Question Fans: what are your thoughts on Joss Whedon now?

[danzalthar]

Patty Jenkins has just criticized Whedon's version of Justice League + accusations of bad behavior, racism and sexism on set + he's no longer involved with his HBO show The Nevers.

How do you guys see it all, specially the older fans? Could his career be heading to over? Any problems with appreciating his earlier work?

 

[The Ferg]

1. Of course Jenkins wasn't a fan of Whedon's JL. It was a complete departure from the tone that Snyder (and Jenkins, to a lesser extent) had already set. Her comments add nothing of value.

2. I think almost all of this "controversy" is bullshit.

3. It will be a real shame if he gets "cancelled" and never ends up making anything new.

 

[thrasherpix]

No change. I'm sure he's done some bad, but possibly more good than many who criticize him now, too.

And I won't believe anything without proof (though I'm sure he's no saint--just as many hypocrites drunk on their own self-righteousness aren't saints), and unless they can prove (not allege, PROVE) Joss was like Bill Cosby or a serial killer or something then I can't say it will make me uncomfortable with his works...though I have plenty of criticisms of his work as it is, though that's no big deal to me. Nobody's perfect and there are too many compromises he'd have to make, etc.

I do think it's likely he messed with Charisma for getting pregnant and that would bother me more about him than he he yelled at some people and was an egotistical jerk at times (which I think comes with the territory in such a high stress environment, heck, many who don't accomplish anything worthwhile or make stuff for us to enjoy and question ourselves in an engaging rather than alienating way are that way, too)

 

[The Bronze]

I can still enjoy art from people who've done worse than anything Joss is accused of. So no affect on my enjoyment of his shows.

If he's actually guilty of anything serious then he should face the consequences, same as anyone else. Also I feel it's important not to fall into the no smoke without fire trap. Produce evidence, chance to defend himself etc.

 

[Professor Walsh]

While I have enjoyed what I have seen of "Firefly" and "Angel", I am mostly a fan of BtVS. I have tried, at times, to be a good fan and become interested in Joss Whedon, but I have largely failed. I don't even know what controversy you are talking about, and I am not about to spend my lunch break googling it. (I suppose this is a truly "old fan answer". I am too old to bother.)

 

[gwenogjones]

I always found him objectionable and never had much time for him so the fact that people are now saying he is objectionable I just think 'yeah - that was obvious from all the interviews he ever gave'.
Of his work, I only like Buffy and Angel and truthfully Angel has some incredibly low points so Buffy is the only thing I enjoy with any consistency. A lot of people worked on Buffy, some of my least favourite things about the shows come direct from Joss and many of my favourite things are directly attributed to other people. And the scripts would never have worked without the performances to back them up. So I don't see any reason to stop enjoying Buffy just because a man who has been making my skin crawl for over twenty years is now recognised as being the type of man that makes your skin crawl - I already knew that.

 

[Priceless]

I enjoy the work of lots of people who are probably/possibly 'problematic' in real life. I enjoy the work of people who have done terrible things but get passes for it and have not yet not cancelled. No one is a saint and I can separate the art from the artist.

Saying that, I have yet to see any compelling evidence that Whedon is more sexist or racist than any other man in his position. If or when I see the evidence I may change my opinion on him, but I will never stop loving BtVS.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

BEFORE (social media was the ginormous juggernaut it became)

BTVS
1997 - First episode - ooh, this looks interesting.
2003 - Last episode. Well it certainly was a ride! And this Joss Whedon, is quite a brilliant creator although I don't necessarily agree with the choices he made for the last few series but what a genius. And still having ATS to look forward to..


NOW (with all the knowledge of the facts and rumours from social media)

Buffyverse
2020. I still think JW is quite the genius for the creation of BTVS however the rose tinted glasses have definitely been removed for me.
Nothing can take away the talent he has but I also don't think he is someone that can totally stick to the original vision he has and let's himself (like many others in this time and even back when BTVS was on), be influence by popularity which then changes his stories for him even if he didn't actually want it to go in a particular way that eventually does happens.

