lay line that he felt comfortable in. No one knew any weakness in Caleb that they hadn't known before. And there was no proof that the real threat wasn't from the Seal of Danthalzar. After all, it may have been left unguarded because it had such toxic mojo that no security detail was needed. After all, the seal may have been like a mystical Chernobyl - one place no army will try to capture because occupation means death.

So you agree there was no plan. The assumption may have been that there was going to be a full frontal attack but Buffy never said that.

Buffy tried an authoritarian, dogmatic approach and she couldn't sell it. If I had been there, I wouldn't have bought it either.

Agreed. Buffy was just as much a part of the debacle as anyone. But once again,this complaint is about Buffy and not a plan.

Looked at from any military standpoint, the idea of another assault on the vineyard was suicide for no discernible reason other than a hunch. The personality conflicts and relationship dramas do not figure into this analysis. If the plan is bad or non-existent, who has who's back makes no difference. It's the Alamo all over again.

Yes, agreed. But who has whose back is a factor in why the goal was never fully fleshed out into a plan. And that's where I think the First fits is, the reason everyone was so completely out of character.

 

[white avenger]

Everybody made mistakes here, there's no single person or action to blame. A lot of this could have been avoided, however, if Buffy had been sure of the support of her lieutenants (Willow, Xander, Giles, Faith, and Spike) before mentioning anything to the Potentials, Andrew, or Wood. She should have made sure that they understood what they were going to do. As has been pointed out, "We're going back to the vineyard" isn't a plan, it's a destination. What she intended to do after they got there would have been the plan, and we'll never know any part of Buffy's plan, because she was never given a chance to present it.

Quite possibly, her plan might have been quite similar to what she actually wound up doing. She would go into the wine cellar, probably with Spike as back up, while the others stayed outside as a rear guard. Buffy knew by that time that Caleb was stronger that she was, and she knew that they couldn't take him in a stand up fight, and it makes no sense whatsoever to think that she would repeat that same tactic a second time.

 

[bespangeled]

Everybody made mistakes here, there's no single person or action to blame.

Which is where I think the First is at least partly to blame. Given that this is what the First does, the only power the First has, it seems a reasonable explanation as to why everyone seemed so out of character. Like it affected the police officers, it can evidently magnify emotions.

The irony is that the First is then responsible for much of the blaming that goes on in fandom when it comes to that scene.

 

[white avenger]

Like it affected the police officers, it can evidently magnify emotions.

Also, it probably has the same limitation as a vampire. Both have to be invited in, the vampire by an invitation into one's home, and the First Evil by someone's angry or harmful thoughts. It was able to manipulate Wood by using his hatred for Spike, Faith by using her jealousy of Buffy, Willow by using her protective feelings for her injured friend, Xander by his feelings of anger over the first real injury that he had received in 7 years, Giles by his disapproval of his Slayer's new boyfriend, Buffy b her feelings that Giles had betrayed her, and Spike just because he's Spike, and loves a good fight.

Just think, all that ate and discontent could have been avoided by one great big ol' group hug.

 

[gite63]

Buffy started explaining which conclusion she had reached about the importance of the vineyard, and the next step would be to discuss strategies and make a plan - but Faith was very quick in dismissing her (even before Giles and his stupid commentary about windmills) - and she was very clear: "I don't think I want you playing the odds." This in front of an audience of young Potentials who would certainly back her up - and they did.

Neither of them stopped to think about what Buffy had just said - something very reasonable that should be taken in consideration (so much so that Caleb *was* protecting something), all of them seemed very eager to deny Buffy her leadership, to attack her, every one of them with their personal reasons.

 

[bespangeled]

Just think, all that ate and discontent could have been avoided by one great big ol' group hug.

Without knives and stakes. 😀

So if it was the First instigating, how responsible are the various parties, including the potentials.
 

Both have to be invited in, the vampire by an invitation into one's home, and the First Evil by someone's angry or harmful thoughts. It was able to manipulate Wood by using his hatred for Spike, Faith by using her jealousy of Buffy, Willow by using her protective feelings for her injured friend, Xander by his feelings of anger over the first real injury that he had received in 7 years, Giles by his disapproval of his Slayer's new boyfriend, Buffy b her feelings that Giles had betrayed her, and Spike just because he's Spike, and loves a good fight

Not sure I agree about the invitation - but I do agree the First inflames resentments and angers that already existed. It has to be much easier then creating new ones. When it went after Angel it used both his past and his fear of hurting Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

So if it was the First instigating, how responsible are the various parties, including the potentials.

