Why the huge Spike hate?

[bespangeled]

But Spike doesn't know this.

Angel knows what he is doing and doesn't need Spike to understand it, since Angel is fully aware as can be risky working for W&H. Before the limo ride's even over, you'll be corrupted
Spike isn't saying anything that Angel doesn't already know, because he says the same things to Lilah (Home) well before the arrival of Spike.
LILAH: ...People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast.
ANGEL: The beast's belly? Doesn't that usually mean you've been eaten?

Or maybe because Spike doesn't know him as well as he says. Anyway, enough to talk about Angel because I think we're going OT. Sorry if I look aggressive, but with that quote from Just Rewards you made me remember one of the reasons why I hate Spike. His arrogant presumption.

Of course Angel knew all of it! Sorry - I didn't mean to imply this was in any way news to him.

Only pleased that Spike sussed it out, knowing nothing when he arrived. I do think Spike knew what he was saying. If you think it's pure guesswork that is even more amazing really. He and Angel do share a past and they do share perspectives in ways the others can't. It's like having a sibling you always fight with show up at your job. You can read each other in different ways.

An ex-lover, in my fanon.

You're not friends. You'll never be
friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, you'll
shag, you'll hate each other till it
makes you quiver, but you'll never be
friends. Real love isn't brains,
children, it's blood, it's blood
screaming inside you to work its
will. I may be love's bitch, but at
least I'm man enough to admit it.

I think that applies to Angelus and William/Spike as well.

I really love Angel too. I love him stubborn, and bewildered, and vulnerable. I love that he is flawed and he fights through his flaws. He's strong because he has so much conviction. I love Angel and Darla - amazing, so rich. Yes, he can be petty and defensive - that's fun. My favorite seasons of Angel are 2 & 3.

As for Spike - he did love Buffy and learn from her. Spike is a natural follower, but he would need to follow someone with Buffy's qualities - morality, and intelligence. I think by mid-season 5 he knew that Angel fit that bill.

I know you see it completely differently and that's cool. I don't know if it helps that I went off on my I love Angel rant. 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

No, he did get the soul to make sure she 'gets what she deserves' - (whatever he thought it was that she deserved) - to quote from him, and that's a word of difference. If he really wanted to make sure he would never hurt her again all he had to do was step outside during daytime. Or at the very least leave for a different city, town, country, like forever. But nope, special snowflake finds his own ways.

*swallows blood pressure tablet* God only knows why I'm still bothering as you seem so set in your views, but hey, call me a masochist. 😀

BUFFY
Why? Why would you do that—

SPIKE
Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man.

As for personal history "You were my sire, man. You were my Yoda" I think that shows some sort of closeness.

Yeah, I do too. I saw that as being a given in their early 'unlives' together.

To say nothing of the shagging of course. *hoots*

 

[thetopher]

To all those who believe that souled and un-souled Spike as different characters and should be judged as such, that's fine- it's a view point.

My earlier quote shows that Spike himself doesn't think like that, to him he wants credit for the good and thats it, the bad stuff doesn't matter.

As for the whole reforming thing- Spike is still wrong, because he didn't truly reform until he got a soul- then he could choose not to do evil things (and even then his ability to choose was severly compromised.) instead of having a 'leash' shoved in his head.

Faith chose to go to prison to atone for her crimes,
Buffy might well have not believed her sincerity, (although I think by that time the Watcher's assassins had been eliminated so I doubt Buffy even considered them- she's actually the one who mentioned jail as a fitting punishment to both Angel and Faith.) but by S7 Faith has stayed there for three years before busting out- only when needed, to help her only true friend.
Faith then almost dies about twice in her attempts to bring Angelus down and then, after having done all that, walks into another apocalyptic situation because she can help, I think maybe that all should've had some bearing on Buffy and Spike's behaviour during their meeting with her.

But then Buffy judgement is pretty damn appalling in S7. 🙁

 

[Silverspike]

But then Buffy judgement is pretty damn appalling in S7

Yeah, all that saving the word thing at the end? Highly overrated. 😀

 

[bespangeled]

To all those who believe that souled and un-souled Spike as different characters and should be judged as such, that's fine- it's a view point.

My earlier quote shows that Spike himself doesn't think like that, to him he wants credit for the good and thats it, the bad stuff doesn't matter.

