Question Fans: what are your thoughts on Joss Whedon now?

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Okay, what you are really asking is, do I take the accusations regarding Justice League seriously? I don't have enough information to render a decision on that matter. Unless and until Warner releases a report, I'm not certain what he did, and the only real information I can find is; Fisher was upset that they wanted him to say, "Boo-yah!" (which was like, his third best line in the film, Cyborg.) Hearsay that Joss may have adjusted the color on a Black Actor, which could be a legitimate lighting or color issue, and would be a subjective artistic decision. The third, he cut scenes with actors of color from out the movie, which is again, a subjective artistic decision that may be defensible on artistic grounds.

Look, I can see Joss being abrasive, and moreso outside of his bubble and I can see Justice League Reshoots being a fairly troubled production. But clearly the man has 2-3 decades of production work to look back on, if he can't work with Black Actors, or can't do things without being abusive, we would have heard about it during something else. At this point in his career, Joss is pretty damaged. Regardless of the truth of the accusations, his reputation is in tatters, and the WB may just be cutting their losses, in a year when they have losses to cut.

On the plus side, I now feel completely justified in my confusion over their decade long quest to promote Cyborg. He was kind of interesting, back in the 70s when he looked like he was jury rigged together as black youth version of the six million dollar man, but this New Gods Tech Black Iron Man they've been pushing for a decade? Did anyone outside of New 52 writers like him? There was never any organic build for the character. The other members have been part of Pop Culture for over 80 years in some cases, for Cyborg (Great name, BTW) it was "Cyborg is the hero of the future, America and China will love Cyborg." Remember when they were planning a movie for this guy? Before anyone outside of Teen Titans fans even knew who he was? He's like the personification of the whole mess the DC Films have become. Top Driven, no rhyme or reason, unwilling to do the legwork that Marvel spent to build their franchise.

 

[katmobile]

James did become part of Joss' inner circle on the Buffy set and was part of the cast members who would go over to Joss' house and stuff so that incident, whilst unprofessional, obviously did not put James off, plus we don't know if Joss later privately apologised for it.




Spike was basically the life support machine in Angel. Apparently the only reason why Angel got a Season 5 was on the proviso that Spike was brought over, hence why the network heavily advertised his return despite it meant to be a surprise to the audience.




And here comes the issue with this, some people like to play the victim. In the interview with Fisher, he talked about how he was "informed" this happened or that happened rather than actually witnessing it himself. He was annoyed his script suggestions weren't adopted, his role was reduced, just because he's black doesn't mean it was because of racism and that is the crux of the whole situation. Joss can be a dick to people that's well established. It's unprofessional but Hollywood is it's own environment and has an underlying cesspool of bad behaviour. However, there is a difference between being a dick to people and being a racist. Black actors and actresses shouldn't be mollycoddled just because of their skin colour. Fisher was an actor on set who's paid just to say his lines and put in a good performance, not to insert his opinion in the script.

Also here's a comparable to your "it's a big deal to Ray Fisher": Below is a video of what's known as "Punchgate" from the final series of Celebrity Big Brother UK version. The video shows the "incident" and it shows the fallout. Watch it and decide for yourself whether Roxanne Pallett was justified with her accusations.

Serious question here in view of your views on BLM being a terrorist organisation or at least responsible for looting would you have been more sympathetic had race not been bought into it and the accuser been white because you seem to have a hard time acknowledging systemic racism is a thing.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Serious question here in view of your views on BLM being a terrorist organisation or at least responsible for looting would you have been more sympathetic had race not been bought into it and the accuser been white because you seem to have a hard time acknowledging systemic racism is a thing.

Systemic racism is not a thing, not in the modern day. That's a lie the SJWs like to peddle to justify their criminal behaviour. These so called "anti-racists" hate any black person who disagrees with their narrative and are racially abusive to them. Hypocrisy is a SJW main trait.

