Is "The Avengers" a little overrated?

[Robb Stark]

Just a little.

Don't get me wrong, I really, really like The Avengers, and I enjoy it every time I watch it. Seeing all of the individual Marvel stars on one screen together and how they interact is awesome, and I think it's very safe to say that Avengers lived up to the remarkable hype it had heading into its release. The dialogue between characters is classic Joss, and on the whole I think it's a great film.

That said, I don't think it's the best superhero movie ever. All three of the Nolan Batman movies, I felt, were better, had far more emotional resonance. While the acting in Avengers in terrific, I thought that Batman cast was stronger in that field. I also think that "Captain America: Winter Soldier" is a better movie than Avengers, and had far deeper themes.

Avengers is great, but when I think about it, it does a lot of relatively generic things really, really well, whereas I thought all three Batman films, Winter Soldier and even the first Iron Man added something new. I mean, the plot of Avengers is fairly simple. The alien invasion looked VERY similar to the bad guys from Transformers 3, and at times I felt it bordered on the silly (we're going to NUKE New York!!!!...really?).

Again, I'm NOT knocking it. I do think it's one of the top five superheroes out there, but the way people talk about it at times, it's like it's one of the greatest movies ever made, which I don't think is a fair assessment.

 

[Xin Rong]

Just a little.

Don't get me wrong, I really, really like The Avengers, and I enjoy it every time I watch it. Seeing all of the individual Marvel stars on one screen together and how they interact is awesome, and I think it's very safe to say that Avengers lived up to the remarkable hype it had heading into its release. The dialogue between characters is classic Joss, and on the whole I think it's a great film.

That said, I don't think it's the best superhero movie ever. All three of the Nolan Batman movies, I felt, were better, had far more emotional resonance. While the acting in Avengers in terrific, I thought that Batman cast was stronger in that field. I also think that "Captain America: Winter Soldier" is a better movie than Avengers, and had far deeper themes.

Avengers is great, but when I think about it, it does a lot of relatively generic things really, really well, whereas I thought all three Batman films, Winter Soldier and even the first Iron Man added something new. I mean, the plot of Avengers is fairly simple. The alien invasion looked VERY similar to the bad guys from Transformers 3, and at times I felt it bordered on the silly (we're going to NUKE New York!!!!...really?).

Again, I'm NOT knocking it. I do think it's one of the top five superheroes out there, but the way people talk about it at times, it's like it's one of the greatest movies ever made, which I don't think is a fair assessment.

I think the film is a little overrated, but then it is brilliant. I would argue that Batman Begins and the 3rd Batman film are far more overrated though, especially the latter.I find the idea of the Government potentially nuking NY far more believable than 1000s of police offices living underground for months and surviving, or someone recovering from broken back in a very short period of time...

Avengers does have a lot of hype, and I think there are better superhero films, but I don't think I'll ever have the OMG response with another film that I had when I watched Avengers for the first time

 

[Robb Stark]

I think the film is a little overrated, but then it is brilliant. I would argue that Batman Begins and the 3rd Batman film are far more overrated though, especially the latter.I find the idea of the Government potentially nuking NY far more believable than 1000s of police offices living underground for months and surviving, or someone recovering from broken back in a very short period of time...

Avengers does have a lot of hype, and I think there are better superhero films, but I don't think I'll ever have the OMG response with another film that I had when I watched Avengers for the first time

I can't conceive of any scenario, EVER, where the American government would even contemplate droping a nuclear weapon on New York City. Even if someone conquered it, that would just never ever happen. It would kill like 15 million people.

In Dark Knight Rises, they do explain that food is regularly dropped into the police officers. To me, that's far more believable than America nuking New York. As for Batman's broken back, yeah, I can see what you mean, although it is supposed to take place over a period of months, and Batman isn't exactly a normal human being.

 

[Xin Rong]

I can't conceive of any scenario, EVER, where the American government would even contemplate droping a nuclear weapon on New York City. Even if someone conquered it, that would just never ever happen. It would kill like 15 million people.

In Dark Knight Rises, they do explain that food is regularly dropped into the police officers. To me, that's far more believable than America nuking New York. As for Batman's broken back, yeah, I can see what you mean, although it is supposed to take place over a period of months, and Batman isn't exactly a normal human being.

