Why people hate Xander?

[November]

Xander reminds me of the drop kick "nice guys", I just dont enjoy his personality that much. Simple as that.

 

[XanderesqueMan]

It’s because Millennials and Gen X have grown up with a Xander in high school.

Loyal? Loving? Funny? Brave? Kind? I hope so. Everyone should be so lucky.

Also compared to other characters Xander is more ‘bland’. He isn’t a supernatural creature and doesn’t have an ability.

I suppose someone could see him that way. But he is, in fact, the bravest member of the Scooby Gang (given he has no powers or special knowledge, nor is he even a genius) and has been crucial to saving the world literally every time it's been necessary, and Buffy herself many times besides —

• Saved Buffy with CPR in "Prophecy Girl."
• Figured out the Judge could be killed with a rocket launcher in "Innocence."
• He kept Buffy from potentially being killed or taken by Angelus at the hospital in "Killed by Death."
• He didn't tell Buffy that Willow was trying to save Angel, ensuring she wouldn't hold back against Angelus and risk the end of the world in "Becoming."
• He stopped Jack and the zombies from blowing up the school (which would have killed Buffy and the others and allowed the Hellmouth to open) in "The Zeppo."
• His knowledge of military tactics was crucial to defeating the Mayor in "Graduation Day."
• It was his idea to combine Willow, Giles, and Buffy in "Primeval," which defeated Adam.
• He stopped the Bringers from getting Dawn when they assault the Summers house (I can't recall the episode right now, sorry.)
• He was crucial to slowing down Glory in "The Gift."
• He stopped Dark Willow in "Grave."

To name just a few times he's proven indispensible to the gang and Buffy herself.

 

[twoslayers]

The other thing actually about Xander: he hurts the women he's involved with, really needlessly. Hurts Cordelia by having a sort of affair with Willow, hurts Willow just as much (and as a bonus also hurts Oz for that matter), hurts Anya leaving her at the altar. All selfish, all needless. That's a big part of why I see him as kind of a jerk.

 

[XanderesqueMan]

The other thing actually about Xander: he hurts the women he's involved with, really needlessly. Hurts Cordelia by having a sort of affair with Willow, hurts Willow just as much (and as a bonus also hurts Oz for that matter), hurts Anya leaving her at the altar. All selfish, all needless. That's a big part of why I see him as kind of a jerk.

I can think of two things he's done wrong in relationships, both of which are completely normal, human things and understandable (which is not to say right.) He kissed Willow a few times after realizing he has feelings for his lifelong best friend, most notably when he thought the two of them were going to die at the hands of Spike. And he realized he wasn't ready for marriage too late when an external force exposed him to a vision of his personal nightmare—becoming his father and hurting the woman he loves. So his sins are a lack of control over newfound feelings for the person he loves most in the world and fear of being abusive. What a monster. 🙄

He also:

• Went with Buffy to fight vampires because Willow was in danger.
• Risked his life to rescue Jenny, Coredlia, and Willow from the Master's minions.
• Jumped through flames to save Cordelia.
• Confronted Buffy over her lack of empathy towards Anya, even physically stopping her from killing her.
• Tried to protect Willow and Anya from Olaf, a troll with superstrength.
• Refused to choose between Willow and Anya when Olaf threatened them.
• Kept Cordelia's secret that she was broke.
• Paid for Cordelia's prom dress in secret when she couldn't afford it.
• Protected Cordelia from a werewolf.
• After a love spell went awry (yes, his mistake), protected Cordelia from Harmony, a mob of girls, and even Drusilla.
• Kept Larry's secret that he was gay.
• Jumped on the back of a demon to protect Buffy.
• Got into a fight with a much larger, more muscular man to rescue Buffy from a cult.
• Faced off with Angelus when he threatened Buffy in the hospital.
• Faced off with Jack and the other zombies when he wanted to run away to save Buffy and Willow.
• Tried to get Faith the help she needed at great personal danger to himself.
• Risked his life to find and save Buffy from the Master, not knowing what he was walking into.
• Risked his life to rescue Willow from an Inca Mummy Girl.
• Helped save Faith by running a demon over.

Among a million other times we all know about that he risked life and limb for, or put aside his own feelings to protect and comfort, the women in his life. He's not perfect, but I think to call him a jerk as an overall judgement on his character isn't fair. If he's a jerk for a couple of mistakes, what is the rest of the cast, most of whom have done just as bad or worse? When we judge somebody's moral character, we generally weigh the balance of their actions, good and bad, and see what side the scale tilts most heavily towards. And, for Xander, that scale obviously selfless, brave, loyal, protective, and loving, despite there being some weight on the other side of the scale at times ('cause, you know, he's a human being.)