As for the whole reforming thing- Spike is still wrong, because he didn't truly reform until he got a soul- then he could choose not to do evil things (and even then his ability to choose was severly compromised.) instead of having a 'leash' shoved in his head.

Faith chose to go to prison to atone for her crimes,
Buffy might well have not believed her sincerity, (although I think by that time the Watcher's assassins had been eliminated so I doubt Buffy even considered them- she's actually the one who mentioned jail as a fitting punishment to both Angel and Faith.) but by S7 Faith has stayed there for three years before busting out- only when needed, to help her only true friend.

Faith then almost dies about twice in her attempts to bring Angelus down and then, after having done all that, walks into another apocalyptic situation because she can help, I think maybe that all should've had some bearing on Buffy and Spike's behaviour during their meeting with her.

But then Buffy judgement is pretty damn appalling in S7. 🙁

I think the bad stuff definitely matters - why else try to get Buffy to kill him. And there is Damage, where he begins to see the real picture. I think there was a lot of denial before that - but I think it was more the idea that he had to one-up Angel and not brood. Angel broods - Spike does.

I love Faith - in fact she's one of my favorite characters. Faith jumping through the jail window starts on of my favorite arcs in both series. Of all the cast, Faith is who I can relate to - I've been there, and I've taken in kids who have been there. I can appreciate the determination it took for her to walk that road. So if anyone is putting down Faith let me know.

It's kind of funny how much different characters grew on me when I watched Angel. Faith was okay in Buffy - but she was amazing in AtS. On rewatch, Faith is amazing all along. I like nerd Wes for the same reason. I don't hate any characters, and very few ships.

Sorry - I am pulling my own thread off topic.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, all that saving the word thing at the end? Highly overrated. 😀

Well, luckily Buffy getting kicked out in 'Empty Places' sets her on the right path and her judgement inproves considerably.

Afterwards she makes up with Faith and lets Spike sacrifice himself to close the Hellmouth.

*sighs happily at the mental image of Spike being burned alive.* 😀

 

[Silverspike]

Well, luckily Buffy getting kicked out in 'Empty Places' sets her on the right path and her judgement inproves considerably.

Dear god thats a bit condescending of her character isn't it? Like she could have worked that out herself before her mates kicked off.

*sighs happily at the mental image of Spike being burned alive.*

*sigh* I agree. It was wonderful seeing him be a true hero. 😀

Not nesserily in a romantic way you understand, just working together an' all.

Nah, let em' shag. Would make it all the more interesting imo. 😀

 

[thetopher]

I think the bad stuff definitely matters - why else try to get Buffy to kill him. And there is Damage, where he begins to see the real picture. I think there was a lot of denial before that - but I think it was more the idea that he had to one-up Angel and not brood. Angel broods - Spike does.

I love Faith - in fact she's one of my favorite characters. Faith jumping through the jail window starts on of my favorite arcs in both series. Of all the cast, Faith is who I can relate to - I've been there, and I've taken in kids who have been there. I can appreciate the determination it took for her to walk that road. So if anyone is putting down Faith let me know.

It's kind of funny how much different characters grew on me when I watched Angel. Faith was okay in Buffy - but she was amazing in AtS. On rewatch, Faith is amazing all along. I like nerd Wes for the same reason. I don't hate any characters, and very few ships.

Sorry - I am pulling my own thread off topic.

Agreed.

I like Spike in Angel S5, the writers on that show get his redemption arc a hell of a lot better and he really adds something to the season, both dramatically and comedy-wise. 🙂

Honestly I like Spike partnered with Angel a hell of a lot more than I like him partnered with Buffy.
Not nesserily in a romantic way you understand, just working together an' all. 😉

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 AM ----------

Dear god thats a bit condescending of her character isn't it? Like she could have worked that out herself before her mates kicked off.



*sigh* I agree. It was wonderful seeing him be a true hero. 😀



Nah, let em' shag. Would make it all the more interesting imo. 😀

Have you seen Buffy pananoid ranting at the end of 'Empty Places'-? people tell her to chill and take a step back and she basically says that she can't- she's incapable of working with Faith and the others in a teamwork capacity.

I can admit that Buffy has faults, works throught them (with Spikes' help btw.😉) and comes back stronger- she's not perfect by any means.

I have to say, it a first to see a Spike fan who doesn't love the whole 'hurt/comfort' fan-fic that is 'Touched' but each to their own. 😛

Spike was heroic at the end of S7. Agreed.