No more responsible than Spike had been when he killed all those people. The First Evil was manipulating each person's own individual trigger. Theirs just weren't as traumatic as William's.

 

[The Bronze]

I've just watched Dirty Girls and Empty places back to back. So much actually happened that I had to take notes to figure out what to post about on here!

So I think it's best to start with Dirty Girls and the failed vineyard attack. What led to it and how people were acting and thinking. The episode starts with Buffy and Wood speaking after his failed revenge mission. Buffy is prepared to look past it and move on and Wood finally figures out the mission is important. Buffy talks about not wanting to take the girls to war and Wood is talking her into giving them field experience.

Other side of town sees Willow and Faith in the hospital. Faith wants to bail and find Buffy. Willow strongly recommends waiting for her. Faith is very cavalier about the whole thing. Seemingly not bothered about what affect she might still have on the person she victimised.

Eventually Buffy gets the message that Caleb is in town and has something of hers. Buffy's plan is a full frontal assault hoping that the speed and force will take them by surprise. Giles is against the idea because of the lack of time to strategise. Xander, Spike and Willow all raise concerns about a trap. It's decided that Willow needs to stay back and protect the weakest.

Faith and Buffy go off to do recon. Faith says she likes the idea of jumping into the hornets nest. They find the place but then just turn around to get the troops! That's not recon! What's wrong with the pair of them? They have no idea what numbers are inside. At the house Xander is showing his support of Buffy. Rona doesn't want to be involved. Kennedy is desperate to get stuck in.

When Caleb shows up he knocks Buffy across the room and she hits her head hard. This leaves her out of action and gets everyone else off on the wrong foot. Much carnage follows. At some point during the mayhem a retreat order is issued and everyone heads off. However before that Spike got some hits on Caleb, so did Faith and finally Buffy knocked him across the room. If those 3 actually stayed and worked together then they would have killed Caleb right there.

So was the plan good? Not really. Obviously there was a trap somewhere as he goaded them. However time was a factor. Potentials were dying all the time. The town was evacuating. At some point a stand had to be made. If the recon was done properly then they'd have been better prepared. Also as a I say with the combined strength of Buffy, Spike and Faith they had the opportunity to kill Caleb.

Moving onto Empty Places and it's just full of people at their lowest which I think really goes to explain some of the awfulness at the end. Buffy, Willow and Xander are all devastated at the hospital but trying to be brave. Xander understands the importance of the mission and is as brave as ever letting Buffy get back to it.

A lot of people at the house get stuck into serious research. Once something turns up Giles decides to send away Spike and Andrew. He really shouldn't be making calls like this after going behind Buffy's back. Spike is his own man though and chose to go. Faith and Giles then decide to take the girls out on the lash. This is ridiculous. Giles a few weeks back wouldn't even allow people to joke in the house because of how serious things were. Now the whole damn town is running for the hills and he sanctions a party! Faith is the only powerful one in the group. The Bronze is wide open for crazed members of the public or agents of The First. She can't possibly keep and eye on a group that size while they're all spread out drinking and dancing.

Buffy confronts Faith about this but her criticism is very confused. Instead of my logical criticism above she talks about them being children and needing protection. Faith is right to point out that they're being asked to fight. Buffy is obviously torn by her desire to protect everyone and her realisation that it's not going to happen and they'll all be fighting.

So now the moment of truth. First up to make an awful decision and pitch is Buffy. Firstly you don't gather everyone around and drop your idea on them. Get the senior people together first and then tell the troops once things are finalised. She declares that she has discovered something and the plan is to go back. Awful wording. What she has is a theory, not a discovery and a location, not a plan.

Then Faith jumps in saying she's not going back. Robin is chiming in acting like an expert and official. He is completely out of line. He betrayed Buffy and the mission, knows nothing about Faith and had the idea of involving the girls in combat. His tone and involvement is so far out of line it's ridiculous. Faith and every other senior player should have stopped the meeting and took it somewhere private.

Giles completely twists Buffy's words. She implied that she couldn't trust him earlier. She was right. He flat out lied to her and tried to take a massive decision away from her while telling her how important her leadership was. She didn't say she couldn't trust the rest of them.