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I think a lot of the new Xander hate is just disguised Nick Brendon hate.

While the show was on, those of us who watched learned to like or dislike Xander.

A lot of newer fans come to a show starring a man they believe is lower than vile garbage. So they don't see anything good in him and won"t. Some are wilfully fauxmoralsuperiority obligated to hate Xander, even if he is being likeable. When you have this level of cult of moralistic obligation, nothing he ever does will be good enough for even tolerance.

Yes, Nick Brendon deserves at least some dislike and disgust, but Xander was a lot nicer than a lot of boys and men I have known especially young ones.

Still, just as seeing creepy child rapist Cordy affected Charisma's future career, real life Nick spilled over in the other direction into his perception as Xander.

People separate reality and fiction quite poorly.

Actor Paul Johansson was attacked for the actions of his character, semi-villain Dan Scott.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

@thrasherpix he wasn’t involuntarily celibate, so yeah he’s not an incel!

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:36 AM

I can think of two things he's done wrong in relationships, both of which are completely normal, human things and understandable (which is not to say right.) He kissed Willow a few times after realizing he has feelings for his lifelong best friend, most notably when he thought the two of them were going to die at the hands of Spike. And he realized he wasn't ready for marriage too late when an external force exposed him to a vision of his personal nightmare—becoming his father and hurting the woman he loves. So his sins are a lack of control over newfound feelings for the person he loves most in the world and fear of being abusive. What a monster. 🙄

Xander’s fears were totally understandable, but his communication was horrendous. He’s a human, I get it. He will make mistakes.

He still hurt Anya, and then made comments to her after the breakup.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Seriously, Xander has had sex with every female character on the show except Buffy. We know with Anya and Faith. Cordelia is a maybe. Had he applied himself, Willow and Kendra. And Dawn. That means, the one woman on the show who looked at Xander and said no was Buffy. Not an incel. Which is stupid anyways. A system that distributes scarce resources in an fundamentally unequal way breeding resentment and discontent, lame. A sales tax on tampons? Get the handmaiden robes.

I don't really get that either. Teenage girls are brutal to towards each other in ways that would make the First blush. But Xander calls Cordie a slut and everyone loses their minds!

 

[thetopher]

I think what turns so many fans against Xander is that the kinds of things he says and does are the kinds of things that women have to deal with every day. So Xander's evil is familiar and PERSONAL.

Spike and Angel are Vampires. No one has any experience with vamps. So, the evil they do is remote and INPERSONAL.
So fans have a visceral reaction to the evils they experience on a regular basis and little reaction to the evils they have no chance of experiencing, ever.

I'm not sure about this; Angelus' douche-baggery was quite analageous to many real world a-holes sometimes, the ways he taunted Buffy from 'Innocence' onward. And Spike's sexual assault red flags deeply triggers many who find that relatable.


I think my 'they're hotter so they get a pass' theory is more plausible, and that's before we look at the overused trope of modern fem-fiction; the 'smirking hot male antagonist' vs. the female protagonist and all the enemies to lovers tick-box tropes.
Friends to lovers is too old fashioned and it wasn't something that was pushed by the show; the show was about epic love, about a slayer falling for somebody she should be slaying ('twice') and how her duty and her heart were always in conflict.

What does Xander get; mostly he is the butt of the joke on the show, he gets punched, assaulted and clowned on by the narrative, his pain is very rarely acknowledged and is never really the main focus. The show maimed him in the final season merely so Buffy could look more sad.
Oh, and he often gets called an incel. Much like back in the 90's where girls label the nerdy best friend character as a pathetic virgin they have appropriated a replacement without having the slightest idea what it means.

Yes, he screws up frequently and is fallible, but he's simply not in the same league as...pretty much any of the other scoobies (including Buffy) and- excluding S6- rarely lead to death or apocalypse.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yes, I've considered something like that. That Xander is written wrong, and just comes off differently to Gen Z. Like, he needs to be less masculine and more man child to be appealing to them.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Yes, I've considered something like that. That Xander is written wrong, and just comes off differently to Gen Z. Like, he needs to be less masculine and more man child to be appealing to them.