...No comment on that last bit, but I sure hope Spangel shagging would've been healthier than the train-wreck that was Spuffy shagging.

 

[Kean]

...Xander clearly exhibits his attraction to Buffy and their history when he forces himself on her in "The Pack". That's not even open to interpretation. He was equally clearly being controlled/influenced by the hyena spirit/demon thing. However, the very same case can be made that Spike in S7, with a soul, is not responsible for pre-soul actions, as Xander is not responsible for hyena-spirit actions.

I think that is the conflict here. From what I can tell the conversation is hinged on believing that Spike is the same being soul or no soul. In that respect he can take credit for any good he may have done but equally he must take responsibility for all the bad. So, if you apply the pre-soul standard to this particular situation while believing Spike souled and unsouled are the same consciousness, it is total a contradiction. Viewing him this way means is responsible for everything he did, good and bad.

 

[Silverspike]

...No comment on that last bit, but I sure hope Spangel shagging would've been healthier than the train-wreck that was Spuffy shagging.

Aww hon, imo there's more then enough room for both kinds. 😀

 

[bespangeled]

Agreed.

I like Spike in Angel S5, the writers on that show get his redemption arc a hell of a lot better and he really adds something to the season, both dramatically and comedy-wise. 🙂

Honestly I like Spike partnered with Angel a hell of a lot more than I like him partnered with Buffy.
Not nesserily in a romantic way you understand, just working together an' all. 😉.

.

Even if they sleep together I can't see romance there. Maybe friendship - lots of snark - but they have each others backs. If Spike or Angel took half a century to be with a human, there would be plenty of snark but either one would be there for the other when the human died. That's love.




.

Have you seen Buffy pananoid ranting at the end of 'Empty Places'-? people tell her to chill and take a step back and she basically says that she can't- she's incapable of working with Faith and the others in a teamwork capacity.

I can admit that Buffy has faults, works throught them (with Spikes' help btw.😉) and comes back stronger- she's not perfect by any means.

I have to say, it a first to see a Spike fan who doesn't love the whole 'hurt/comfort' fan-fic that is 'Touched' but each to their own. 😛

Spike was heroic at the end of S7. Agreed.

...No comment on that last bit, but I sure hope Spangel shagging would've been healthier than the train-wreck that was Spuffy shagging.

I like hurt/comfort sometimes. It's not real to me but it can strike chords. Then other times it just repels me because it's too unreal.

Buffy and Spike were karmic - they learned huge lessons from each other. But they learned because it was a horrible train wreck. I believe Buffy was telling the truth when she told Spike she loved him, but I also believe she in no way was in love with him nor ever would be.

Spike finished his redemption at the end of season 5 AtS when he fought in NFA. Chosen was an important step but he still had more to learn. Angel needed Spike to point out unsavory truths, and to get him to lighten up. Spike needed Angel to see him value him and lead him.

As I said, no romance but probably the deepest bond in the 'verse.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Why not reference it? Pre3 and post soul behavior is a common topic throughout the series.

Because you said it yourself, whats done is done!!
If he's going to reference it, it's not "whats done is done", in which case, unsoled him got the soul not souled him.
You can't have it both ways and say lets not distinguish between the tow cuz whats done is done, but lets use it as a glowing recommendation letter!?

SPIKE
Uh...right. So, what's in it for me?

SIRK
The vampire will have his past washed clean.

ANGEL
And live again in mortal form. Yeah, that part I know.

Thats just his wording, it's not what the original translation said.

No, the beating up of demons makes him an anathema to the demons, which leaves him humans. And yes, he wants to eat people. As I recall the other souled demon still wants to eat people as well - as per Somnabulist and the dreams Angel enjoyed. I assume that comes with the package.

But Spike wasn't souled at the time, you've used Angel as a point in reference to Spike and his chip in season 4.

Angel still wants to eat people, but knows its wrong. Spike still wants to eat people but knows he gets a pain in his head if he does- huge difference.

Yes, the chip modifies behaviour - the modified behaviour also has consequences. Does Spike care about humans in general - hell, no. But he does get attached to the Scoobies eventually. He stays in town when Buffy dies to watch over Dawn. There is attachment there that would never have happened because of the chip.

