How do you reconcile perceived OOC character behaviour?

[Ethan Reigns]

You'd think they would have a little class
Like a human sacrifice

Press 1 for goat, press 2 for lamb, press 3 to be put on the waiting list for a virgin.

 

[The Ferg]

Yup. Tragedy of a missed opportunity really. I loved the ending of Lynch's arc: that final panel of Angel walking off into the night, but this time it's a lit street rather than a dark alley - a glimmer of hope. I really wanted to see a return to A.I. roots and mission statement but in a changed LA, to see him trying to help all those people with their experiences. But alas...

Well technically the continuing Angel series did try to explore Angel(/Connor) and co's new detective agency, but they never really helped anyone that was affected by HellA, specifically. Of course, as much as I enjoy that stuff, it's kind of the type of story that disappears from my memory after a day or two, so there's a chance that I'm just misremembering.

I gotta say though, going back to the hotel and creating another detective agency, with Connor at the lead is a fine idea. I would have loved to see that Connor's agency was alive and well during that A&FS9 arc.

so if we trust these timelines than...Angel wtf has happened to you mate
they should have just made it a possession because the other way is confusing as hell

This is why I refuse to believe that timeline. There simply has to be a significant chunk of time between AtF and BS8 for Angel to change so drastically. And if not, I don't care, that's what head-canon is for. 😉

 

[EarthLogic]

Wow, this thread has had over 2000 views this month! Well done guys! 🙂

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

When a character's behaviour takes a noticeably different/odd turn, how do you process this change? Do you find a way to make it make sense in line with their previous characterisation or do you find yourself taken out of the story and forced to see it simply as terrible writing?

For me, the most overt example is Angel in the comics. I’ve seen many readers/fans regard his behaviour as Twilight as entirely consistent with his character, a view which I personally find baffling. I found the arc a gross exaggeration where a few traits were seized upon and made to stand for his whole character. As a result I cannot even hate him as many fans did/do, because to me that just isn’t the same person I watched for 8 seasons. In order for me to hate or be disappointed in a character’s actions, I still have to find them believable and psychologically consistent.

The fact that this happened in the comics makes it easier to disregard though, as you can make a good argument for them not being canon (imo precisely because of the bizzaro writing). In-show changes are trickier to dismiss altogether because they’re part of the original self-contained narrative. S7 Giles for example: if you didn’t like him then, is it because you accept he became a less admirable person and so judge him accordingly, or do you feel like it was just a writing fail?

Where do you draw the line when it comes to assessing characters?

Usually I just find explanation for the OCC moments or tend to forget about them if they are not too impactful on the overall story. It's harder when it's a complete season like Cordelia in S4 of ATS but the worst I can do is roll my eyes and wait for it to pass!

However, if it's from the comics I choose not to see them as canon as there is way too much for me to hate in theses!

 

[thetopher]

When it comes to OOC behaviour I do have real problems reconciling Joyce and Buffy's relationship post-S6 Normal Again. It just doesn't fit their interactions s1-3.
But I suppose Buffy's memories of the asylum could've been a side-effect of the demon poison, or implanted by the monks because jerks.

 

[NeonSlayer]

When it comes to OOC behaviour I do have real problems reconciling Joyce and Buffy's relationship post-S6 Normal Again. It just doesn't fit their interactions s1-3.
But I suppose Buffy's memories of the asylum could've been a side-effect of the demon poison, or implanted by the monks because jerks.

I thought it was very in character.

Buffy staked a vampire two feet in front of her mom and Joyce still had trouble believing her. "This is insane, you need help." "I'm not crazy!" Then acted as though Buffy leaving town the week she was framed for the murder of one of her friends and expelled from school & kicked out of the house was being irresponsible. She had months to ask Buffy's friends what was going on in her life but instead ranted to a woman from book club about her wayward daughter.

In Lover's Walk Joyce barely found out that Angel had a soul and was back from Hell. That means in all that time she never talked to Buffy about him. It's worse than it taking Sheila half a year to realize Willow cut her hair. She knows her underage daughter lost her virginity to a man who then stalked & harassed her & murdered people and they had a total of one short talk about it.

Joyce was washing blood and guts out of her clothes every month. She nailed her window shut. She easily believed Buffy killed Kendra. She thought Buffy was associated with violent street gangs. She thought Buffy just decided all wily nilly to commit arson on school campus.

