Has Joss Whedon ever been challenged over his feminism with regard to 'Angel' (the series)?

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
Most articles and interviews about Joss and his feminist credentials tend to focus on the progressiveness and inconic status of Buffy but does anyone know if Joss has ever been directly questioned or challenged over his poor treatment of female characters on Angel?
 
I've never seen it mentioned. What about his poor treatment of the male character on Angel? I don't have an issue with his 'poor' treatment of female characters on Angel. Now, Firefly, that would be a different matter! When Joss' idea of a good storyline is a woman gets ganged raped by several men and her female parts are so toxic that it kills them. Surprisingly he let the other writers talk him out of doing that episode.
 
Because I don't really see it.
So the fact that every prominent female character is killed off by the end of the series, two of whom are subjected to gross violations of their bodily autonomy (with Cordy experiencing it 3 times actually - 'Expecting', 'Epiphany' and Jasdelia) - is not at all problematic to you in light of Joss' self-identification as a feminist writer?
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Thank you!!!
So the fact that every prominent female character is killed off by the end of the series, two of whom are subjected to gross violations of their bodily autonomy (with Cordy experiencing it 3 times actually - 'Expecting', 'Epiphany' and Jasdelia) - is not at all problematic to you in light of Joss' self-identification as a feminist writer?
No, not really. Of course I never really called Joss a feminist writer. He's a good storyteller and was telling good stories. The last Cordy thing had less to do with his treatment of the character and more to do with hissy-fit about the actor. But that's a different question.
 
No, not really. Of course I never really called Joss a feminist writer. He's a good storyteller and was telling good stories. The last Cordy thing had less to do with his treatment of the character and more to do with hissy-fit about the actor. But that's a different question.
It's not about whether we consider him a feminist, but about the incongruity - hypocrisy, even - of him proclaiming himself a feminist writer while helming a show in which female characters are repeatedly deprived of control over their own bodies and ultimately killed off. It doesn't matter what motivated the plot decisions - what matters is what ended up on our screens. The point is that given how invested he was in making Buffy a feminist icon and how much he has advocated strong female characters who subvert sexist storytelling tropes, he should have recognised that his work on AtS was going against that. The topic comes up a lot in fandom and in Whedon academia but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing the issue put to him directly.
 
about the incongruity - hypocrisy, even - of him proclaiming himself a feminist writer
Oh I have harped on that time and time again. I just thought you meant that the female characters on Angel were treated horribly or something, and that I didn't see. Now that I understand your question, yes, there have been a few people that have brought it up and they have been silenced by the throng of Whedon fans that feel he walks on water and can do no wrong.

But again, Firefly is much worse than Angel. And Dollhouse arguably worse than that. There was a whole big stink back when Age of Ultron came out and his treatment of Black Widow. He had to run and hide from Twitter for months because of the backlish for his treatment of women. And now we know that that treatment of women extends from the scripts into his real life too.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Thank you for pointing out the black widow thing!
I just thought you meant that the female characters on Angel were treated horribly or something, and that I didn't see.
Of course they aren't treated horribly throughout their run - on an episode-by-episode basis at least, but in terms of the end result, then yes I'd say they are.

Now that I understand your question, yes, there have been a few people that have brought it up and they have been silenced by the throng of Whedon fans that feel he walks on water and can do no wrong.
But has he himself ever been challenged about it directly - in an interview or Comic-Con panel, or something?
 
But has he himself ever been challenged about it directly - in an interview or Comic-Con panel, or something?
I don't know about a comic-con but I do remember him being asked something about things of that nature in an interview and he made one of his little funnies about the question and they moved on.

"they aren't treated horribly throughout their run.... but in terms of the end result, then yes I'd say they are."
I still don't see them being treated that much different than their male counterparts. Especially if Carpenter had not gotten pregnant. That's the only thing that I would consider "bad" treatment. But again, I liked the story. But hey... I ship/shipped Connor and Cordy so...
 
So the fact that every prominent female character is killed off by the end of the series, two of whom are subjected to gross violations of their bodily autonomy (with Cordy experiencing it 3 times actually - 'Expecting', 'Epiphany' and Jasdelia) - is not at all problematic to you in light of Joss' self-identification as a feminist writer?

I don't see how Fred's death and subsequent resurrection of Ilyria is a "gross violation of their bodily autonomy." Fred dies. Her soul is gone. She no longer exists. Her dead body is now used a the shell for the demon. I don't see this as any different than when Angel's soul is removed (a death equivalent) and Angelus takes over and controls his body (instead of the human soul controlling the body). Fred is fridged. That sucks. They should have thought about how in s5 the only female character left from the main cast was fridged just to create this compelling character. It doubly sucks because I actually really like Illyria. She is interesting and Amy Acker is amazing playing her so I think Joss maybe just said "F it I know this is problematic but Amy is so good." But, and not that this is necessarily an excuse, Joss (and by extension Greenwalt) didn't set out with an agenda to write a feminist show when he went to write Angel. He set out to write a show about a man-hero type. They start out s1 with tooooooons of females damseled and saved by Angel. So when they miss the mark terribly on the show regarding progressive feminist treatment of female characters I'm not nearly as shocked (whereas with BtVS I am because that is or was the aim of the show).