Batman is a normal human being though, he doesn't have any Wolverine type healing powers, that's why it's so stupid, plus when he gets out he seem to magically reappear in Gotham within a very short amount of time, how did he get there from what appears to be a prison in Asia?

Yes they explain that they are being smuggled food, but the idea that 1000s of police officers can survive in the sewers without finding a means of escape, but can somehow be smuggled enough food for them all to survive on is laughable.

America dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan for 'the greater good'... it would sooooo drop a nuke on any city of its own if it meant saving the rest of the world, which includes them.

 

[sk]

I consider The Avengers being yet another superhero movie.
Never really got what made that one particular better than most of the others.

It's a good superhero movie though, fun to watch, very well made.
But then... most of them are these days.

Not sure if that makes it overrated or not though.

/SK

 

[Robb Stark]

Batman is a normal human being though, he doesn't have any Wolverine type healing powers, that's why it's so stupid, plus when he gets out he seem to magically reappear in Gotham within a very short amount of time, how did he get there from what appears to be a prison in Asia?

Yes they explain that they are being smuggled food, but the idea that 1000s of police officers can survive in the sewers without finding a means of escape, but can somehow be smuggled enough food for them all to survive on is laughable.

America dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan for 'the greater good'... it would sooooo drop a nuke on any city of its own if it meant saving the rest of the world, which includes them.

Well...Japan was an enemy we had been fighting for years. The aliens had attacked New York for what? A day? And they're ready to use nuclear weapons against their own people? Come on now. THAT is laughable.

I think questioning how Batman returns to Gotham is seriously nitpicking. He's Batman. He's a genius with millions of dollars and global connections. That's not even implausible to me. And, as it's shown, it takes place over months. And no, he's not Wolverine, and I'm not saying his healing is totally realistic, but it does take place over time and even without powers Batman isn't exactly your average person. Iron Man, even without his armor, takes a number of bumps in his own movies that aren't really physically possible to just get up from. I don't really see how those kill the movie for you but a secret, shadowy intergovernmental super council (which doesn't exist) suddenly approving nuclear bombs against New York (where is The President, if we're nitpicking? He's the only person alive who can authorize nuclear weapons. What council decides that?) and tens of millions of Americans in a matter of hours without even using the might of the American military doesn't.

I do accept that in any superhero movie, there are obviously going to be instances where things aren't totally realistic. That doesn't bother me. But nukes in New York? That was one instance I felt, as I said in the OP, bordered on the silly. Far more than Bruce Wayne healing faster than most men or police officers surviving through a winter in tough conditions.

 

[Xin Rong]

Well...Japan was an enemy we had been fighting for years. The aliens had attacked New York for what? A day? And they're ready to use nuclear weapons against their own people? Come on now. THAT is laughable.

I think questioning how Batman returns to Gotham is seriously nitpicking. He's Batman. He's a genius with millions of dollars and global connections. That's not even implausible to me. And, as it's shown, it takes place over months. And no, he's not Wolverine, and I'm not saying his healing is totally realistic, but it does take place over time and even without powers Batman isn't exactly your average person. Iron Man, even without his armor, takes a number of bumps in his own movies that aren't really physically possible to just get up from. I don't really see how those kill the movie for you but a secret, shadowy intergovernmental super council (which doesn't exist) suddenly approving nuclear bombs against New York (where is The President, if we're nitpicking? He's the only person alive who can authorize nuclear weapons. What council decides that?) and tens of millions of Americans in a matter of hours without even using the might of the American military doesn't.

I do accept that in any superhero movie, there are obviously going to be instances where things aren't totally realistic. That doesn't bother me. But nukes in New York? That was one instance I felt, as I said in the OP, bordered on the silly. Far more than Bruce Wayne healing faster than most men or police officers surviving through a winter in tough conditions.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I personally think it's incredibly viable that any country would Nuke one city in order to save the rest, especially as a response to the unknown... plus within the MCU, one alien invaded in Thor land it leveled a whole town, so thousands of invaders, from the narrow perspective of the coucil, is potentially thousands of times more destructive.