What kind of mom drops her 16 year old off to school on her first day at a new campus and says "Try not to get kicked out". She didn't say it as a joke. Then the next night she already shows she's out of her depth and doesn't know what to do. "It's starting again, isn't it? We haven't even finished unpacking and I'm getting calls from the principal."

If Buffy hadn't of been the Slayer, she probably would have needed to see a psychiatrist. She keeps holy water in her desk drawer and hides weapons in her bedroom. She sneaks out in the middle of the night and comes home with bruises and bloodied clothes. She sets fires and her grades suddenly dropped and she knows psychopaths who break into buildings to murder everyone inside.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy staked a vampire two feet in front of her mom and Joyce still had trouble believing her. "This is insane, you need help." "I'm not crazy!" Then acted as though Buffy leaving town the week she was framed for the murder of one of her friends and expelled from school & kicked out of the house was being irresponsible. She had months to ask Buffy's friends what was going on in her life but instead ranted to a woman from book club about her wayward daughter.

Right. So ALL the times that Buffy off-handedly told Joyce that she was a vampire slayer; when she was drunk in 'The Witch', when she was feverish in 'Killed By Death' and when Buffy JOKED about it in 'Bad Eggs', and Joyce just looked BEMUSED whereas in actual fact she should've looked incredibly alarmed or guilty since the last time Buffy told her about vampires and stuff Joyce had her committed.

And also the fact is that this was never brought up in early S3. At all. That's totally realistic is it?
Joyce criticizes Buffy for leaving and Buffy never thinks to bring up the fact in 'Becoming Part 2' or Dead Man's Party' that her Mom had her locked away in a nut house...

It casts their whole previous relationship in this completely unreal light, just so we can have more 'matryr-Buffy' in a sub-par S6 episode. Great.

Joyce was washing blood and guts out of her clothes every month.

Yeah, Joyce was in denial. I don't think she would've been in so much denial if she- for a moment- suspected that her daughter had mental problems.

She nailed her window shut.

That was Ted. Jesus. Joyce never did that, Buffy manafged to sneak out of her room all the time even when she was grounded.

She easily believed Buffy killed Kendra.

Joyce didn't know waht to beleive, only what the police told her. The police were hunting her daughter and she spent the whole night driving around looking for her worried sick.

She thought Buffy was associated with violent street gangs.

So criminal, not psychotic then.
But seriously in 'School Hard' Joyce was rightly proud of her daughter and not the gorgon you seem to think she is.

She thought Buffy just decided all wily nilly to commit arson on school campus.

She didn't think that, that's what actually happened, since Buffy couldn't tell her the actual truth.

Unless we beleive the S6 ret-con and Buffy was simply fearful; of being institutionalized by her darling parents again.

What kind of mom drops her 16 year old off to school on her first day at a new campus and says "Try not to get kicked out". She didn't say it as a joke. Then the next night she already shows she's out of her depth and doesn't know what to do. "It's starting again, isn't it? We haven't even finished unpacking and I'm getting calls from the principal."

Yes. Joyce was rightly neurotic because she thought she had a problem child on her hands. She'd gone through a nasty divorce and had to up sticks and move away from her old life just so Buffy could have a chance at a proper education. Truly, what a horrible Mom.

 

[NeonSlayer]

Right. So ALL the times that Buffy off-handedly told Joyce that she was a vampire slayer; when she was drunk in 'The Witch', when she was feverish in 'Killed By Death' and when Buffy JOKED about it in 'Bad Eggs', and Joyce just looked BEMUSED whereas in actual fact she should've looked incredibly alarmed or guilty since the last time Buffy told her about vampires and stuff Joyce had her committed.

And also the fact is that this was never brought up in early S3. At all. That's totally realistic is it?
Joyce criticizes Buffy for leaving and Buffy never thinks to bring up the fact in 'Becoming Part 2' or Dead Man's Party' that her Mom had her locked away in a nut house...

It casts their whole previous relationship in this completely unreal light, just so we can have more 'matryr-Buffy' in a sub-par S6 episode. Great.



Yeah, Joyce was in denial. I don't think she would've been in so much denial if she- for a moment- suspected that her daughter had mental problems.



That was Ted. Jesus. Joyce never did that, Buffy manafged to sneak out of her room all the time even when she was grounded.



Joyce didn't know waht to beleive, only what the police told her. The police were hunting her daughter and she spent the whole night driving around looking for her worried sick.