I don't care what colour Fisher is, he can be a freaking smurf if he wants, the point still stands that he doesn't seem to have any concrete evidence eg he WITNESSED racism and all he has is hearsay eg he was "informed" that this and that happened by a third party. His accusations are going to have a negative impact on someone else. This shouldn't be about his feelings but facts and truth. He may feel like he was mistreated but people can feel like that when they don't get their own way. The question is if he was actually mistreated and so far there's been no evidence of that. The fact that WB (who have gone woke) have not denounced Whedon's "racism" and basically sent Fisher a generic HR message says a lot.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

He's a creep, and I have no respect for him as a person. It was very disappointing to hear how he really is. However, I can separate the artist from the work and still enjoy his shows.

 

[gwenogjones]

I always feel a bit hypocritical on using 'separating art from the artist' when it comes to Buffy - because, for example, I wouldn't do it with a Roman Polanski film. Of course Joss has not been accused of anything like what Polanski has, so that is an extreme example, but I bring it up just to illustrate that there are times when I'm not willing to separate art from the artists and that there are times where I am - and would you look at that? I'm miraculously able to do with it things I love, and then regain my moral outrage when it comes to things I'm more meh about.

see - with the hypocrisy.

My justification is that a lot of people put a lot of work and love into Buffy, it does not just belong to Joss. It is the best work some of them will ever do and they did it before they had any reason to have any misgivings, therefore to not support Buffy is to not support them when they did no wrong.
On the other hand - we've know about Polanski for decades now, so if an actor or writer or producer chooses to work with him knowing what he's done, then I feel no qualms about refusing to support that part of their career. I don't care if you gave your best ever performance in a Polanski film - you did it knowing a sizeable number of people would boycott it.

(Again no actual comparison between Joss and Polanski as people - they are just examples to illustrate my line of thinking.)

But I still think to a certain extent this is just a desperate grasping of straws that still allows me to watch Buffy without pricking my conscience.

 

[danzalthar]

My justification is that a lot of people put a lot of work and love into Buffy, it does not just belong to Joss. It is the best work some of them will ever do and they did it before they had any reason to have any misgivings, therefore to not support Buffy is to not support them when they did no wrong.

Good point. Like the other user pointed out, maybe that's why the writer behind Black Widow and Wonder Woman just doesn't seem the same person responsible for characters like Buffy Summers. He didn't do his Buffyverse alone and there were women/other people working alongside him, so that's a way of keeping your Buffy love burning.

 

[danzalthar]

He's a creep, and I have no respect for him as a person. It was very disappointing to hear how he really is. However, I can separate the artist from the work and still enjoy his shows.

Based on everything that's happening, that's pretty much... it. And it's terrible to appreciate his work like this. I think the Harry Potter fans are living the same, with J. K. Rowling questionable remarks over trans people.

 

[GreyWalker1958]

At this point, I want the Snyder Cut to be what will ruin HBOMax to where AT&T can either cut their losses with Warner or sell DC off. I 'm so fecking tired of this crap. Yes, Joss,' past transgressions aren't to be beholden but I still say standing by Manchester Zack* (Snyder) isn't a hill to die on career wise.


Long as AT&T and Warner keep entertaining this bastardization of the properties they own, we'll never going to get a great DC movie ever again in our lifetime.

*His "you're living in a f***ing dreamworld!" remark smacks of Manchester Black's own words from "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, & The American Way?"

 

[Taake]

Honestly, I like his shows and writing style and will continue to do so. I like that his characters are complex and at times problematic, he writes and directs interesting and thought provoking TV and film.

Like many other directors I am sure he is an ass. As has been mentioned in this thread egos and creativity cause a lot of friction in the entertainment industry.

I am loathe to call Whedon a ”genius”, but I will say that creatively inspired people like him often leave a trail of discontent and dislike behind them. Some creative types I’ve worked with have been a nightmare, but the end product is the point, not how happy the set was.

I also enjoy work like ”The Fearless Vampire Killers, or Pardon Me, But Your Teeth Are in My Neck” even though I wouldn’t want to grab a drink with Roman Polanski.

Whatever Whedon did, or didn’t do, it wont change the hours of enjoyment I’ve gotten from his work.

I may not like the person he seems to be, but I can’t deny that my main interest in a project like The Nevers was his creative talents. And without him I can’t say I have any intention of watching a show like that.

 

[Btvs fan]

Honestly, I like his shows and writing style and will continue to do so. I like that his characters are complex and at times problematic, he writes and directs interesting and thought provoking TV and film.