The President is the only person allowed to authorise Nukes in our reality, not in the MCU, where SHIELD is seen to have a high level of autonomy in that regard.

Also, The Avengers only averted the invasion thanks to Black Widow being able to close the portal, if that hadn't happened then a Nuke would have been the best option, and if you've seen Captain America 2, the council may have well been led or unfluenced by HYDRA who would have no problem with levelling a city, just as they had no problem giving the go ahead for a super sniper type system that can take out anyone, anywhere, at anytime.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

Avengers does have a lot of hype, and I think there are better superhero films, but I don't think I'll ever have the OMG response with another film that I had when I watched Avengers for the first time

That's the most important point. The film was quite generic in its plot but so, on some level, is every story ever told, in any medium. Every story we're ever told follows the same basic pattern, what set them apart from each other is something I don't think you can put your finger on but I believe it's how the story is told rather than what the story is or what themes it deals with or how believable it is.

I enjoyed Avengers a hell of a lot and despite one or two questionable plot points, I've never actually felt the need to nitpick (which I do with a lot of films), I think because the film tells its story very well, so it's an easy one to just enjoy.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I personally think it's incredibly viable that any country would Nuke one city in order to save the rest, especially as a response to the unknown... plus within the MCU, one alien invaded in Thor land it leveled a whole town, so thousands of invaders, from the narrow perspective of the coucil, is potentially thousands of times more destructive.

The President is the only person allowed to authorise Nukes in our reality, not in the MCU, where SHIELD is seen to have a high level of autonomy in that regard.

Also, The Avengers only averted the invasion thanks to Black Widow being able to close the portal, if that hadn't happened then a Nuke would have been the best option, and if you've seen Captain America 2, the council may have well been led or unfluenced by HYDRA who would have no problem with levelling a city, just as they had no problem giving the go ahead for a super sniper type system that can take out anyone, anywhere, at anytime.

Exactly, the world is being invaded by unknown but extremely hostile and destructive beings, any government or security service that didn't consider the nuclear option - even despite the cost to their own citizens - in order to save the entire rest of the world, is either far too principled or stupid.

 

[thetopher]

Nope.

The Avengers isn't just a superhero movie- it's a movie where a bunch of superheroes get together to save the day.
That had never successfully been done before (I don't think)-and that's what makes it brilliantly unique, not the plot or the acting or anything.
I mean, we had a five film build up to this- and I remember a lot of people predicting that the film was gonna suck beyond the telling of it. (Mainly Joss Whedon bashers it has to be said.)
I used to dream of superhero team-up movies, but before this we just had cartoons (such as World's Finest) or lame tv movies (The Incredible Hulk vs. Thor/ Daredevil or whatever.) but in the Avengers we get Thor vs. Iron Man vs. Captain America, Thor vs. Hulk, Black Widow vs. Hawkeye, plus lots of great dialogue scenes (especially with Loki.)

Every character gets a chance to shine, a good line, a cool move or something memorable to do. (even Coulson, Hill and Fury)

And it's funny. I mean laugh out load funny, and the action rocks better than any of the Transformer movies. I can't think of any movie that has all of those elements and combines them so successfully.

And the thing about the Nolan Batman movies (and I like them, generally)- I don't really see them as 'superhero' movies, they're more akin to crime thrillers that just happen to have Batman in them. It's only with the third (faintly ridiculous) movie that we have any really outlandish elements introduced.

Batman, Scarecrow, Rhas Al Ghul, The Joker are all really gritty, almost real world like figures, which is fine, but it doesn't say 'superhero' to me.
And we see how well the Nolan style translates in Man Of Steel, which was the worst Superman movies I've seen in a while.

 

[Kean]

Honestly, the further we move away from Nolan's Batman the less I enjoy it. Dark Knigt is a classic, but the other two? I don't think I could sit through them again. For me, they feel like an event when you first see them, and then like work during every other viewing. Whereas Avengers is in no way a perfect film but feck me if I don't enjoy the crap out of watching it. It's definitely my most watch superhero film. When Winter's Soldier came out I said it was the best Marvel film to date, and I still think that, but Avengers is still the one that I go to whenever I just want to be entertained.