Kennedy is absolutely unbelievable. She shouts down Willow for always defending Buffy. We haven't seen that. Kennedy was fully on board with the original plan so a bit rich to make out it always feels like Buffy is reckless.

I can't believe Willow and Xander call out Buffy's judgement in front if everyone like that. I put it down to the terrible place they're in emotionally after what's happened. Any other time they stick together in front of a crowd like that and move to a private discussion.

Anya must be taking the piss! Calling Buffy lucky and not better than her? She's died twice trying to save the world and has had more traumatic events in her life than anyone else in that room. Lucky would be a person whose lack of a conscience earned them 3 stabs at a mortal life and a thousand year superpowerd party with absolutely no consequences for any of her actions. Staggering nonsense.

Kennedy and Rona then move to get Faith elected. Buffy then acts really childishly. She rants about Faiths reckless actions and her past. She's right about it but it's not the time. Faith then talks about can Buffy follow. That is her staking a claim for leadership. No one objects to this, which is nuts. Buffy barely has time to take this in before Dawn is up on her feet to throw Buffy out.

Rona insults Buffy on the way out. This is one of the most disgusting moments in the show. Rona showed up looking for Buffy and Buffy duly saved her life the first time she met her. She then puts her up in her home and continues fighting to protect her and the others for months. She could have left and tried her luck else where at any time but stayed because Buffy was providing the best option for her. Dawn tells her to shut up but I wish she'd have knocked her out.

 

[The Bronze]

Despite the length of that post I still don't think I covered everything that came to mind. Lots of people questioned who put Buffy in charge anyway. Well if we look back that would be all of them. Here are 3 quotes from Giles the last ever watcher abdicating all responsibility onto Buffy the moment he arrives with the potentials:

That's what it is. It has eternities to act, endless resources. (stands) How to defeat it—I-I— (sighs) honestly I don't know. But we have to find a way. If the slayer line is eliminated, then the hell mouth has no guardian. The balance is destroyed. (walks up to Buffy) I'm afraid it falls to you, Buffy. Sorry. I mean, we'll do what we can, but you're the only one who has the strength to protect these girls—and the world—against what's coming.

Sunset should be any minute now. Done everything we can. And don't worry, everyone here understands that you're calling the shots.

You have all my faith. And they're depending on you.

Then this is from Giles going on about the importance of Buffy leading while actively undermining her position:

It takes more than rousing speeches to lead, Buffy. If you're going to be a general, you need to be able to make difficult decisions regardless of cost.

It's time to stop playing the role of general, and start being one. (Buffy runs off; Giles calls after her) This is the way wars are won.

This is Xander declaring who is in charge:

Well, yeah, but only because you kinda told us to. You're our leader, Buffy, as in "follow the."

I can't go through and find quotes for everyone but you get the idea. It's also worth remembering that anyone who showed up at Buffy's house expecting food, shelter and her to risk her life for them is voting with their feet and accepting Buffy as leader. Which they're all fine with until they have to do something.

So after all that who comes out with any blame or credit for the whole mess:

Buffy - Pretty weak plan first of all to go straight for Caleb. Awful decision only to pay lip service to actual reconnaissance. In her favour though there's a ticking time bomb that not many of the others appreciate. She has seen the army of Turok-Han and Sunnydale is actually evacuating. If people in Sunnydale are feeling it then you know it's bad and close. They're current wait and see mantra is getting girls killed one at a time and putting no dent in the first. It also has to be noted that if her, Spike and Faith stayed and worked together against Caleb then the plan would have succeeded, even if the price was high.

She judges everything wrong when announcing her idea of going back. The wrong people are present, her use of language is poor and when she's caught by surprise her actions are childish. In her defence though she's obviously at a low point after losing girls and seeing her best friend maimed. Her plan isn't actually bad because we never get to hear it. Also I'd defy anyone to be able to stand in a room while your friends and family turn on you in favour of your abuser and be able to keep your cool.

Faith - No sign of remorse or even caring for her previous abuse of Buffy. Bit odd for someone trying to reform but at least she's trying to help. Taking the girls to The Bronze was a terrible idea. She's right for calling Buffy out about her changing stance on the girls. In the meeting she initially handles herself OK but should have been calling for a break. Her first thought to not take on leadership was right but she allows herself to become riled up and seize control. This is her chance to show some maturity, calm the situation and get things back on track. She fails miserably. At least she came out to apologise afterwards and accepts Buffy's advice.

