How you fix the Cordelia possession?

[Miss Muffet]

So I think we can all agree that Cordelia being evil and possessed was poorly done, so how would you fix it? Assuming you're still limited by the fact Cordelia needs some episodes off at the end of the season for Charisma's pregnancy, what would you do differently? Would it be revealed earlier? Would Jasmine show up earlier? Any general thoughts?

 

[Cohen]

Get rid of the creepy Connor sex arc. In fact, Connor is mystically transported back to Quartoth and everyone forgets his existence. Also get rid of the ascension to higher power storyline and the possible Cangel meetup in the season finale. I think it would be interesting for Groo to influence Cordy to seeing Angel in a different light.

Okay so Cordy isn’t EVIL, but she’s slowly influenced into seeing that Angel is misguided. Wait okay, Jasmine is using flashes of Doyle (from archived/deleted footage) to make Angel think that he is doing some type of good, but he’s the one who is bringing about her existence. Cordy/Groo/Wes are figuring this out, pitted against Angel/Fred/Gunn who are following the lead of fake Doyle/Jasmine. And finally Doyle/Jasmine makes Angel THINK Cordy has gone to the dark side and an epic fight ensues, and the REAL Doyle comes back for just a brief second to save Cordelia (who’s still put in a coma for the end of the season) and Jasmine is brought into the world, and that arc still happens.

Post automatically merged: Sep 27, 2022

Plasma So what you’re saying is double down on Connor. Every episode is a Connor sex episode?

You are black thorn through and through.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

You can't. Cordie being possessed with the Baby Antichrist is a bad payoff to six years of storytelling. No amount of "subverting expectations" is going to fix it.

 

[Tome]

So I think we can all agree that Cordelia being evil and possessed was poorly done, so how would you fix it? Assuming you're still limited by the fact Cordelia needs some episodes off at the end of the season for Charisma's pregnancy, what would you do differently? Would it be revealed earlier? Would Jasmine show up earlier? Any general thoughts?

I disagree. I thought it was fine. If anything Charisma's acting was subpar as Evil!Cordy. But I think that had mostly to do with her not liking to play that part.

You can't. Cordie being possessed with the Baby Antichrist is a bad payoff to six years of storytelling. No amount of "subverting expectations" is going to fix it.

It's the exact opposite, dude. Symbolically, Jasmine was the Christ reborn. She was bringing peace to the world. Angel and co played AGAINST her. If anything, they helped the bad guys. This is literally brought up in the final few episodes with the Senior Partners thanking Angel and offering him Wolfram and Hart.

As for it being a bad payoff, I half agree. I really loved the first sixteen or so episodes of the season, but it took a dip after Jasmine appeared. I liked the twists and turns, but the way everything played out with Jasmine/Connor was underwhelming.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I disagree that Jasmine was the returned Christ - she was written as the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be beautiful and seductive. The Antichrist will right longstanding wrongs. And the Antichrist will sacrifice people (in this case, consuming them). The Antichrist was predicted to come saying "peace" and she did.

 

[Tome]

I disagree that Jasmine was the returned Christ - she was written as the Antichrist. The Antichrist will be beautiful and seductive. The Antichrist will right longstanding wrongs. And the Antichrist will sacrifice people (in this case, consuming them). The Antichrist was predicted to come saying "peace" and she did.

She was not, when you take into consideration exactly what was stated in the show. The conundrum was that peace would come at the price of removing freedom of choice from humanity. This went along with the notion that humans are sinners and must be led like sheeps by the Christ. The Devil and the Antichrist are literally in opposition to that, however nefarious they might be depicted. They are rebellious and champion freedom.

Now, I'll admit that there can be multiple interpretations of Jasmine, but the one the writers ended up with was the one I'm talking about. The First Evil tried to stop Jasmine's plan by attempting to convince Angel to kill himself, and ultimately the Senior Partners thanked Angel for his actions. All of the cast questioned whether what they did was right, and they had a lot of remorses as they didn't feel hate toward Jasmine even after the spell wore off.