He is not attached to the scoobies, he is obsessed with Buffy. He stays in town becasue Buffy asked him to look after Dawn, he stayed becasue it was Buffys last command to her pet, he doesn't stay becasue he wants to help the scoobies.

The fact he tried to rape Buffy is proof that the chip is just a muzzle, it's hasn't actually changed him.

His motive for getting a soul, is do different from him wanting a love spell on Dru. Force the other person to love him.

How would Spike even know when Faith reformed? I'd put it in the same category as the Cordy/Spike - my soul is better than yours.

Exactly, much like his big bad status, Spike doesn't care about facts, he just wants to hype his "big good" status.

Then Buffy is just as evil-selfish, because she agreed to the partnership for selfish reasons.

Not even a little bit. She agreed to save to world, so the world keeps going. Spike did it to continue to be able to murder people - how is that the same?

Two souled vamps in the world - and none of their behaviours happen in a vacuum. It's pertinent to the whole discussion about whether souls keep you from doing evil.

Right the old, I'll use Angel as an example till the Angel example doesn't work for me thing.
If I used that as an example of how Spike clearly hasn't shown enough guilt, I'd just get told "they are different"

You can be narcissistic and obsessive. And Spike was - WESLEY
William the Bloody. He's a vampire. One of the worst recorded. Second only to"”. That would seem he did more than talk a big game.

This is bull though. Spike isn't second, Spikes biggest claim to fame is killing two slayers, so maybe to those trained in an institute dedicated to Slayers he's second, but seeing how other vampires wanted to do truely evil things like End the world (the master) Spike isn't a big league player. If Angel operates on a level on evil that is world ending, and Spike doesn't go anywhere close to that, how could he possibly be second?
Darla is also more of a bad ass than Spike.

There are numerous times throughout the show that Giles lack of education on a subject is shown, Wesley studied at the same place.

.

Spike finished his redemption at the end of season 5 AtS when he fought in NFA.

There is it. The absolute worst thing that can be said about Spike. The idea he has completed his redemption is sickening.

If thats all it took for a character to be redeemed, Angel would have Shanshu'd 10 times over.

The little importance attached to Spikes redemption is one of the things I hate most about his character.

 

[Silverspike]

Spike still wants to eat people but knows he gets a pain in his head if he does- huge difference.

Pre soul yes, after no.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Pre soul yes, after no.

Yes thats my point, I didn't say any different, bespangeled compared Spikes modification chip to a soul and we are discussing how he got the soul, so after soul and any feelings/conflicts Angel had are irrelevant to spike in season 4,5 and 6.

 

[ladydorotea]

However, the very same case can be made that Spike in S7, with a soul, is not responsible for pre-soul actions, as Xander is not responsible for hyena-spirit actions.

Not so fast. Firstly, even though Xander was/is never my favorite, in this particular case I think he is being black-washed, to make Spike look less bad. The pre-hyena Xander and post-hyena Xander is one and the same boy, a human with no superpowers. It can be argued that hyena possession both gives supernatural powers and takes over completely. Same as a werewolf in their wolf form is a beast, not a human. Might as well argue that Nina or Oz in werewolf form are inclined to kill their loved ones because their human sides are attracted to them. Tough sell.

Vampire demon though is in Spike during the AR, and stays inside post AR, with many a Spike fan arguing that the said demon is actually redeemable and giving that demon brownie points for 'fighting for his soul'. If the demon is capable of 'good' it sure can and should be punished for the evil it did. If it ( the 'Spikelus' demon) is no longer responsible, while still inside, then we have a problem of audience crying foul for punishment (by 100 years or solitude and remorse or some such) being omitted, while all the perks of being a super-powerful vampire are still available. Basically, Spike is a Gary Stu of redeemed powerful beings in the verse, and that is the main reason of him being so 'divisive'.

Secondly, the discussion is not about pinning responsibilities, but about 'why o much hate'. Once again, Spike the character gets away with way too much evil and never gets punished for it, justly or not. Whereas any good redemption story usually makes you the audience feel at least some empathy for the character when and after they are/were punished by the plot. See, I can even start feeling bad for Theon Greyjoy, after what GRRM does to him, justly or not. With Spike I never have the slightest inkling to feel bad about him. Thus hating him and cheering for his misfortunes becomes something of a sport. Where the writers smart enough to do something really bad to Spike - and making it last at least a season , not 30 seconds like in Damage - I think the 'why so much hate ' list would have been much much shorter.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

There is it. The absolute worst thing that can be said about Spike. The idea he has completed his redemption is sickening.