Like many other directors I am sure he is an ass. As has been mentioned in this thread egos and creativity cause a lot of friction in the entertainment industry.

I am loathe to call Whedon a ”genius”, but I will say that creatively inspired people like him often leave a trail of discontent and dislike behind them. Some creative types I’ve worked with have been a nightmare, but the end product is the point, not how happy the set was.

I also enjoy work like ”The Fearless Vampire Killers, or Pardon Me, But Your Teeth Are in My Neck” even though I wouldn’t want to grab a drink with Roman Polanski.

Whatever Whedon did, or didn’t do, it wont change the hours of enjoyment I’ve gotten from his work.

I may not like the person he seems to be, but I can’t deny that my main interest in a project like The Nevers was his creative talents. And without him I can’t say I have any intention of watching a show like that.

Well its all been filmed and only a little bit of post production left to finish, so S1 should still be pretty much all Joss Whedon.

When it comes to specifically his work (leaving everything else aside) I admit I'm a mixed bag.
I tried Dollhouse but couldn't get into it. Found it a bit creepy and not in the good way.
Firefly was ok, I didn't hate it but I didn't think it was brilliant either, I actually preffered the Serenity movie.
Angel though not a perfect show I liked that but I think uts successes can go towards Tim Minear rather than Joss. Joss by his own admission admitted he didn't know how to write Angel.
Buffy was good but A it went on 2 years to long and B Joss had a tendency to raise an interesting subject or issue but not then examine the implications of what he raised. C The Whedon speak/quips can grate on modern ears. What sounded cool in 1999 is less so in 2020.

I also think there were many others who Joss sometimes gets the credit for. David Greenwalt who left half way in S4 to work full time on Angel. The seasonal structures on Buffy seemed to go crazy after he left. He was originally brought in on Buffy by the Network as Joss didn't know how to run a TV show and I think it showed. He had a tendency to focus on his moment/episode without caring what came before.
Then you've got Sarah Michelle Prinze. I don't think you can ignore her role particularly in the early years in making the show work imo. David Fury says they fell out over the other thinking they weren't giving the other enough credit for the shows success.
Others like the Stunt team should also get a nod. The new stunt crew from S5 onwards weren't very good (after peaking S4) . They used a gymnast rather than a fighter and it showed. That cartwheel kick always looked stupid.

Anyway I'm sure there are others but the point is I don't think it's fair to give Joss credit for everything when others deserve praise too.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Back on the topic of Joss, I really don't give a damn. I think he's overrated as a creator but he puts out some decent work from time to time. He's an asshole but most Hollywood types are, it goes with the territory. I also think Ray Fisher is a bit of a whiner who didn't like that he wasn't treated with kids gloves. The fact that there isn't any evidence of racism from Joss other than FIsher claiming he was "informed" of it, that WB haven't publicly denounced any "racist" behaviour, and that they sent a generic HR note to Fisher says a lot. This is the same studio that fired Johnny Depp (by asking him to resign) whilst keeping Amber Heard (despite the growing evidence of her lies).

 

[burrunjor]

Well my opinions on Joss are kind of neutral.

I still love his work as much as I did back then. He doesn't need to be a great guy to do great things creatively.

I don't know him personally so I can't comment on if he is a total asshole or not. He does sound quite cliquey and a control freak when it comes to his work, with so many people having had feuds with him. Who knows if that represents his entire persona however. Whilst many actors have had feuds with him, others have become life long friends too. To be honest the Cyborg actor felt like he was just trying to jump on a bandwagon and gain publicity for himself by going after an easy target. I always hate it when people like to dogpile on someone which is what it feels like in regards to Joss now.

Joss's feminism was always annoying meanwhile because of how he boasted about it in real life. I have always said never boast about being so for women's rights as it always comes over as conceited, hollow and like you are overcompensating.

Actions speak louder than words. In terms of representation, Rob Tapert did it the right way. He just created an iconic female hero, Xena that did make a difference in the industry and that was that. He didn't act like he was ****ing Sylvia Pankhurst for decades afterwards because of it, and as a result people are happy to give him the credit he deserves, and his desire for more female heroes seemed genuine.