It always seemed pretty clear that Jasmine was trying to help humanity and that Angel screwed that up.

 

[Taake]

Rewatching, I think the idea is good, my problems with is Charisma. They needed to get her off the show at that point.

a) Her acting, she is godawful. SMG disliked some Buffy plots, but she always acted the heck out of it, cause that is her job. So CC not liking the plot is irrelevant to me, she is just a bad actress with too big of an ego if that is her excuse.

b) The age difference between Charisma and Vincent. Cordelia and Connor are closer in age than Cordy and Angel, their pairing isn’t gross on paper, it is gross because of the actors. They should’ve cast someone who had chemistry with Charisma, and it would’ve helped if at least they wouldn’t have had Cangel on the side/back burner. Father and son competing for the same woman is ick.

All said and done only way to fix the weak parts of the season is to get rid of Charisma entirely. She is the weak point. She can’t act like a villain, she has no chemistry with either Connor or Angel this season, and she seems to hate every line she has to say. She is also pregnant and is therefore in bed most of the time / separate from the rest of the cast generally (completely understandable IRL, but it hurts the story so… )

…It is out there, but the writers should’ve found a way to ”transfer” Cordy’s essence into someone elses body. As soon as they knew CC was pregnant and that it was a high-risk pregnancy, get her off the screen. For her own sake if nothing else.

Maybe in Spin the bottle or something, they could’ve had the magic go wrong and replace her with another actress.

Preferably it should’ve been when she came back from the higher plane, but I suppose they didn’t know at the time CC was pregnant.

Basically, the story is fine, but CC can’t or won’t perform it.


Also… I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, whoever decided that Cordy should make out with the Beast and say « give mama some sugar », should never get to write again. CC is bad in this season, but for crying out loud, give her something to work with!

In a similar vein, re-write the baby reveal scene. Awful.

It always seemed pretty clear that Jasmine was trying to help humanity and that Angel screwed that up.

Wow, couldn’t disagree more with all this and the interpretation of Jasmine as Christ, not the Antichrist. Lol, but then your interpretation of the devil and the Antichrist is definitely not what is taught in my church.

That Wolfram and Hart tried to stop it does not mean she is a force for good, it just means she is a rival evil that will put them out of business.

 

[November]

I am doing a rewatch too and couldn't put it articulately that Charisma was just an awful actress in this whole Jasmine arc. They should have left her on the higher plain at the end of s3 instead.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I’m sorry, when I say Antichrist, I mean the pop-culture version of the Antichrist, or “The Omen.” Or the Moon Child from LXG, if you want to be cheeky about it. Not the biblical one, who is basically a persuasive cult leader who teaches errors.

As for if Jasmine is better understood as christ or antichrist, the problem is a matter of authority. I would say, the Powers are presented as operating within rules, which even Jasmine admits she is breaking. We really know nothing about the Powers, so maybe they are just sufficiently advanced aliens who are willing to do nice things for humanity in exchange for human souls, and their price is thought to be reasonable. But that’s not really a God, that’s just an elf with goodies. It also doesn’t really fill me with confidence that she is basically using the Anti-Life Equation. Which is ironic, as she does end up a greasy smear on someone's fist. But it is an open question.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The Powers That Be are written like the Fates of Greek and Roman mythology. These were people who had enormous power and could occasionally be persuaded to intervene on behalf of some mortal but in general, they were not all that concerned about people or what people wanted. An example of the fates in another TV show is the Kali sequence in Sanctuary where a massive tidal wave is headed for India, Pakistan and the Middle East and local African nations. In this story, the Sanctuary convinces Kali to stop the wave by generating a counter-wave that nullifies it.

The fates are usually neutral about people, neither opting for wanton destruction or assistance of any kind but can be persuaded through gifts or risk or sacrifice to intervene when they want to do it.

 

[Kendar]

When it comes to Jasmine, it is important to note that the number of people she is consuming at one time is increasing. She starts with one, then two.. and by the last time we see it she has a whole room full. And we weren't shown any reason to believe that the number would stop increasing. How long before she's eating full stadiums, then full cities?