If thats all it took for a character to be redeemed, Angel would have Shanshu'd 10 times over.

The little importance attached to Spikes redemption is one of the things I hate most about his character.

I was wondering what you would say to someone who asked you "why does every character need to be redeemed in order to be enjoyed or liked? Or do they?". I know you have your many personal reasons for not liking Spike, but what would you say to someone who asked you this? I'm genuinely curious what your answer would be.

As an example, and I'll be honest, in some ways I kind of like Edward Rochester from Jane Eyre (Bronte) despite the fact that he does rather despicable things (although on closer examination the things he does can be understood in a different light, which puts Edward in a better light too). He's kind of like Spike insofar as he never really "redeems" himself (it's more complicated than that, I know... for instance does Jane redeem him?), but he's interesting anyway. And he does many of the things he does because of love. It's not meant as an excuse, but he's a complicated guy.

I guess my point being I never asked (or demanded) that Edward find redemption while reading Jane Eyre. I liked him in some ways, in other ways not so much. Same with Spike.

I don't ask myself questions like whether a character has redeemed himself or not (or yet). I don't like assuming the role of moral judge. And I don't care. That's not my interest when I read a book or watch a show or movie.

Or are you aiming more at the comfort of the average Spike fan's belief that, by the end of S5 Angel, Spike has redeemed himself? In other words, Spike fans say Spike has redeemed himself but you have a problem with that and think they're wrong(?) But you say that the "little importance" paid to his redemption is one of the things you dislike most about his character specifically though, so it sounds like a problem you have with the writers, so I don't know.

I'm not sure I'm putting it properly so that my meaning (and question) is properly understood, but I'll go ahead and post and see what you say first. I'm not trying to be antagonistic either, I hope you don't take it that way.

And finally, (just so there is no confusion and so I don't get sucked into this on-going debate) I couldn't care less about the Spike/Spuffy for and against debate. I'm impartial, I don't take a side or want to, and it is definitely not my fight, either way. It's not a topic I get passionate about, one way or the other.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I was wondering what you would say to someone who asked you "why does every character need to be redeemed in order to be enjoyed or liked? Or do they?". I know you have your many personal reasons for not liking Spike, but what would you say to someone who asked you this? I'm genuinely curious what your answer would be.

I would say that is absolutely fine. I love Glory, I think she's such a great character. There is absolute acceptance of her evil and it's fully embraced, enjoying that in a character is no problem at all.

As an example, and I'll be honest, in some ways I kind of like Edward Rochester from Jane Eyre (Bronte) despite the fact that he does rather despicable things (although on closer examination the things he does can be understood in a different light, which puts Edward in a better light too). He's kind of like Spike insofar as he never really "redeems" himself (it's more complicated than that, I know... for instance does Jane redeem him?), but he's interesting anyway. And he does many of the things he does because of love. It's not meant as an excuse, but he's a complicated guy.

I guess my point being I never asked (or demanded) that Edward find redemption while reading Jane Eyre. I liked him in some ways, in other ways not so much. Same with Spike.

I don't ask myself questions like whether a character has redeemed himself or not (or yet). I don't like assuming the role of moral judge. And I don't care. That's not my interest when I read a book or watch a show or movie.

Or are you aiming more at the comfort of the average Spike fan's belief that, by the end of S5 Angel, Spike has redeemed himself? In other words, Spike fans say Spike has redeemed himself but you have a problem with that and think they're wrong(?) But you say that the "little importance" paid to his redemption is one of the things you dislike most about his character specifically though, so it sounds like a problem you have with the writers, so I don't know.

I'm not sure I'm putting it properly so that my meaning (and question) is properly understood, but I'll go ahead and post and see what you say first. I'm not trying to be antagonistic either, I hope you don't take it that way.

And finally, (just so there is no confusion and so I don't get sucked into this on-going debate) I couldn't care less about the Spike/Spuffy for and against debate. I'm impartial, I don't take a side or want to, and it is definitely not my fight, either way. It's not a topic I get passionate about, one way or the other.

I get all that, Glory is never redeemed, but I still find her interesting and one of the shows best baddies.

