Why the huge Spike hate?

[Silverspike]

Thing is I don't see it as black and white as that. And imo I found his story to be as rich and interesting as say Wesleys in AtS. I doubt If I would have followed the show as intensely, nor still be involved in fandom to this day If it hadn't been.

Also considering who's show it was your idea of 'cliche' must be vastly different To Joss Whedons.

But then my 'meat' appears to be your 'poison' so to speak. 🙂

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I want to add something quick before reading everything, which I will do later.

Yes, I agree, Spike is a despicable character at times and he takes advantage of Buffy oftentimes in a certain season. But that is precisely why Spike is so interesting to me, and that is why the Spuffy relationship is interesting. It's not a healthy relationship, and I would never advise anyone to pursue such a relationship, but I don't see why that should mean I should hate Spike or Spuffy. The relationship brings up interesting relationship dynamics precisely because it is unique, strange and unhealthy. It's fascinating in certain ways that the Bangel ship is not (don't worry, I find Angel and Bangel interesting too, but for different reasons).

People seem to dislike Spuffy and spike only because they are so unhealthy (which to me seems to mean they personalize the show, and in my opinion, and at least in some cases, too much). But when you take a step back, realize it is all fiction anyway, and look at the Spuffy ship and spike in a depersonalized way, and there is much to find intriguing and interesting and thought provoking.

I wouldn't like Spike or Spuffy in the real world at all, but it is so very interesting from the perspective of a fictional show. I can both despise Spike at times yet simultaneously enjoy him and find him interesting too. It seems like too many people are only one or the other. Perfectly healthy relationships and people are ideal in real life (and I would want to be healthy too) but they are boring in stories. It reminds me of a Nietzsche aphorism where he says something to the effect of "another argument against heaven is that, in heaven, all of the really interesting people from history are missing". It reminds me of this topic.

And I am certainly not going to pat myself on the back next (I'm a very flawed person and thinker too) but I have also heard said somewhere that one quality of genius is the ability to hold and appreciate conflicting opinions (and many different opinions) simultaneously. I agree with that. A lot of the Spuffy for and against arguments seem to be exercises in strictly binary thinking, which I am suspicious of and also don't like very much. So here is to seeing it many ways all at once: the Spuffy and Spike elements that are interesting and worth pondering and the Spuffy and spike elements that are off-putting and distasteful. To the idea of loving and hating the same thing at the same time, as opposed to being forced to take one side only or the other in some futile exercise of binary thinking and feeling. Cheers to that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

My disliking of Spike is made up of two different elements, The character and (a large group of) his fans.

Character

I liked Spike when he was a baddie and as a neutered baddie. After that his character became incredibly boring. So I dont like the character.

The reason I dont like him from season 5 on, is he loses anything that makes him a character, he has no backbone and just becomes Buffys lap dog.

In season 5 he is literally a stalker, end of.

Season 6 he is a vital element in the destruction of a great character and he is directly involved and responsible for a number of the most disgusting parts of the story.

Season 7 is just awful, he gets a soul that is basically nothing more than a get out jail free card to excuse an attempted rape. Other than minor characters changes he remains largely the same. He has no problem taking credit for the good he did as a vampire, while at the same time he forgives himself for the bad.

Spikes story adds absolutely nothing to the overall story, he has no part to play, his character is too directly tied to being Buffys emotional slave that he has no room to grow and no room to have a story.
Willow has an arc in season 7 thats tied to the overall story, she has to overcome her fear of magic and what she was, and ends up playing a role in changing the course of history for the slayer line.
Anya has to deal with with being a demon, then being made human, which puts her back in a similar place to season 3, when she's so afraid of being human she runs away. We see a complete 180 from that point of view, where she wants to help and dies doing so.
We see more of Dawn and Xander accepting their place in the group, yet no big deal is made(which is kinda their thing) of the fact that they go into battle as humans with no magical assistance.

Spike wears an amulet like a mannequin could do. Absolutely he played the biggest role in that battle, but the difference is it wasn't something he uniquely could have done, and it wasn't something he wouldn't have done two and a half years earlier. He'd have worn that amulet since halfway through season 5, which negates any need for all the screen time Spike gets in season 7.
It wasn't some big heroic gesture that was spurred on by his character development of having a soul, it was something he would have done presoul.
Which is why I can't wrap my head around why he got so much storytime for such little development. That storytime was desperately needed for the overall Slayer story and was wasted for no good reason on Spike.
I say wasted, cuz we have to see him deal with going through being crazy for a hot minuet, then being captured, then the unchipping, his gentler phase, followed by his "I can be the big bad again phase", then the trigger story, then the untriggering story, then his I'm the only one that believes in Buffy phase and on and on, yet none of it plays a bigger role.
His Capture lead to nothing, unchipping him only played a part in separating Giles and Buffy, something that was largely ignored by the final episode, Same for his I can be a big bad again, him putting on the jacket, makes no difference, he's no different from that point on then he was at the start of the season, the trigger story gave nothing but backstory to something not tied to the overall story, the last time we got Spike backstory it was tied to the slayer line, this was pure Spike backstory with no relevance to the story. His sticking up for Buffy when no one else does is kind of pointless, she decides to go off without him to get the scythe, and then goes back to the group and completely changes how she leads basically saying that how she was leading was wrong