So no, I don't think it is overrated because it is still fun to watch that film, 2 years later.

 

[JCoatsworth]

As far as superhero movies based on comic books go, I don't think it's overrated and definitely deserves the praise it got. But compared to some other movies out there, I think it is.
Let's look as The Shawshank Redemtion, for example. It's IMDb's highest rated movie, and, while it's not my favorite movie, I think the movie is almost perfect, and not overrated at all. It's just an amazing story, wonderfully brought to the screen, and I guess most people can enjoy it.
The Avengers, on the other hand, doesn't really have a terrific story. However, Joss Whedon did an amazing job bringing it to the screen. And I think that's what makes The Avengers great. The story might not be revolutionary, and neither are the special effects or the acting, but it's an amazing achievement making a 2.5-hour film about a team of superheroes and not screwing it up.

Honestly, the further we move away from Nolan's Batman the less I enjoy it. Dark Knigt is a classic, but the other two?

I disagree. I think all of Nolan's Batman movies are excellent. Especially Batman Begins. But I don't really think you can compare Nolan's Batman with The Avengers. Although they're both based on comic books, they're completely different, in my opinion. I enjoy both the Dark Knight trilogy and The Avengers, but for different reasons.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I think it just depends on what you want out of you superhero movies. If you are looking for something darker than The Dark Knight is better. If you want something more light and comedic then The Avengers is great. The Winter Soldier is probably a better film than The Avengers because it has some light comedic moments but also some drama with a little bit of a detective mystery aspect. And the ending has real consequences as opposed to The Avengers where it only really affects Tony Stark. So is The Avenger's overrated? Slightly but it really all depends on our different views of movies. Every one is different.

 

[Xin Rong]

Robb Stark disagrees: I think you just said it yourself. Using a nuclear bomb against "the unknown" is stupid. Killing the millions in New York when you don't even know what the enemy is is stupid.

People, and Governments, can be stupid - that's the point, and it was actually the best thing to do in the Avengers with the information they had, if Black Widow had not been there then the world would now be invaded and conquered, if not for the nuke

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Avengers doesn't really set out to be anything more than a damn good time at the movies, and I love it for it. It's not an especially deep or innovative film by any stretch, but it's rather like the action movies of old like Aliens or Die Hard in that it isn't mindless either. It has fun, likeable characters and not any gaping plot holes like Bayformers or other contemporary summer blockbusters.

That being said, I think it (and the Marvel films in general) are vastly overrated. I loved Avengers, don't get me wrong, and CA:WA and IM1 were both great as well, but the others that I've seen (IM2, Thord, CA:FA) seemed like standard popcorn fluff that exist to move around the goal posts to set up the team up films. And if I didn't like those, I doubt I will like IM3 and Thor 2, both of which I haven't heard many good things about. It probably has to do with most of my Marvel love being reserved for Spider-Man and the X-Men; I love the Avengers as a team, but their individual corners of the MU don't really interest me that much.

On the other hand, the Nolan Bat Films leave me cold as well. Despite the fact that they're dated and campy, I still prefer the Tim Burton films because they never took themselves too seriously and embraced the absurdity of the mythos while still having some pretty dark and nihilistic themes. Nolan's approach seems to have sucked all the fun and color from the Batverse: the Joker looks like a generic crazy dude in clown makeup instead of the Clown Prince of Crime, Harvey Dent's character arc is way too rushed and his childhood abuse/psychological issues aren't really touched upon beforehand, and I guess actually referring to Selina Kyle as "Catwoman" was too much to ask for. And aside from her, all the female characters are bland plot devices or ignored entirely. The Dark Knight choosing to focus on Gordon's relationship with his son instead of his daughter, Barbara, as in the comics still skeeves me every time I watch it.

And although Man of Steel is very flawed, I still really liked it. More than most of the Marvel movies in fact. I have no idea why it receives as much vitriol as it gets.

 

[Robb Stark]

Nope.