The problem I have with Spike and the way fans see his redemption is that, there is supposed to be a redemption story there. With glory it's full on evil, start to finish.

If Spike fans responded to every thread saying "Yeah he tried to rape Buffy, so what he literally had no soul" - thats the conversation over, I can't argue against that, the character had no soul, end of discussion.
Except thats not where the conversation ends, the character himself points out how good he is for getting a soul, he points out his own redemption.

And it's both the fans I think are wrong and the little importance the character puts on it, when I say little importance I dont mean the amount of time the writers give it, if the writers dont give it time it becomes a character flaw, blaming writing is just bad debating.
I think the fans are wrong becasue Spike hasn't done enough to be be redeemed. And the reason I put importance on redemption is cuz it's something the characters want, and it's something his fans want. The whole point of fan excuses is to redeem and excuse a characters actions.
And I dont like Spike because he already thinks he's done loads of redeeming.

Spikes tells Buffy he got a soul for her, Buffy tells Robin that the person that killed his mother doesn't exist any more - therefore the person that fought for the soul doesn't exist any more, so how is it a check in the redeemable column, how is it something he can take credit for?

Redemption is a part becasue the character makes it a part, and becasue his fans make it a part.

 

[bespangeled]

Okay - thanks, both of you. I do understand better now how you feel. I never meant this to turn into a thread where I defend Spike, and you've given me what I did want which is your point of view.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Redemption is a part becasue the character makes it a part

Yes, he does do that, doesn't he? I can't remember anything specifically, but I think he even says he feels he has "redeemed" himself for his previous actions at some point...not in those specific words, but more or less.

redemption though, what is it? There is no omniscent God in the sky who decides when we get it or not. And what do other people matter? If they don't pardon us, what does that matter? Do they really know us well enough (and all of our internal conflicts and thoughts etc.) to be able redeem us? And do they know "the Truth", so that they know their judgment is not in error? Who else can really grant us redemption but ourselves?

But yeah, your Spike point makes sense. We might grant ourselves redemption, but some of us do so without having really earned it (and if a person was honest he would have to admit it). There is no easy answer to how one "earns" redemption either, but honest people know themselves well enough to be able to look themselves in the mirror and with a straight face tell themselves if they earned it.

I love Glory too btw. She's my favorite big bad.

---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 PM ----------

I'll just add quickly that the redemption angle is an interesting way to scrutinize Angel and Spike. Spike has the kind of personality where he can just shrug off things (like his past) and move on and not feel guilt for it. This ability can be a virtue sometimes (not always of course though). I kind of like Nietzsche's thoughts on overcoming feelings of guilt (e.g. in his concept of Ubermensch). I believe in being a good person too, but guilt is a problematic thing actually, and in many cases I don't think guilt is productive or makes you a better person for having it. I don't agree with everything Nietzsche said on the topic (and he wrote quite a lot on that topic too) but if anything he demonstrated how it is a much more complicated and problematic issue than the layman (and sometimes other philosophers) consider it to be.

And then there is Angel, who especially in the beginning is overcome with tremendous quantities of guilt over his past. He simply can't shed his past as easily as a guy like Spike can. Angel isn't wrong to feel that way either. It makes him an interesting personality type to consider and ponder. And sometimes the situation and context and specific person requires a period of time to feel deeply guilty about something. In Angel's case he comes out better for it in my opinion. That's why I love studying various people and types. There is no right or wrong answer, just an infinite number of ways to live and interpret one's life, and an infinite amount of ways to give it meaning. And no answer to the important questions will ever be exactly the same for any two people. Which is part of the reason why I'm not interested in judging people, and try to avoid it.

 

[Faith]

I'm on the fence with Spike. Early doors I was a big Spike fan but the minute he started mooning over Buffy it started to plant seeds. This isn't anything to with with Spuffy/Bangel, I don't really ship either. I just didn't like what it turned him into and my interest faded and I simply couldn't be bothered with him.

I don't suppose it helped that at the time I was active in the fan conventions having spent time with him did not leave me with a favourable impression. So whenever I saw him on screen as Spike I was reminded of that.

I was flicking channels the other day and came across the episode where Buffy discovers Spike has a soul and thought that entire performance was amazing. Now that some time has past I am looking to see if I can watch it again through fresh eyes and see if I can appreciate him like I used to.

I did think he was far better in Angel however but mostly because Buffy was out of the picture.