So criminal, not psychotic then.
But seriously in 'School Hard' Joyce was rightly proud of her daughter and not the gorgon you seem to think she is.



She didn't think that, that's what actually happened, since Buffy couldn't tell her the actual truth.

Unless we beleive the S6 ret-con and Buffy was simply fearful; of being institutionalized by her darling parents again.



Yes. Joyce was rightly neurotic because she thought she had a problem child on her hands. She'd gone through a nasty divorce and had to up sticks and move away from her old life just so Buffy could have a chance at a proper education. Truly, what a horrible Mom.

At no point in my post did I say Joyce was a horrible mom or a gorgon. I even said if Buffy hadn't of been a Slayer it would've looked like she needed professional help. She kept going back & forth on not knowing if she was raising a kid who was disturbed or disturbed. I have a bigger issue with her trying to brush the seriousness under the rug instead of settling things. In my family serious issues are hardly ever adequately dealt with either.

I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I wasn't insulting your mom.

When Buffy left town, Joyce blamed Giles so no I don't think she would blame herself for committing her.

She wasn't drunk in Witch, she was under a spell. And was so erratic it led to Xander telling the other cheerleaders "she's on medication" and one of them saying "obviously not enough." And at the end of the episode Joyce is still dumbfounded by Buffy, saying "I don't get it." She was so out of her depth she started reading patenting books. Killed by Death proves more than disproves that Buffy was committed. She was fine being in a hospital in that scene as well as in s1 until she was told she was forced to stay there as a patient. She immediately brought up vampires, asked Giles to corroborate, and begged her mom to let her come home. In Bad Eggs Joyce responded "I don't know what goes on in your head", that's not the same as just being bemused. I have relatives who were committed and people don't act shocked when they say something weird.

It shouldn't be hard to believe your only child didn't murder someone.

Buffy has dealt with horrible things happening to her the entire series. The writers didn't decide it for one episode. Why is it when people disagree about a plot they always accuse the writers of trying to martyr Buffy?

I don't think Normal Again was bad. The acting was great and Joyce's speech is really memorable.

Joyce could have screwed up or not been a necessarily good mother without it meaning I'm vilifying her. I'm bisexual and my parents are homophobic and we're still really close. They say that if they are walking down the street and see me with a girlfriend they'll walk the other way, that if I marry a girl they won't come to the wedding, etc. The fact that they think I'll be judged when I die had no merit on our relationship.

 

[thetopher]

I don't think the sarcasm is warranted. I wasn't insulting your mom.

Relax, I was poking fun. But I apologize if you were offended.

At no point in my post did I say Joyce was a horrible mom or a gorgon.

But you accused Joyce of nailing Buffy's windows shut lol. That sounds like 'horrible Mom' territory. Y'know, actual imprisonment.

When Buffy left town, Joyce blamed Giles so no I don't think she would blame herself for committing her.

Joyce also blamed herself as well as Giles and Buffy. She even says to Buffy that she messed up during their DMP argument. So your supposition is most likely incorrect.

She wasn't drunk in Witch, she was under a spell.

Sorry, but way to completely miss the point. Buffy said 'I'm a vampire slayer' and Joyce was puzzled. If she'd heard Buffy's 'delusions' before then she would've been alarmed.

And there was the time Buffy mentioned it as a JOKE to Joyce and Joyce's reaction was again, to look completely lost not 'uh-oh, my daughter's having another psychotic break.'

So your statement that it made perfect sense in the history of the show is just....not backed up by what we see at all.

It shouldn't be hard to believe your only child didn't murder someone.

Joyce only knew what the police told her.
Maybe Buffy accidentally killed somebody...like what almost happened to that Ted guy from a few months ago? I mean, it's not like Buffy doesn't have form for being violent and Joyce didn't previously SEE that with her own eyes. Y'know, Buffy going off and almost killing somebody.

So yeah, I'll give Joyce a pass here.

Buffy has dealt with horrible things happening to her the entire series. The writers didn't decide it for one episode. Why is it when people disagree about a plot they always accuse the writers of trying to martyr Buffy?

Because it was out of character and then then never mentioned again. That's poor writing because it wasn't organic from what came before. It was only there to heap misery on Buffy, same as her getting a crappy fast food job and all the other logic fails of S6.

And excuse me if in a lot of your posts you seem to list off every bad thing that ever happened to Buffy as some kind of badge of honor to justify any and all of her behaviour and demoize every other character.