The Avengers isn't just a superhero movie- it's a movie where a bunch of superheroes get together to save the day.
That had never successfully been done before (I don't think)-and that's what makes it brilliantly unique, not the plot or the acting or anything.
I mean, we had a five film build up to this- and I remember a lot of people predicting that the film was gonna suck beyond the telling of it. (Mainly Joss Whedon bashers it has to be said.)
I used to dream of superhero team-up movies, but before this we just had cartoons (such as World's Finest) or lame tv movies (The Incredible Hulk vs. Thor/ Daredevil or whatever.) but in the Avengers we get Thor vs. Iron Man vs. Captain America, Thor vs. Hulk, Black Widow vs. Hawkeye, plus lots of great dialogue scenes (especially with Loki.)

Every character gets a chance to shine, a good line, a cool move or something memorable to do. (even Coulson, Hill and Fury)

And it's funny. I mean laugh out load funny, and the action rocks better than any of the Transformer movies. I can't think of any movie that has all of those elements and combines them so successfully.

And the thing about the Nolan Batman movies (and I like them, generally)- I don't really see them as 'superhero' movies, they're more akin to crime thrillers that just happen to have Batman in them. It's only with the third (faintly ridiculous) movie that we have any really outlandish elements introduced.

Batman, Scarecrow, Rhas Al Ghul, The Joker are all really gritty, almost real world like figures, which is fine, but it doesn't say 'superhero' to me.
And we see how well the Nolan style translates in Man Of Steel, which was the worst Superman movies I've seen in a while.

I agree that The Avengers has a very cool wow factor that is always enjoyable, and as I said I found it extremely cool seeing all of the individual MCU stars together on one screen. And it is funny, but Thor is funny. The first Iron Man is funny. I don't know if humor and the effect of having all of the stars finally together on one screen is enough, for me, to say it's the greatest superhero movie out there. Even if you discount Batman (and I do think they're superhero movies, but I suppose that's a personal interpretation thing), I felt that Captain America 2 had a far better and more complex plot and just a better movie. I guess it's a taste thing.

As a sidebar I don't really see what the point of mentioning Superman was. The movie is garbage, agreed, but I didn't mention it or compare it to Avengers at all. Avengers is a vastly superior movie to Superman.

And when I compared the aliens to the transformers, I was talking more about how generic they were. They were just something for The Avengers to beat up on. There was nothing unique or cool about them.

As for the characters getting a chance to shine...I agree for the most part, but there were some dumb parts as well, mostly with Hawkeye. I'm a huge Avengers fan in the comics, but many of the Hawkeye trick shots were a little too ridiculous for me (although I loved his fight with Black Widow).

Again, I'm not bashing this movie. I really like and enjoy it and think it's awesome. I just think it's a little simple for the otherworldly praise it gets at times.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I also dont think it's overrated. Mostly cuz I dont think people bill it as the greatest movie ever, it earned it's hype from a build up of of all the ones before it.

I think Winter Soldier is the best superhero movie we've ever had, in terms of being an actual movie it trounces Avengers, but there's something about Avengers that makes it's hype feel earned.

Honestly I think the part that feels most over hyped is probably Joss. People give him a lot of the credit, which he deserves as the movie is a fantastic mix of comedy and superhero story, but I imagine it would still have had the exact same box office appeal no matter who directed.
I think Joss did a fantastic job, but if I had to choose one thing that might have been over hyped I'd say that rather than the movie, Like Winter Soldier is a much better movie than Avengers. It's got a much better story but it's just as funny, and the actions fantastic. Had they had one of the other writers do the Avengers I'd imagine it would still do the same as it wasn't just about Avengers being a good story, it was the build up, the pay off of every after credits scene.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

No, it's just another superhero movie to me. It's a team of heroes rather than just one hero, wow...so what. It's just on a slightly grander scale than the average superhero movie, that's all. It still uses all of the same redundant and hackneyed tropes and devices of all other superhero movies. There is a formula for that at this point, and it doesn't deviate far from it. Big destructive climactic fight sequences, liberal doses of CGI, plot formulae I could go on and on and on. Any differences from most other comic movies are superficial.

That said, I enjoyed the time I spent watching it...I kept it all in context and perspective. I knew what I was going into and I wasn't expecting anything unrealistic. It's a popcorn flick, it's a superhero movie, you don't get anything revalotory/significant/thought provoking from it (which is the kind of thing I prefer). It's just a little relaxing entertainment, and I personally get the most from those things when I leave my more critical mind at home. So I had a good time watching it. But it wasn't a different experience in real substance from many other comic movies.

