Question Vampires.

JimmyHall

JimmyHall

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Maybe someone out there with more Buffyverse knowledge than I, can answer this question. Does being a vampire automatically make you evil?

Souls? Humans have souls in the Buffyverse right? Yet humans do evil things right and left. I don't think the soul argument can really hold up at the end of the day.

Also when The Master turned Darla he wasn't that old at the time. Yet his face was still demonic. Is that just a him thing or do all vampires look like that when they reach a certain age?
 
JimmyHall said:
Maybe someone out there with more Buffyverse knowledge than I, can answer this question. Does being a vampire automatically make you evil?
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From what we've seen- absolutely YES. People who are nice and decent when they are human turn into complete monsters when they're turned. Willow, Xander, Drusilla, little children- all of them become vicious killers.

Souls- in the Buffyverse- don't equate 'good', they do equate 'choice'- the ability to reason morally and decide to do good or evil.
You get evil humans like Ethan Rayne or Warren or Mayor Wilkins but they are- to a degree- three dimensional about choosing their own path; chaos, ambition, greed, whatever.
Vampires don't really get that choice; its just degrees of evil.
 
What about Spike? Despite that chip in his head. He still decided to help Buffy and the gang. Of course wanting to bang Buffy was a motivator. (Not that I can blame him.)
 
So if I was a vampire with a soul I could DECIDE whether or not to rip little orphan Annie's head off. Instead of just doing it. I don't know about that...
 
The soul in the Buffyverse seems to be somewhat analogous to a conscience, or the lack of ability, or maybe just desire, to differentiate right from wrong. Basically, if it feels good, do it, and if you want it, take it. (Come to think of it, that sounds kind of like Faith's motto, "Want. Take. Have.") Given that kind of attitude, a predator whose natural food source is human blood is certainly a threat. From a human point of view, that would indeed make a vampire evil. Of course, by that definition, from an antelope's point of view, a lion is also evil.

On the other hand, if evil is defined by one's actions, who is more evil, the vampire, newly risen from the grave, who has, at that moment, never harmed anyone or anything, or Buffy, who dusts them? Basically, Buffy is killing the equivalent of a newborn baby on the assumption that it will grow up to be a murderer.

Vampires should start a movement called "Unlives Matter."
 
white avenger said:
The soul in the Buffyverse seems to be somewhat analogous to a conscience, or the lack of ability, or maybe just desire, to differentiate right from wrong. Basically, if it feels good, do it, and if you want it, take it. (Come to think of it, that sounds kind of like Faith's motto, "Want. Take. Have.") Given that kind of attitude, a predator whose natural food source is human blood is certainly a threat. From a human point of view, that would indeed make a vampire evil. Of course, by that definition, from an antelope's point of view, a lion is also evil.

On the other hand, if evil is defined by one's actions, who is more evil, the vampire, newly risen from the grave, who has, at that moment, never harmed anyone or anything, or Buffy, who dusts them? Basically, Buffy is killing the equivalent of a newborn baby on the assumption that it will grow up to be a murderer.

Vampires should start a movement called "Unlives Matter."
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I love this. xD Take this like good sir, madam, or attack helicopter. I don't want to assume your gender after all. XD
 
I pretty much agree with what the others have said about the soul thing. Vampires have varying degrees of evilness. Not all vamps are as bad as Angelus and not all vamps are like Harmony. lol. Although she was more incompetent than "less evil". lol.

JimmyHall said:
Also when The Master turned Darla he wasn't that old at the time. Yet his face was still demonic. Is that just a him thing or do all vampires look like that when they reach a certain age?
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The Master I believe is one of the oldest vampires. He was really old when he turned Darla and Darla was 400 years old. But in the episode "Faith, Hope and Trick" Giles tells Buffy that Kakistos is a vampire that is so old his hands and feet are cloven. I believe he said the name Kakistos meant oldest of the old. Or worst of the worst. Or something. lol. But basically that means that the older you get as a vampire the less human you start to look. Possibly they turn more into the vampire demon that is within them. I'm not sure if there is anything in the comics that talk more about the vampire history and lore.
 
white avenger said:
The soul in the Buffyverse seems to be somewhat analogous to a conscience, or the lack of ability, or maybe just desire, to differentiate right from wrong. Basically, if it feels good, do it, and if you want it, take it. (Come to think of it, that sounds kind of like Faith's motto, "Want. Take. Have.") Given that kind of attitude, a predator whose natural food source is human blood is certainly a threat. From a human point of view, that would indeed make a vampire evil. Of course, by that definition, from an antelope's point of view, a lion is also evil.