Willow & Xander - They point out the likely hood of walking into a trap. They go with Buffy's idea anyway. In the second meeting they should have called it off straight away when things go south. Mitigating circumstances for both given the trauma Xander has just suffered.

Giles - Hates the original idea. Hates the idea of going back. So at least he's consistent there. His windmills thing is rubbish. If nothing else is at the vineyard then at least the enemy is. There is something there to fight, which will have to happen eventually, and possibly a bonus. His misrepresentation of Buffy rightfully not trusting him and projecting that onto everyone is awful. His decision to send Spike away after what he'd just done is incredibly dubious. Allowing Faith to take everyone out for a party after admonishing humour in the house is so hypocritical it's beyond belief.

Wood - He betrays the mission and Buffy for his vendetta. He then encourages Buffy to take girls into the fight. When the meeting comes around he's treating her like crap and acting as if he's in a position of authority and can't trust her judgement. Again I say this man is a complete ass!

Anya - Her speech is so hypocritical, delusional and removed from reality that her head really should have imploded.

Kennedy - I hate her here. She's been the best of the potentials thus far but is ridiculous here. She's been saying all along that she wants to be involved. She backs the original plan with great enthusiasm. Then in the meeting she jumps down Willows throat (who does she think she's talking to?) and then starts leading a coup. Disgraceful behaviour.

Dawn - Far too quick to throw Buffy out. This is what she's doing here. However I believe she's doing it with the best of intentions. She's putting the mission and group unity above her own feelings.

Rona - She hated the original plan and the new one. At least she's consistent. Her treatment of the person who has saved her life and provided her best option while she's been hunted down however is absolutely repulsive.

 

[white avenger]

If those 3 (Buffy, Spike, and Faith) actually stayed and worked together then they would have killed Caleb right there.

I've said this several times. The only reason that I can see something like that not happening is that it would have eliminated the single biggest threat too early in the Season. They killed off the champion ubervamp already. If they killed off Caleb in the same way, who would they have had left who was powerful enough to present any real threat?

First up to make an awful decision and pitch is Buffy. Firstly you don't gather everyone around and drop your idea on them. Get the senior people together first and then tell the troops once things are finalized. She declares that she has discovered something and the plan is to go back. Awful wording. What she has is a theory, not a discovery and a location, not a plan.

She judges everything wrong when announcing her idea of going back. The wrong people are present, her use of language is poor

When Buffy said that they were going back to the vineyard, and that was a destination, not a plan, and not part of any theory. The theory was about WHY they should return. The bad guys were massed around the most important thing, and that thing, whatever it was, was located in the vineyard, most likely in the wine cellar, but most definitely NOT around the hellmouth entrance/seal.

Also, returning to the vineyard doesn't necessarily mean a second frontal assault on the wine cellar, where they had fought Caleb. Whatever Buffy's actual, specific, plan was, she never got to reveal, because that's as far as the others let her get. Not letting her friends know in advance what she was about to do, so that they would be at least informed enough to support her was Buffy's first mistake in this matter, showing indecision, and then openly arguing with Faith was her second mistake, and letting herself be convinced to leave her own home because her little sister said that she couldn't be there was the third, and probably worst mistake of the night.

Why in the hell should she have to leave her home because a bunch of mostly uninvited guests suddenly decide that they didn't want to abide by her rules? They were free to leave at any time, there were, by then, plenty of vacant houses that they could have moved into, and if Dawn wanted to stay with the group, she should have been the one leaving with them, not telling Buffy "Then you can't be here."

Buffy - Pretty weak plan first of all to go straight for Caleb.

Initially going to the vineyard and into the wine cellar was a mistake in planning, or more accurately, lack thereof. Buffy had no idea what she would be confronting there. It could have been anything from another ubervamp and a couple of buddies for backup, or a couple of plain humans with assault rifles, either of which could have been potentially more disastrous than what Caleb did to them. Buffy got overconfident. She led a bunch of inexperienced children into an unknown situation, people were injured, and some even died. As tragic as that was, she obviously learned from the experience, and I am certain that, whatever her unknown plan might have been in returning, that knowledge would have played a large part in it.

It might also be noted that she also learned from the mutiny, because she is shown explaining in more detail what her final plan was in reopening and entering the hellmouth, rather than just saying, "We're hitting the hellmouth tomorrow morning. Eat a good breakfast, sharpen up your pointy sticks, and let's finish this dog and pony show."