The "man-child" has no appeal for anyone. Our culture says men should show more vulnerability but look what happens when they are: they get ostracised immediately by everyone, male and female alike. Modern culture cannot fathom the idea that a man faces problems after feminism has told everyone for the last six decades that men don't have problems, they are the problem.

Modern advice to men is self-contradictory and anyone following that advice will be considered a doormat and people will walk all over them.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I'm not sure about this; Angelus' douche-baggery was quite analageous to many real world a-holes sometimes, the ways he taunted Buffy from 'Innocence' onward. And Spike's sexual assault red flags deeply triggers many who find that relatable.


I think my 'they're hotter so they get a pass' theory is more plausible, and that's before we look at the overused trope of modern fem-fiction; the 'smirking hot male antagonist' vs. the female protagonist and all the enemies to lovers tick-box tropes.
Friends to lovers is too old fashioned and it wasn't something that was pushed by the show; the show was about epic love, about a slayer falling for somebody she should be slaying ('twice') and how her duty and her heart were always in conflict.

What does Xander get; mostly he is the butt of the joke on the show, he gets punched, assaulted and clowned on by the narrative, his pain is very rarely acknowledged and is never really the main focus. The show maimed him in the final season merely so Buffy could look more sad.
Oh, and he often gets called an incel. Much like back in the 90's where girls label the nerdy best friend character as a pathetic virgin they have appropriated a replacement without having the slightest idea what it means.

Yes, he screws up frequently and is fallible, but he's simply not in the same league as...pretty much any of the other scoobies (including Buffy) and- excluding S6- rarely lead to death or apocalypse.

This is all true but women aren’t being assaulted or preyed on by vampires…

So it’d be different regarding the show. The supernatural aspect is considered now…

This takes away from some of the realism as some fans may argue that Spike’s vampirism and lack of soul caused him to do what he did (not justifying it, of course).

Along with Angel who is a lot older than Buffy sure, but he is a vampire…

Xander was a mortal teenage boy.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:00 AM

The "man-child" has no appeal for anyone. Our culture says men should show more vulnerability but look what happens when they are: they get ostracised immediately by everyone, male and female alike. Modern culture cannot fathom the idea that a man faces problems after feminism has told everyone for the last six decades that men don't have problems, they are the problem.

Modern advice to men is self-contradictory and anyone following that advice will be considered a doormat and people will walk all over them.

Men haven’t been allowed to show emotion since the dawn of time, let’s stop pretending like this is a new thing.

It’s taught by fellow men and broader society since birth.

Feminism made it so that you could actually receive punishment for abusing your wife, which was actually only put into place in 1994 ish. (Talking about the US here)

Social media is one of the main reasons why you may think the movement is harmful to men. There are so many ideas circulating around that encourage hate and division.

The movement has ensured protection and rights for many women including myself.

Put some respect on its name instead of diminishing it for your fandom wars.

 

[TheMaster666]

Xander is one of the three pillars of the show! Xander, Buffy, and Willow. How can you not like any of them? They're all amazing. I can get people not being okay with some of the bad choices Nick Brendon made in real life, but Xander the character is loved like the others. Like, what are you even doing on the forum as a fan if you don't like the main characters?

 

[SavvyScoobie]

Xander is one of the three pillars of the show! Xander, Buffy, and Willow. How can you not like any of them? They're all amazing. I can get people not being okay with some of the bad choices Nick Brendon made in real life, but Xander the character is loved like the others. Like, what are you even doing on the forum as a fan if you don't like the main characters?

You’d be surprised! There are people who don’t like Buffy.

How would you even watch the show at that point… 🧐

 

[burrunjor]

Buffy is a show about female empowerment and Xander is the token male sidekick. If you look at other shows like Xena or Relic Hunter, there is always at least one of the male cast who is deliberately made to look bad so the women look better. Xander (or any other male) is not born knowing what he needs to know. As one movie star said to a screenwriter, "I don't want to be the man who learns, I want to be the man who knows" and the reason is, no one wants to see how this happens. Adolescence is when some of this happens. The rest may never happen.

Xander is a normal boy growing up in an abusive home in the complete absence of a healthy role model. The fact that he became a respected contractor may have taken place in "The Replacement" but it stuck and he did not repeat the toxic patterns of his family.

I think that Xander gets hated for 2 reasons.

1/ He's the load without any supernatural powers and so when you're a kid he's going to seem boring. Which kid is going to want a Xander action figure or pretend to be him on the playground?