When it comes to these things Hollywood definitely has a formula, and it is based on maximizing profit. I'm not saying there is something wrong with that. The consequence though is that they tend to lean hard in the direction of what has worked before and was popular/made money in the past, and it makes them reticent to explore genuinely new approaches (new things are risky because it is as yet unproven, it could go wrong, and the largely dumb masses and fan base might not "get it", which in the end can cost the makers profit). So with these kinds of movies you at best/at most get variations on things that have worked in the past versus true innovation.

I haven't paid attention to the buzz about the Avengers. If people are saying it was entertaining, I agree. If people are saying it's one of the best comic movies ever, not really (not in a way that make that distinction meaningful or worth anything). It's essentially the same thing to me (with a little better execution). So I guess Avengers is overrated in that sense (if that is what the majority thinks).

I would choose The second Nolan Batman as the best I've seen. Largely based on the effort of Heath Ledger. His portrayal/interpretation of the Joker got me thinking about the nature of the Joker differently, about his relationship to Batman differently, and about many other things (e.g. morality believe it or not) in a new and refreshing light. That's what really distinguishes that movie for me. And everything else (and the rest of the cast) was solid. A lot of people like that movie a lot, and I would say that it is not overrated.

And I haven't seen every comic book movie. A good amount, but not every one.

 

[white avenger]

Yes, it was overrated artistically, but it made several tons of money for Walt Disney Studios, so no one there is really complaining. You know what they say about money talking.

As for the nuke fired at the U S city, I agree, the idea, that early into the invasion, was totally absurd. On the other hand, it was a great plot device, and just about the only explanation of how Iron Man could so easily obtain such a weapon to strike the final decisive blow against the invaders. There's a limit to how much even the Hulk can smash.

 

[Xin Rong]

I think with the Avengers, a lot of the hype is based on the result... The comic book movies are exploding now, which is great, and in a lot of ways they are going from strength to strength, and going beyond the standard remit of comic book movies, even if Avengers doesn't necessarily do that, it has helped to facilitate this change, although I agree with Robb Stark, and would say that the Dark Knight also contributed to this.

I read an interesting article recently about Marvel saving Hollywood by reinvigorating not only the comic book genre, but many others as well.

The article basically cites Captain America 2 as reimagining the spy/espionage film, Thor 2 as a fantasy, The Amazing Spiderman 2 as a romcom, Guardians of the Galaxy as a Star Warsesque film. I don't necessarily agree with the article totally but I do think the success of The Avengers is spawning some very interesting changes within Hollywood, and, for the most part, I see these as positive changes.

 

[Kean]

I also dont think it's overrated. Mostly cuz I dont think people bill it as the greatest movie ever, it earned it's hype from a build up of of all the ones before it.

I think Winter Soldier is the best superhero movie we've ever had, in terms of being an actual movie it trounces Avengers, but there's something about Avengers that makes it's hype feel earned.

Honestly I think the part that feels most over hyped is probably Joss. People give him a lot of the credit, which he deserves as the movie is a fantastic mix of comedy and superhero story, but I imagine it would still have had the exact same box office appeal no matter who directed.
I think Joss did a fantastic job, but if I had to choose one thing that might have been over hyped I'd say that rather than the movie, Like Winter Soldier is a much better movie than Avengers. It's got a much better story but it's just as funny, and the actions fantastic. Had they had one of the other writers do the Avengers I'd imagine it would still do the same as it wasn't just about Avengers being a good story, it was the build up, the pay off of every after credits scene.

I always wonder is Joss actually over hyped (specifically with the Avengers) or do we just feel he is because we note every bit of media he gets. Most people I know don't have a clue who wrote/directed the Avengers. And if I told them it was Joss Whedon to them they wouldn't have notion who I'm talking about. In much the same way I can't tell you who wrote/directed Winter's Soldier, but I can tell you I enjoyed it tremendously and think it's the best Marvel have produced. But whoever did write and direct it, do they have a fanbase off in some corner of the net, noting their every move?