Anyway to your original question, I've never seen Joss questioned about Angel and feminism.
 
ETA:

Now Angel s11, with Illyria/Fred ... that I do find problematic stuff because Fred is around - somehow - again. And that was written by a female.
 
I don't see how Fred's death and subsequent resurrection of Ilyria is a "gross violation of their bodily autonomy." Fred dies. Her soul is gone. She no longer exists. Her dead body is now used a the shell for the demon. I don't see this as any different than when Angel's soul is removed (a death equivalent) and Angelus takes over and controls his body (instead of the human soul controlling the body). Fred is fridged. That sucks.
The violation to Fred's body is the infection of Illyria. Similarly to both Darla and Cordy, Fred is infected/impregnated without her consent and forced to carry and "birth" the infection. Her body is literally hollowed out in order for Illyria to be "born", her organs liquified, her skin hardened, dying a slow and painful death from a foreign being which is taking over her body, all without her consent. It's definitely a gross violation and, in light of what happened to Cordy and Darla, it's even grosser. All three women die from unwanted "pregnancies" which they cannot rid themselves of and never asked for. It's pretty horrifying.
 
Bite-me
Bite-me
Excellent point which has been brought up before. At least the disease/pregnancy metaphor is appropriate for body horror trope bc women do experience both as a invasion.
Why do you all blame only Joss ? I mean, yes he is the creator of the series, but by the time Angel was aired he wasn't on the set all the time, he had other shows, so personnally I don't blame only him for whathever I dislike on the show !
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
True he is not the only one to blame!
It's pretty horrifying.

I want to make sure I'm not being interpreted as saying that Fred's death is anything less than horrifying - it was. I just didn't see it as a "pregnancy." I saw it as a slow and horribly painful death.
 
I heard somebody planned to, but they didn't know from which end to start, so they gave up.
 
I want to make sure I'm not being interpreted as saying that Fred's death is anything less than horrifying - it was. I just didn't see it as a "pregnancy." I saw it as a slow and horribly painful death.
While it's not a literal pregnancy, like Cordy or Darla, it's essentially the same concept. A foreign being infected/impregnated Fred, against her will, and used her body as a vessel. It was a complete violation of Fred's autonomy, agency and body, as Illyria used Fred's body in order to come back into existence or "birth" itself (similarly to Cordy with Jasmine).
 
While it's not a literal pregnancy, like Cordy or Darla, it's essentially the same concept. A foreign being infected/impregnated Fred, against her will, and used her body as a vessel. It was a complete violation of Fred's autonomy, agency and body, as Illyria used Fred's body in order to come back into existence or "birth" itself (similarly to Cordy with Jasmine).

I'm not trying to argue with you here as you make some valid points. But let me as you this: Is everytime a vampire sires a human the same concept? A demon, against the person's will, uses the human body to infect it with the essence of the demon to essentially give birth to a new demon?
 
I'm not trying to argue with you here as you make some valid points. But let me as you this: Is everytime a vampire sires a human the same concept? A demon, against the person's will, uses the human body to infect it with the essence of the demon to essentially give birth to a new demon?
... Not really the same thing, I mean, you become a vampire by drinking their blood not by the vampire taking over your entire being, which is literally what Illyria does to Fred. The vampire doesn't hollow out your insides, liquify your organs and turn you into a shell for them to possess. I mean, I can kinda see what you're going for but it doesn't really hold up.
 
But isn’t it sexist to not write a good story just to keep a female character alive just because she is a female? We can’t say we want equal treatment then get upset when we are given equal treatment. If Joss or any other writer refused to write a compelling or interesting story just because a female character would suffer that would be pandering to a political agenda to me and pretty insulting .

This next comment might get tomatoes thrown at me, but men and women ARE different. Men can’t get pregnant or give birth. Only women can. So if a good story involves a pregnancy of some kind , then oh well, it’s gonna involve a female. Plenty of horrible things happen to men on his shows too. No one on Btvs or AtS is safe. That to me is equality and personally I don’t think it’s anti feminist.
 
The Bronze
The Bronze
Spot on
All of Whedon's projects scream of misogyny and fake feminism.

But the character I feel the worst for on AtS is Connor. He was targeted while still in the womb. He survived 9 months of abortion attempts. He was kidnapped. He was trapped for 17 years in what was referred as one of the worst Hell dimensions. He fought and killed demons since he was a child. He was orphaned when Holtz died. He was homeless and living in an abandoned building. And then an ancient Power That Be groomed him. She seduced him into falling in love with her, siding with her, protecting her, losing his virginity to her, impregnating her, killing for her. He'd been on Earth for less than a year when that happened. And it was so Jasmine would have her own body so he was groomed by his future daughter. And then had to kill her to save the world. By the series finale, he was still a teenager.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yes! Connor deserved so much better!
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
When I said earlier that he couldn't consent - this is what I meant. Whatever his actual age in years was, he wasn't ready for adult choices. And since she wasn't herself, Cordelia didn't consent either.
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