2/ He's a dick to the fan favourite Spike and also to Angel popular, so lots of fans turn against him for that. Okay Giles is a bit of a dick to Spike at times, but he has more bonding moments with him than Xander, as does Willow and Dawn and Anya etc. Xander is Spike's biggest critic and a lot of people never forgave him for that.

These were the reasons I disliked him for years.

The incel criticisms, nice guy stuff, is a lot of wank LOL that some people use to either bring their modern hang ups into a 90s show or to justify their hatred and make him persona non grata. (Or again maybe they are conflicting Nick Brendon's own issues with women caused by his unfortunate mental health problems and addictions. He was a tragic character, not saying that excuses it of course, but I do feel the context should be known.)

Xander does not even remotely fit the bill for a nice guy. He has a crush when he is what, 15 on his best friend, tells her, makes ONE snarky remark when she doesn't feel the same way that he instantly apologises for and then makes fun of himself for. That's it! He later selflessly risks his life that day and goes to the guy she loves instead for help. He also moves on in the next season with Cordelia, and by season 3 he is completely over Buffy.

His hatred for Angel isn't out of jealousy. He NEVER tries to kill Angel or frame him or anything when he has a soul. Indeed he gets OUTRAGED when Kendra says they should kill him. His kick his ass line is dodgy, but again for people to pretend it's just jealous is ridiculous. It isn't at all at that point. He is with Cordelia and he clearly wants revenge on Angelus for Jenny and Giles.

After that he is nothing but a supportive friend to Buffy and Willow and Tara. He NEVER gets insecure or tries to attack them or guilt any of them into liking him.

If anything if you want to drag modern, tedious, culture war terms into it, Xander is a simp or a white knight LOL. This is a guy who like we said gives Spike constant crap, whilst sleeping with Anya? The latter is a monster with or without a soul. She killed babies when she was a human (as she turned her boyfriend into a baby eating monster and set him loose in the local community.) She also condemned people to an eternity of torture in some cases, and her wishes often killed the recipient if Cordelia's is anything to go by. "If Cordelia's wish was for a long life she should get her money back."

Plus she CHOSE to be a demon twice and only showed a tiny bit of regret at the end. Spike in contrast was turned against his will, killed to feed (even if he was still sadistic, it wasn't total and complete sadism like Anya) and willingly got a soul when he was a demon. Also even Angel when he got a soul was so crushed and horrified after 100 years of bloodshed, as opposed to 1000 like Anya, he shunned the world and lived on the streets for years because he felt that's what he deserved. Anya in contrast missed being evil when she got her soul back and went on happily with no guilt and felt she deserved a happy marriage.

Ironically far from being a misogynist Xander shows the worst double standards to the male characters I've ever seen LOL.

Hilariously the dorky male sidekick you mention IS a common trope and there are more dated versions than Xander who don't get anything like the shit he gets from their respective fandoms. In fact most of them are popular! Guys like them as they show uncool guys hanging around with and sometimes winning hot babes, and women like them because they are sweet, dorky little puppy dog characters.

Look at Joxer from Xena? He is generally a popular character and if he is disliked, it's not because people think he's creepy, they just think his comedy is too broad.

Still he spies on naked Amazons having a shower, constantly guilts Gabrielle for not liking him, follows both women around when they don't like him at first (though they come to love him.) He even briefly takes advantage of a amnesiac Gabrielle before reconsidering. Hardly anybody cares about these moments and again generally love Joxer as a good and loyal friend to the two leads and find him cute.

Fry from Futurama meanwhile who is universally beloved and who most people, including even the wiki think Leela is cold and horrible to for not getting off with him right away. Does WAY more creepy shit. To start with, unlike Xander, he doesn't get over Leela for years. He cheers when her wedding goes tits up simply because he can move in on her, he constantly asks her why she doesn't like him, invites her into creepy rooms he's done up to be sexy where he can seduce her, pretends to be someone else as Lars to seduce her, creates pictures of them together etc.

Again I'm not saying I dislike those characters. Obviously I overlook those bits and focus on the sweet, touching moments like The Sting. However yeah there is a lot more creepy stuff in those characters than poor old Xander and nobody cares?

Only time Xander did something creepy was in trying to use the love spell on Cordelia, but even then it wasn't to win her back. It was just a spiteful attempt to get back on her as he could then dump her and not be such a joke at his school (to be fair she dumped him on valentine's day for shallow reasons.)

Willow actually did that shit for real with Tara!

Again to me it's just Xander isn't a watcher, a Slayer, a witch, a vampire etc, and he gave the fan favourite a lot of grief. That's it.