 

[gite63]

Plus, Giles should have sent Faith, and not Spike, to the mission - being a vampire only delayed his return with an important piece of information.
 

No more responsible than Spike had been when he killed all those people. The First Evil was manipulating each person's own individual trigger. Theirs just weren't as traumatic as William's.

No, not in the same level, I don't think so. The "individual triggers" were the wolves they chose to feed, like Wood did when he chose to do the First's dirty work. But definitely, the Evil was having its party with those people.

 

[The Bronze]

Plus, Giles should have sent Faith, and not Spike, to the mission - being a vampire only delayed his return with an important piece of information.

I was thinking the same thing but then I'm not sure if Faith can drive / ride a bike.

 

[gite63]

I was thinking the same thing but then I'm not sure if Faith can drive / ride a bike.

Yeah, this is a good point. We never saw her driving a car, either. But then, I don't remember Willow driving before DG (I'm not sure if it was established that she knew how to drive or not), and then, in that episode, she did.

 

[white avenger]

Plus, Giles should have sent Faith, and not Spike, to the mission - being a vampire only delayed his return with an important piece of information.

I think that it had more to do with just getting Spike out of the house. I'm not saying that Giles was planning anything like what actually happened, but I do believe that he wanted a chance to talk to Buffy alone in order to try and make her understand why he had sided with Wood in trying to kill Spike. That in no way implies that there would have been any sort of apology forthcoming, because I have no doubt that Giles sincerely believed that he knew what was best in this matter, and it would not have been out of character for him to make one last attempt to make her "see reason" in the matter.

 

[bespangeled]

No, not in the same level, I don't think so. The "individual triggers" were the wolves they chose to feed, like Wood did when he chose to do the First's dirty work. But definitely, the Evil was having its party with those people.

Good point - conscious choice, not triggered

I was thinking the same thing but then I'm not sure if Faith can drive / ride a bike.

Faith can't ride a bike - she was driving one when she was teen.

I think that it had more to do with just getting Spike out of the house. I'm not saying that Giles was planning anything like what actually happened, but I do believe that he wanted a chance to talk to Buffy alone in order to try and make her understand why he had sided with Wood in trying to kill Spike. That in no way implies that there would have been any sort of apology forthcoming, because I have no doubt that Giles sincerely believed that he knew what was best in this matter, and it would not have been out of character for him to make one last attempt to make her "see reason" in the matter.

It also explains why he wanted Faith and the girls gone....wild

 

[gite63]

Faith was a slayer for a short time in Boston - was on the run - was a slayer for a short time in Sunnydale - went rogue and started killing people - went to jail. I love Faith - but she has nowhere near the experience as a slayer that Buffy has. Maybe a full year in total - less time then she spent killing and in prison overall. One on one - watching her against Angelus - fantastic. But that is a way different job than leading a large group into battle, like the battle against the mayor. In fact, it was Wesley leading Faith - he planned and she fought.

Watching Angel again, many things I didn't remembered: Faith arrives at Angel's Investigations shooting orders like she were The Boss - but soon enough, she walks into a trap and has his ass majorily kicked by the Beast; thankfully, Wes takes charge of the operation, manages to found out some information that leads to Angelus and uses her as a container for the Orpheus drug - a great idea, because, again, she gets in another fight she wouldn't win.

And then, she goes to Sunnydale, and in the first opportunity, takes the leadership from Buffy - she is the first person to cut Buffy short, making it clear - in front of an sugestable audience - that she won't follow the leader... Faithy (as Angelus would call her) was so out of her league...

 

[Spikeyspike]

Im watching it right now and it pisses me off. Esp. when Anya said the whole "you're not better than us, you were just lucky". Lucky? Lucky!? Yeah, Buffy has been really lucky the past 7 years. The slayer thing has done her real good. Look at the loss and the things she just won't be able to have? Her whole life would've been the opposite if it weren't for being the slayer. And let's not forget what she's done for all them year after year. I guess i can take the whole scene better into account considering that the First influences them. That their emotions are stronger. I do feel like they all rush into conclusion and take the opportunity to attack her because of personal issues. And lets not forget they all choose the be a part of the slayer gig. In season 1 Buffy said that SHE's the slayer and it would be too dangerous for them, but they wanted to tag along. Buffy is the slayer and she's the slayer that is responsible wih her powers unlike Faith. That makes her in charge. They all always immediately follow Buffy for a reason.