Joss sadly let it went to his head and started to post crap like men have womb envy which set him up for a huge fall regardless. Even if he wasn't exposed as a serial adulterer people would be desperate to dig up dirt on him when he was acting all high and mighty.

He only has himself to blame really for his own downfall in some ways, but ultimately I do think people are being too OTT. I still don't get why Whedonesque shut down? Again who cares if he had affairs. It's not great, but that's between him and his wife.

 

[LeeJones41]

I mean, if you want to talk about Whedon possibly being racist all you need to do is look at the caricature of Mr. Trick, especially when you consider the line "fangs don't fail me me now." that sorta cemented it for me back then even.

Oh no!

By the way, why are people who complain about sexist, racist or any kind of bad treatment based upon some kind of bigotry should be considered as "whiners"? It's amazing how some are willing to address Whedon's social issues, yet at the same time, put down those who complain about him.

 

[Taake]

Oh no!

By the way, why are people who complain about sexist, racist or any kind of bad treatment based upon some kind of bigotry should be considered as "whiners"? It's amazing how some are willing to address Whedon's social issues, yet at the same time, put down those who complain about him.

I think it may stem from the fact that they, compared to the majority, are also speaking from a point of privilige and thus appear to essentially be a kid who owns the toy shop, yet cries about scraping their knee in it, and demanding that the poor kids comfort them in their distress.

Its not a perfect analogy, but I hope it is somewhat clear what I mean.

I am not saying that this is fair, but generally I feel like people have less tolerance towards complaints that appear to come from someone who seems to have a life far easier /more priviliged than their own. Applicable to many different areas of concern of course.

 

[thrasherpix]

why are people who complain about sexist, racist or any kind of bad treatment based upon some kind of bigotry should be considered as "whiners"? It's amazing how some are willing to address Whedon's social issues, yet at the same time, put down those who complain about him.

Some are called whiners because they use the most absurd or trivial reasons to cry bigotry. They can say they were treated roughly which apparently means a raised voice and/or not getting a trophy just for showing up, and they sometimes blame this on racism (to be fair, even white males can do this, sometimes calling it "reverse racism/sexism" and I measure them with the same stick).


As for Ray Fisher...as a rule of thumb I avoid celebrity gossip, seeing or reading it incidentally (playing on a TV at a place of business I'm at, playing on someone's TV, etc, even a food bank where I used to volunteer at before it shut down played a little). It's notoriously unreliable, and not only have reporters brazenly lied, but so have celebrities who engineered their own scandals and feuds with each other to generate attention and thus value (though it can backfire). Most who know me think twice before sharing it with me, though a few interviews were sent to me that I did find interesting or amusing in one way or another, but that's been rare.

I've made more exceptions since joining BB, and my experiences of it have only reinforced my antipathy for it for various reasons.



I do believe I read a few articles on Ray Fisher (someone recently anyway) and it does sound like there's more smoke than fire, generated by one or two people (remarkably few these days when many will seek out attention any way they can and this is a good way to get it), and I remember finding it vague despite sounding sympathetic.

While it's possible there were unethical or unprofessional reporting standards (that possibly worked with Warner and others to keep their press passes in a clever way that subtly sabotaged what Ray Fisher said, though he could surely clarify on his own channel, keeping in mind that blatantly false statements are subject to legal action, but by all means if there is bigotry--or lies of bigoted actions--then let it go to court), based on what I've read by seemingly sympathy articles, it sounds like Ray Fisher (or whoever it was) was essentially complaining that he wasn't treated as a star who got to dictate what happened on the set, and that others he argued with may have (I'd say probably as most people would, regardless of the races of those involved, or gender since a mousy woman--like a mousy man--is unlikely to get that kind of power) raised their voices doing so rather than being all new age Oprah about it.

That is, what virtually anybody can expect in office conflicts, especially when they try to tell the boss how to do their job just because they think they can't be fired. So he alleges racism, and to make it worse, he makes it sound as if someone else told him it was when he didn't even perceive it that way himself at first.