On the other hand, if evil is defined by one's actions, who is more evil, the vampire, newly risen from the grave, who has, at that moment, never harmed anyone or anything, or Buffy, who dusts them? Basically, Buffy is killing the equivalent of a newborn baby on the assumption that it will grow up to be a murderer.

Vampires should start a movement called "Unlives Matter."
Click to expand...

Agree with all of this. I wish they had given a demon's perspective during the show, or perhaps the spin off should've focussed on the demon side of things so that you have two companion shows set in the same town but showing different perspectives?
 
I wish youtube had more of Drusilla's scenes. All I can find is her talking to her dead bird.
 
She needed a boat load more screen time. I dunno if the actress had problems with the director and writers..
 
Cause I'm pretty sure the reason Prue Halliwell was killed off in Charmed is because nobody liked the actress xD
 
JimmyHall said:
I wish youtube had more of Drusilla's scenes. All I can find is her talking to her dead bird.
 
She needed a boat load more screen time. I dunno if the actress had problems with the director and writers..
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Dru was definitely underused. Apparently Dru and Spike were supposed to be together/reunite post season 2 but the actress wasn't available hence why we got what we did. It was either Lovers' Walk or after that. I was informed of that by someone on here. Can't remember who though.
 
I am surprised there are not more fanfictions with them together post season 2. Weird.
 
JimmyHall said:
Cause I'm pretty sure the reason Prue Halliwell was killed off in Charmed is because nobody liked the actress xD
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I heard that was well, and about her being on another show (I think the one with the numbers 90210 or the Hawaii one I don't know something with numbers) and they didn't like working with her on their either. Fun fact Shannon and SMG are actually really good friends. But I don't think that that would have been the case with Juliet, she seems like a really lovely person in real life, wish I had the money to meet her last SupaNova 🙂
 
JimmyHall said:
What about Spike? Despite that chip in his head. He still decided to help Buffy and the gang.
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He was still evil though. The chip just curbed his murderous impulses with pain- and he STILL did evil things as best he could.

Even when he loved Buffy he still did evil things- 'As You Were' for example, and his lve for Buffy can be seen as toxic, actually hurting her when it wasn't actually his intent. Demon love is toxic to non-demons.

The whole 'Spike is a special snowflake who was good even without a soul' is never shown or explained by the writers, so for me I reject it as piss-poor writing. Spike was evil but- because of his psychological make-up (being love's bitch, etc) was capable of good and noble actions.

And lets not forget that Spike did lots of things out of love for Dru- truly monstrous, evil things. That's the problem with love as a motivator, it all depends on who you love. There's no inherent goodness about the motive itself...

white avenger said:
On the other hand, if evil is defined by one's actions, who is more evil, the vampire, newly risen from the grave, who has, at that moment, never harmed anyone or anything, or Buffy, who dusts them? Basically, Buffy is killing the equivalent of a newborn baby on the assumption that it will grow up to be a murderer.
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Exactly. If vampires aren't automatically considered evil then Buffy is turned into some insane zealot who quips and then kills potentially innocent vampires.

Then again if you take the show's basic premise that all vampires are evil then Buffy is still a heroine.
 
white avenger said:
Or, she is negligent in her duty and hypocritical by not only sparing several but actually taking two as lovers.
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When Buffy met Angel for the first time he had a soul, so he was the exception. We are shown and told WHY he is the exception.
And even then Buffy eventually did her duty as the slayer and sent Angel to hell to save the world.

But Buffy doesn't really have the same excuse with Spike, since she gave him countless chances to commit evil, so she was negligent/hypocritical there.
 
Spike could have easily rounded up a group of demons to go after Buffy and her friends. But he didn't. Because he wasn't evil? Nah.. Probably because he still wanted that amazing one on one throw down with her.
 
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