Season 5 of Angel, Is Giles in Character?

[KaitKat]

I was watching Shells for the first time in awhile today and was wondering if anyone else thinks Giles is out of character? If you agree that he is do you think it’s simply to serve the plot or do you think it fits into the larger theme of Season 5?

We all know that during crossover episodes the characterizations aren’t always perfect but Giles refusing to help Angel save Fred seems wildly out of character to me. He at one point was willing to sacrifice both Dawn and Spike for the fate of the world now he won’t help one girl to save it simply to draw hard lines with Angel. From the emotional aspect that we as viewers see he seems cruel for not helping a beloved character but putting that aside and looking at it logically like Watchers and historically Giles are supposed to do Illyria is dangerous, could easily destroy the world and needs to be stopped. Do you agree that Giles was wrong not to help or do you think he was right to keep his people as far away from Wolfram and Hart as possible?

If you agree that Giles was out of character do you think that it was simply done so that it would be easy to explain why there isn’t an army of Slayers to help in Not Fade Away? Or do you think that it fits in with the themes of Season 5? In Season 5 we explore if our heros can change Wolfram and Hart or if Wolfram and Hart will change our characters, can the same be said about Giles and the Council? Watching this episode I’m reminded of The Zeppo where the council won’t share vital information with Giles about the Hellmouth opening despite the potential consequences to draw a hard line with Giles, is Giles doing the same thing? Did he become Quinten Travers when he took over his position?

If you think it is in character for Giles do you think he is looking at the large picture or is he simply glad the Angel and Spike are both out of Buffy’s life and wants to keep it that way?

 

[Dogs of Winter]

I love a lot of the cross over eps, but they were mainly done to service a current plot line rather than with any view to a consistent mythology.

I don’t usually have a problem with that - the Buffyverse was always more interested in emotional impact over logic. But it doesn’t make sense how so soon after Chosen when Spike had sacrificed himself to save the world and Angel had provided them with the means of doing it, that the Scoobies would cut all ties because they had taken over the Wolfram + Hart office.
Did the Scoobies even reach out to ask Team Angel what they were hoping to achieve and why?

But then it doesn’t really make sense that Buffy wouldn’t reach out to Spike at all in S5. Regardless of whether she loved him or not he had been prepared to sacrifice himself to save the world mainly due to Buffy being in said world. Surely that deserves a visit.
If SMG wasnt available it wouldnt even need to be on camera. It could have been Spike asking Angel if he had seen Buffy recently, and then gloating that he had 🙂

 

[KaitKat]

I love a lot of the cross over eps, but they were mainly done to service a current plot line rather than with any view to a consistent mythology.

I don’t usually have a problem with that - the Buffyverse was always more interested in emotional impact over logic. But it doesn’t make sense how so soon after Chosen when Spike had sacrificed himself to save the world and Angel had provided them with the means of doing it, that the Scoobies would cut all ties because they had taken over the Wolfram + Hart office.
Did the Scoobies even reach out to ask Team Angel what they were hoping to achieve and why?

But then it doesn’t really make sense that Buffy wouldn’t reach out to Spike at all in S5. Regardless of whether she loved him or not he had been prepared to sacrifice himself to save the world mainly due to Buffy being in said world. Surely that deserves a visit.
If SMG wasnt available it wouldnt even need to be on camera. It could have been Spike asking Angel if he had seen Buffy recently, and then gloating that he had 🙂

I agree I’m fairly certain that Buffy doesn’t know that Spike is back so that could explain that but even Damage annoyed me because Dana is an issue because of the spell that the Scoobies all agreed to have Willow cast. I love Chosen but any sane person could see the potential consequences of that spell and the AI people were cleaning up the Scoobies’ mess. I can see Giles having that opinion of Angel and Spike for the sole reason that the joined Wolfram & Hart but if he honestly thought one of the worst vampires in history was evil again shouldn’t he send a Slayer to take care of it? Or he could send someone more competent than Andrew to find out what is actually going on.

 

[Faded90]

I love a lot of the cross over eps, but they were mainly done to service a current plot line rather than with any view to a consistent mythology.

I don’t usually have a problem with that - the Buffyverse was always more interested in emotional impact over logic. But it doesn’t make sense how so soon after Chosen when Spike had sacrificed himself to save the world and Angel had provided them with the means of doing it, that the Scoobies would cut all ties because they had taken over the Wolfram + Hart office.
Did the Scoobies even reach out to ask Team Angel what they were hoping to achieve and why?

But then it doesn’t really make sense that Buffy wouldn’t reach out to Spike at all in S5. Regardless of whether she loved him or not he had been prepared to sacrifice himself to save the world mainly due to Buffy being in said world. Surely that deserves a visit.
If SMG wasnt available it wouldnt even need to be on camera. It could have been Spike asking Angel if he had seen Buffy recently, and then gloating that he had 🙂

Buffy doesn’t know Spike’s back. He has his whole ‘I was a hero to her and if she knew I was back then I wouldn’t be’. It feels like a lot of regression as it means Spike now values his own ego over the fact Buffy may possibly be grieving for him

I noticed on the TGIQ thread that people thought the episode was a bit mean towards Buffy’s character but I actually found every mention of the scoobies in S5 mean towards all of them. It obviously gets to do that now they’re offscreen and we don’t see the scoobies side. Personally I think it makes sense that they’d be just keeping out of Angel’s stuff. Especially after Buffy/Angel’s agreement in Yoko Factor that they don’t live in each other’s worlds anymore. I headcanon pretty much every word Andrew says as just Andrew bring Andrew. Overblowing his own importance and telling stories. Giles also doesn’t just send Andrew, he sends a whole team of slayers and I think it makes sense that actually it’s THEM in charge of the mission - not Andrew. Andrews whole ‘oh she loves both you guys’ makes no sense, Buffy is possibly the most private character in the whole verse and now apparently she’s opening up to Andrew, someone she could barely tolerate in S7. I don’t buy that she’s living with him either. Which is why I think it’s all a load of lies

Regarding the Giles stuff I’m meh about him not saving Fred. He doesn’t know her, she works for W&H and Giles is able to make colder decisions than the rest of the scoobies. What I don’t buy is him apparently just allowing the birth of an Old One happen - that’s where Giles’ worries would lie. I still don’t particularly think badly of Giles though (and certainly not the rest of the scoobies) in S5 Team Angel think they can have the best of both worlds but the whole theme of the season is that actually they can’t. Consequences come with the choices they made

 

[Stake fodder]

I thought it was at least partly that Giles couldn't help than that he wouldn't. Who Angel really wanted was Willow, because they were hoping they could re-ensoul Fred into Illyria, but Willow was apparently unavailable.

But there's certainly a lack of urgency and skepticism from Giles, from what we can hear on Angel's end, and I would agree that that's out of character, especially if he's essentially the head of the Watchers Council now. I don't know, maybe Giles thinks if Angel could handle Jasmine, Illyria should be no problem.

If you agree that Giles was out of character do you think that it was simply done so that it would be easy to explain why there isn’t an army of Slayers to help in Not Fade Away? Or do you think that it fits in with the themes of Season 5? In Season 5 we explore if our heros can change Wolfram and Hart or if Wolfram and Hart will change our characters, can the same be said about Giles and the Council?

I love your idea that it was to fit a theme, but I think it was just done to justify the Scoobies being out of it.