And that's not standing up against racism, that's exploiting it for one's own personal privilege and sense of entitlement, and giving people who actually fight racism (their own or others) a bad name. So, assuming Ray Fisher is the one I've read about in articles linked to on BB recently, then I agree--again, based on the fuzzy and vague articles I've read--that he is a whiner, not reporting actual bigoted behavior (or if he is, then it's coincidental). He may not be, but I've seen no reason to think otherwise, other than knowing how shady celebrity news is which may be sabotaging him for clickbait articles while not getting their press passes revoked by Warner (or whoever).


But that doesn't mean I consider everyone who calls out bigotry a whiner...though I always start out with claims made on twitter and the like with extreme skepticism for pretty much the same reason as I would middle school gossip by kids.

And given how stressful I know Hollywood is, filled with sharks and scumbags of all sorts, it amazes me when one turns out to be so fragile, as may be the case here, but that seems to happen more often, speaking of a sense of entitlement that where they can get paid the most (and, granted, ripped off the most) should somehow be made into their safe space while the rest of us pretty much have to put up with people even more crappy than that on a regular basis, no tears shed, less money, and a lot less people to care.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

a kid who owns the toy shop, yet cries about scraping their knee in it...

Its not a perfect analogy,

No, the perfect analogy would be the kid who owns a playground cries about scraping their knee. Was trying to figure what the toy store had to do with a scraped knee.

 

[Taake]

No, the perfect analogy would be the kid who owns a playground cries about scraping their knee. Was trying to figure what the toy store had to do with a scraped knee.

I’m gonna need you to get all the way off my back about that, sir.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@thrasherpix Well said. The was the main thing that struck me with the Ray Fisher story, in an article where he "elaborated" on his accusations, at no point did he say he actually WITNESSED racism, it was always he was INFORMED about it. Also one of his complaints was that his script suggestions weren't adopted. When a person who doesn't automatically get their own way assumes it's because of racism/sexism/transphobia/etc then that person is a whiner.

I'd even say Gal Gadot put the nail in the coffin when she revealed she had an issue with Whedon, took it to the higher ups and it was sorted then and there. She didn't make a song and dance out of it. It's no coincidence that Fisher waited to claim racism during a time when racism accusations are being thrown round by SJWs at very opportunity. and thus he's less likely to get scrutinised over it because of his skin colour.

 

[Synch]

I also think there were many others who Joss sometimes gets the credit for. David Greenwalt who left half way in S4 to work full time on Angel. The seasonal structures on Buffy seemed to go crazy after he left. He was originally brought in on Buffy by the Network as Joss didn't know how to run a TV show and I think it showed. He had a tendency to focus on his moment/episode without caring what came before.

I think the fans (myself included) usually praise S3 and S5 as the best structured Buffy seasons. Joss did S3 with Greenwalt as his #2 and S5 with Noxon as his #2. I don't think he had structural problems. In fact Angel S1-2-3 were, maaaaany times, a little bit mess in terms of narrative (in a good way: I found it pretty exciting) perhaps because the show had 3 heads (Joss, Greenwalt and Minear) and it's obvious when one of them brought their arcs (Beige Angel Tim, Pylea Joss etc).

I guess Greenwalt was more a producer than a writer and, as David Fury said, Joss and Marti were driven by emotion, that's why Whedon-Greenwalt felt more a win-win team than Whedon-Noxon but, again, S5 proved Joss (with Marti) shaped the year masterfully.

 

[Btvs fan]

I think the fans (myself included) usually praise S3 and S5 as the best structured Buffy seasons. Joss did S3 with Greenwalt as his #2 and S5 with Noxon as his #2. I don't think he had structural problems. In fact Angel S1-2-3 were, maaaaany times, a little bit mess in terms of narrative (in a good way: I found it pretty exciting) perhaps because the show had 3 heads (Joss, Greenwalt and Minear) and it's obvious when one of them brought their arcs (Beige Angel Tim, Pylea Joss etc).

I guess Greenwalt was more a producer than a writer and, as David Fury said, Joss and Marti were driven by emotion, that's why Whedon-Greenwalt felt more a win-win team than Whedon-Noxon but, again, S5 proved Joss (with Marti) shaped the year masterfully.

Disagree I think S2 was the best structured of the Buffy seasons. S5 is one of the worst. Glory is introduced in E5 then pretty much just sits around doing nothing until E20, where she suddenly develops Super speed because the plot needs her too. The structure is all over the place in that season.