Giles killing Ben

[NotASlayer]

Buffy killed directly (and encouraged Giles to run over) the knights of Byzanthium.

Well, she encouraged Giles to aim at the horsies. not the knights... 😀

Okay, being on a horse hit by an RV doing 25mph is not exactly going to tickle. 😀

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Well, she encouraged Giles to aim at the horsies. not the knights... 😀

Okay, being on a horse hit by an RV doing 25mph is not exactly going to tickle. 😀

So she encouraged him to kill horse and rider. Honestly, horse has a better chance of survival. 1000lb horse compared to a 180lb man vs an RV. Plus she also fought them hand to hand (sword to sword) throwing them off the moving vehicle.

@DeepBlueJoy The problem with your arguement is if Buffy thought killing Ben was appropriate she would

She should have killed him. In the heat of the moment, she had other things to worry about. It was bad writing, but yes, she did not get it done - but as i said with regards to the hordes of knights she fought off - she did not hesitate to kill them or try to. I dont think it was lack of the heart to do it. Personally, i suspect the TV execs did not want to glorify a teen girl killing in cold blood.

I think the Giles speech was hanging a lampshade on a stupid writing choice.but there is zero evidence Buffy would hesitate to kill a human threat elsewhere in the series.

 

[garfan]

She should have killed him. In the heat of the moment, she had other things to worry about. It was bad writing, but yes, she did not get it done - but as i said with regards to the hordes of knights she fought off - she did not hesitate to kill them or try to. I dont think it was lack of the heart to do it. Personally, i suspect the TV execs did not want to glorify a teen girl killing in cold blood.

I think the Giles speech was hanging a lampshade on a stupid writing choice.but there is zero evidence Buffy would hesitate to kill a human threat elsewhere in the series.

The knights were actively doing something, Ben was not. That's the difference. That the knights were threats in the exact moment, Ben was a threat for the future. And they easily could have staged the scene so Buffy had to kill him. But frankly it just reads as a normal hero kills tons of mooks without thought, tells the main villain they won't kill them because they're not a murderer scene

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

The knights were actively doing something, Ben was not. That's the difference. That the knights were threats in the exact moment, Ben was a threat for the future. And they easily could have staged the scene so Buffy had to kill him. But frankly it just reads as a normal hero kills tons of mooks without thought, tells the main villain they won't kill them because they're not a murderer scene

Had her character been male, she would have been rightfully considered a weak coward who shirked her responsibility, not a hero.

Yes, you are 100% right. She did not kill him. I think it was a dumb, sexist & financial decision by execs or writers.

You believe what you believe. That her "not being able to kill humans" makes her heroic. Since by that time she has killed several humans and led dozens of kids into a deadly battle with the mayor, i think her view is adult. You fight evil; people die. It isn't fun or desirable but sometimes it is necessary.

We may not think of Angel as human but she saw him as the man she loved. She ended his life because it was needed to stop the threat.

What they had her NOT do with Ben was therefore illogical.

I don't think she killed Angel because he was a demon. She killed him because Acathla was a threat and his death ended the threat.

IMO, the writers (or execs) missed a chance to have her make the hard and *right* choice - to make sure the threat was ended. To show her strength.

I believe what i believe. Please stop trying to show me i am wrong. I am expressing my SETTLED opinion about a 30 year old show. You cannot school me or "prove me wrong". I cannot school you or "fix" your opinion. *It is not my job to agree with you.*

I even repeatedly concede your facts. Always will. I may never agree with your opinions, however.

You are not winning the internet. You cant. No one can. I cannot either - even if i am "correct". I will not change your mind. I accept that. I accept the facts.

I have also seen every episode of the series many times and i have my own understanding of the series. I have my opinions. They do evolve. But they cannot be beaten out of me because you don't like them.

We will not agree on this. I will not change my mind. I cannot change yours.

 

[garfan]

Had her character been male, she would have been rightfully considered a weak coward who shirked her responsibility, not a hero.

Yes, you are 100% right. She did not kill him. I think it was a dumb, sexist & financial decision by execs or writers.

You believe what you believe. That her "not being able to kill humans" makes her heroic. Since by that time she has killed several humans and led dozens of kids into a deadly battle with the mayor, i think her view is adult. You fight evil; people die. It isn't fun or desirable but sometimes it is necessary.

We may not think of Angel as human but she saw him as the man she loved. She ended his life because it was needed to stop the threat.

What they had her NOT do with Ben was therefore illogical.

I don't think she killed Angel because he was a demon. She killed him because Acathla was a threat and his death ended the threat.

IMO, the writers (or execs) missed a chance to have her make the hard and *right* choice - to make sure the threat was ended. To show her strength.

I believe what i believe. Please stop trying to show me i am wrong. I am expressing my SETTLED opinion about a 30 year old show. You cannot school me or "prove me wrong". I cannot school you or "fix" your opinion. *It is not my job to agree with you.*

I even repeatedly concede your facts. Always will. I may never agree with your opinions, however.

You are not winning the internet. You cant. No one can. I cannot either - even if i am "correct". I will not change your mind. I accept that. I accept the facts.

I have also seen every episode of the series many times and i have my own understanding of the series. I have my opinions. They do evolve. But they cannot be beaten out of me because you don't like them.

We will not agree on this. I will not change my mind. I cannot change yours.

Well, you need to understand sometimes I keep responding because people keep misunderstanding my points or my reasoning.

I actually think she should have killed Ben, I'm just trying to explain why she didn't. With Angel there was an actively opening portal directly connected to his actions, unlike with Ben, that could be closed by his "death," so also nothing to do with him being a demon. I don't know where I said anything that would make you need to clarify that.

I actually am strongly against her stance against killing humans and I feel like I've said enough over the years to make that clear. I am in favor of Warren's death, I think Faith killing Finch was an accident everyone overreacted to, and I don't respect her reactions to Ted or Katrina

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Ben is Dawn. Any logic that Buffy saves Dawn requires her to save Ben. Any logic requiring Giles to kill Ben also applies to Dawn. That's the tragedy. He took an oath to protect this world, even if it requires the shedding of innocent blood, including his own, if need be.

 

[garfan]

Ben is Dawn. Any logic that Buffy saves Dawn requires her to save Ben. Any logic requiring Giles to kill Ben also applies to Dawn. That's the tragedy. He took an oath to protect this world, even if it requires the shedding of innocent blood, including his own, if need be.

even though when it came down to it Dawn was prepared to sacrifice herself to save everyone, while Ben repeatedly sacrificed or endangered others to save his own skin?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

even though when it came down to it Dawn was prepared to sacrifice herself to save everyone, while Ben repeatedly sacrificed or endangered others to save his own skin?

Irrelevant. Any reason to sanction either Dawn or Ben is based on the danger their alter egos pose. It's purely the circumstances of their birth, not what they have done with the gift of life. Giles wasn't casting judgement on Ben's character, just that he was too dangerous to leave alive.