I don't think Normal Again was bad. The acting was great and Joyce's speech is really memorable.

I'm glad you like the episode but to me it has too many logic holes to take seriously.

I won't comment on your other statements since they have zero bearing on this discussion.

 

[NeonSlayer]

Relax, I was poking fun. But I apologize if you were offended.



But you accused Joyce of nailing Buffy's windows shut lol. That sounds like 'horrible Mom' territory. Y'know, actual imprisonment.



Joyce also blamed herself as well as Giles and Buffy. She even says to Buffy that she messed up during their DMP argument. So your supposition is most likely incorrect.



Sorry, but way to completely miss the point. Buffy said 'I'm a vampire slayer' and Joyce was puzzled. If she'd heard Buffy's 'delusions' before then she would've been alarmed.

And there was the time Buffy mentioned it as a JOKE to Joyce and Joyce's reaction was again, to look completely lost not 'uh-oh, my daughter's having another psychotic break.'

So your statement that it made perfect sense in the history of the show is just....not backed up by what we see at all.



Joyce only knew what the police told her.
Maybe Buffy accidentally killed somebody...like what almost happened to that Ted guy from a few months ago? I mean, it's not like Buffy doesn't have form for being violent and Joyce didn't previously SEE that with her own eyes. Y'know, Buffy going off and almost killing somebody.

So yeah, I'll give Joyce a pass here.




Because it was out of character and then then never mentioned again. That's poor writing because it wasn't organic from what came before. It was only there to heap misery on Buffy, same as her getting a crappy fast food job and all the other logic fails of S6.

And excuse me if in a lot of your posts you seem to list off every bad thing that ever happened to Buffy as some kind of badge of honor to justify any and all of her behaviour and demoize every other character.



I'm glad you like the episode but to me it has too many logic holes to take seriously.

I won't comment on your other statements since they have zero bearing on this discussion.

It didn't come off as poking fun at all but thanks for apologizing.

I don't need to demonize the other characters. They do it to themselves by committing torture, rape, murder, & genocide. What is the worst thing Buffy has done? An iffy speech? Not knowing until she fought Caleb that he punched hard enough to knock her unconscious? Trying to convince Wood not to revenge murder a souled vampire? Cutting her bangs too short in Amends?

Did the episode Ted say it was him who nailed the window shut? If it was Joyce I don't think that counts as actual imprisonment since she would've thought she was just preventing Buffy from sneaking out at night. It would be imprisonment if she put a padlock on her bedroom door. So the crime is in ignoring why Buffy was sneaking out & where she was going. She would lecture & ground her instead of investigating the root of the problem.

In Dead Man's Party Joyce followed "I screwed up" with "Guess what? Mom's not perfect. It doesn't give you the right to punish me by running away." That takes all the weight out of her acknowledge of guilt and places blame on Buffy.

Joyce wouldn't think Buffy was having another psychotic break if Buffy was released from the psych ward because she recanted. She would think Buffy was just being flippant about things. I know people who have been suicidal, had eating disorders, etc, but later make jokes about it. No one was alarmed and if they thought it was going to happen again they would be more exasperated than anything. She genuinely had no idea where Buffy's head was at. It's kind of like Riley before they started dating saying she's peculiar and doesn't seem all there when you talk to her. And a lot of people from her high school thinking she was a freak.

Ted was a misogynistic serial killer. I don't think Buffy defending herself from a man who had the murdered bodies of his previous 4 wives in his basement should be a strike against her. Especially since she told Joyce beforehand that he threatened to physically harm her.

Buffy had a crappy job in s6 because she was too depressed to work anywhere else and hadn't yet finished college, had a criminal record (unless most of it was sealed because of her age), and had to be flexible with hours for MOTW cases. In s3 she was a waitress, in s9 a barista, and the only reason she got to have an office job in s7 was that Wood was the son of a Slayer (and with his mommy issues was trying to bang one). Every job she has had has been low pay, 3 out of 4 long term jobs were food industry.

A lot of things should be mentioned but aren't. Such as Buffy's first Watcher. You would think he would be mentioned sometime, especially when Faith was thinking Buffy had it lucky getting to have Giles as her Watcher while Faith's first Watcher was killed. You'd think the writers would bring up Buffy's first Watcher was killed and she didn't meet Giles until her second year as Slayer.