The writing for me starting from as early as series 4 started to feel less organic in the storytelling with plots not totally making sense how they played out. But the brilliance of the actors made up for the flaws and then the last two series happened and I couldn't ignore it anymore because the show felt so different to me in terms of the characters being made to fit the stories and not the true core of the main characters being shown.

And the writing of Buffy herself in the very last series I barely recognised. Obviously everything she had gone through would change her however the changes in her and how she acted and reacted to people and issues and events around her just for me didn't come across as the true core of the character of Buffy herself.

Now I know that MN was the showrunner for the last two series but JW was involved and so he would have given the final go ahead for all that happened in the series.

So I don't perhaps like JW in the way I did, in that I would question any (head) writer's integrity for not pressing forward with their own vision for their creation and not being swayed by the more popular voice. Alias this is a issue that many writers/showrunners face now and some hold firm and some buckle to the bigger public opinion.

As for what has been said about him privately, yes it not great to hear these things and if they are true then he needs to be held accountable regardless of all the great he has achieved in his career.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I have no doubt that Joss can be a dick to people which means he's not always the nicest person to be around, however there is a difference between being a dick to people and being a racist.

My gut feeling is that the racism card is being played by Ray Fisher in order to give himself publicity. We're in the age of BLM where actual evidence isn't necessary for someone to be accused of being a racist and then "cancelled" by the SJWs. Warner have gone woke so they'll try and distance themselves from anything controversial though happily keep domestic abuser Amber Heard employed whilst firing her victim.

In that interview where Ray Fisher "elaborated" on his accusations against Joss, at no point did he say he witnessed this supposed racist behaviour, it was always that he was "informed" about it.

I could be wrong about the situation, but it's not the first time that a black actor has made up a fake racism claim aka Jussie Smollett in order to try and boost his career. Supposedly Fisher's role was minimised in Whedon's Justice League whereas Snyder's version had his character save the day so Fisher would be annoyed by that. It's obvious that Whedon and Fisher clashed, but there needs to be evidence of Fisher's claims (which there should be if it's true eg the footage of the actor that had his skin tone changed and the reason behind it plus witness testimonies of the people that "informed" Fisher of the supposed racist behaviour of Whedon). Fisher's word shouldn't be taken as fact just because he's black (the same applies to women of all colours based on their gender) especially as he doesn't seem to have witnessed any racist behaviour and has only claimed that he was "informed" of it by a third party.

Accusations should be taken seriously and thoroughly investigated but there needs to be evidence before someone is declared to be guilty and labelled as something which they may not be but which would impact their future career prospects.

 

[LeeJones41]

My gut feeling is that the racism card is being played by Ray Fisher in order to give himself publicity.

I don't. I have always had my suspicions about Whedon and race ever since "Buffy" and "Angel" were on the air.

Despite this, I've always liked "Buffy" and I always will. But I've never been a big fan of Whedon personally. My feelings about him have existed ever since the complaints about he used non-white characters in both "Buffy" and "Angel". And between Charisma Carpenter, Kai Cole, Ray Fisher and a few other crew members from his sets . . . I'm not a fan of the man. I won't go so far as to pretend that he is not talented. Because he obviously is. But I'm not going to pretend that he does not have a personality problem.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I mean, if you want to talk about Whedon possibly being racist all you need to do is look at the caricature of Mr. Trick, especially when you consider the line "fangs don't fail me me now." that sorta cemented it for me back then even.

 

[M]

I think his career is on the decline. Like many in Hollywood, though, it won't be permanent, but he'll have to lay low for a while and nix any current projects he was hopeful for. The Buffy reboot may be the one thing that could save him, but it's going to have to be done very very well, and I don't have high expectations of that happening.

Even in past interviews, he strikes me as being a twit who is embedded too far up his own ass, and way too impressed with himself. I can also see him being a tyrant on set. However, his work on Buffy was really good, very entertaining, and original.

Plus, if you are involved with the arts, temperaments and bad behavior goes with the territory. I've had dance mistresses tear my muscles while forcing a stretch that I wasn't prepared for. I've been called everything but a human being while playing first violin for two separate orchestras, and I've been on stage while a director threw a chair at someone else. It's the nature of the beast. So long as the product turns out exceptional, it's all worth it, but when someone's personal issues start working into the art like a political ad, then it's game over. I don't mind a jerk, just make sure the product is good.

 

[fivebyfaith]

I think Buffy is the only thing he's written that I am consistently a fan of. Anything after Buffy that Joss is involved with is... eh, at best. The Avengers was alright but that's about it. I've tried and failed to watch through Angel, Firefly, and I absolutely hated Justice League. I can't get past how he treated Charisma Carpenter either (for someone who touts feminism so much he really did not get it, huh?) while at least most of Buffy was written before that happened so it doesn't leave that bad of a taste in my mouth. His work was much more ahead of the time in the nineties, and I don't think he's really adapted to audiences today. Or his power has just gone to his head, I don't know. I would not be surprised at all if what Fisher is saying is true, Joss does not have a good track record of treating POC characters with the same respect as white characters - or even female characters for that matter more recently, I mean seriously with Black Widow? He thinks he's the most revolutionary writer on earth when he is really just circling the drain.

 

[danzalthar]

There's something odd about Joss and these Marvel/DC women. He certainly didn't work them as respectfully as his own characters - I'm mean fictional characters, not the actresses. It's like the writer/director behind Black Widow and Wonder Woman isn't the same behind Buffy and Co.

 

[danzalthar]

I think his career is on the decline.

It does feel like so. :/

 

[M]

There's something odd about Joss and these Marvel/DC women. He certainly didn't work them as respectfully as his own characters - I'm mean fictional characters, not the actresses. It's like the writer/director behind Black Widow and Wonder Woman isn't the same behind Buffy and Co.

I think that could be for a few reasons.

One, his wife was, I think, part of his creative process, but his later work was just before they split. So, I presume they weren't as co-creative anymore.

Two, regardless of his personal life, he had some good female writers with him on Buffy.

Three, the characters he was working for Marvel were made decades before Buffy. Consequently, some of the original concepts of those characters are a bit dated, but since he was a fan of those comics from a young age, he likely grew up with the dated perception of the characters and was loathe to change anything.

Finally, I think Joss used to allow himself to be inspired by his actors more. Certainly a tv series allows for that kind of environment more than a film, but that could also be a result of him getting older and being less inclined to budge from his own vision.

 

[The Ferg]

I mean, if you want to talk about Whedon possibly being racist all you need to do is look at the caricature of Mr. Trick, especially when you consider the line "fangs don't fail me me now." that sorta cemented it for me back then even.

I'm not saying he has the greatest track record, when it comes to hiring non-white people, but I think there are enough that it's not fair to hold a side character from 1999 against him.

 

[vznspike]

Might be a controversial opinion, but I think the guy is a genius and most of his works are pure gold. Everyone has a different opinion on the different projects but from what I've seen (I won't lie and say I saw them all) they are delightfully entertaining with enough depth for a real message behind them.

As for his quibbles and accusations I'm of the opinion no one should judge anyone without have the facts and both sides of the story... it's very easy to misinterpret something and blow the whole thing out of proportion. Most people have been on both sides of arguments at one point or another in their lives and the truth is... it just didn't make the news.

As for not having POC characters in his shows... no one did at the time... another things that is blown way out of proportion. Thats the way it was then, this now, people have learned from their mistakes over the years, let's move forward and try not to make them in the future, no one can change the past, leave it where it is

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm not saying he has the greatest track record, when it comes to hiring non-white people,

But that has nothing to do with the point I was making, number of non-white. It's the stereotypes that is bad. Makes me very uneasy.

 

[Priceless]

But that has nothing to do with the point I was making, number of non-white. It's the stereotypes that is bad. Makes me very uneasy.

I thought that 'fangs don't fail me now' was just a sign of how old Mr Trick was. He was referencing something he had seen, either as a vamp or human, back in the 40's. But I admit I wasn't looking for racism, so maybe I just haven't picked up on it before.