All of that in a season where the bad guy was an astronomically big bad guy, and the story was about the very subject that the series is based on (slayers) and both went criminally under developed. Thats maybe a bit outside the character himself, but none of the stuff that took up screentime was interesting, the fact it took away from actual interesting subjects just made it more annoying.

What makes Spike worse is that he can grow, when he went to Angel he was much better. Much better as a character and as a person, but he went straight back to being Buffys lap dog by season 9.

The Fans

This has largely been covered by most other people, and I agree with everything they said.

Spike fans can be incredibly difficult to engage with, not all (but many).

The main reason being there is this need for Spike to always be in the right and always be perfect, that no other characters fans do in the same way Spike fans do. There are a stream of uncanon excuses and explanations that are 100% fanwank and often go against canon, that makes debating someone next to impossible. Even stuff Spike does unsouled fans try to find a way to make an excuse, denial that Spike is the doctor is a milder one, but I've seen people say the attempted rape was Buffys fault - What possible reason would there be to go against those?? At the time of both he was unsoled, the answer to either of those should be "yeah he's responsible for that, he was unsouled" THATS IT, finished. There's no need to pin blame on some grand scheme of Rileys to frame him, or blame Buffy for leading him on - and they're just two examples, there have been many many more.

Another reason dealing with his fans is frustrating is cuz of inconsistencies.

Firstly cuz there's inconsistencies with Spike, some people think he's more capable of love and being human as a vampire, while others dont accept that.

Secondly there's inconsistencies in the points, some fans take "good" Spike as the whole character basically from season 5 on, they point out all the good he's done, but when a bad point is brought up it's immediately "he was unsoled" - how that works I have no idea.
Another fan will only count from season 7 on.
And a third type of fan will say they only count from season 7 on, and in another thread will start pointing out all the good he did in season 5 and 6.

Absolutely other fans defend their favourite character, but the arguments are more consistent.

Another reason his fans can be annoying is that if you dont like Spike you are a hater. I dont like Spike cuz his uninteresting stories took up too much screen time from other more interesting people and stories and I'm a hater. I really dont like Spike, but that doesn't mean my points are invalid, and every time someone does it they just look like such a fool who can't back any of their arguments up.

One of the main reasons I dont like Spike fans is cuz of their effect on the story. Spike fans have always seemed like a loud group of fans rather than a many group of fans. Spike individual properties have never done well (least selling comics etc), yet Spike got so much screen time in season 7 cuz he was popular. I dont like the amount of power a small group of fans seem to have over the story.

 

[Robb Stark]

Also considering who's show it was your idea of 'cliche' must be vastly different To Joss Whedons.

But this is exactly the point @Evil UU is making. I'm not saying I fully agree with it, but what he said was very, very interesting. Personally I was fine with Spike's story and the way it progressed, I liked it, but at the same time I do see the huge character alteration and how it was utilized to conform to the plot they wanted to tell that week.

And this point you make, it's Joss Whedon so it's gold essentially, is one of the central things I dislike about Whedon diehards. He's a fantastic writer and a damn good director, but he's not the best storyteller. He's not Steven Spielberg. His work is not immune to criticism. To me, and I respect it if you disagree, saying "well Spike can't be a cliche because it's Joss Whedon who wrote him" is just...not an argument. It has nothing to back it up.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem with Spike to me is that he, more than any other character, destroys the fourth wall and pulls me right out of the story.

Now, I like him a lot when he's paired with Drusilla. They are a breath of fresh air when they first roll into Sunnydale, especially after the first season's one-note villains (the Master, the Anointed, Luke and pre-AtS Darla). They were rebellious, sexy, and had actual personalities, and it became even better when Angelus joined up with them.He was also a lot of fun as a lovable, shitfaced loser in "Lover's Walk." It was easy to see why viewers responded to positively to him.

But season 4 is where things start to go south. As EVIL UU so thoroughly pointed out, the chip plot device doesn't make any sense. The Scoobies have no reason to trust in a government chip that they know nothing about to keep this extremely dangerous demonic killer in check. Sure, he was helpless, but Buffy offering a quick, painless staking would not have been as bad as the writers wanted us to think it was. Buffy torturing him while he was helpless would be morally wrong, but killing the vampire before he regains the chance to kill you (or someone else) is only pragmatic.

What's more, the events of "Primeval" and "Out of My Mind" prove that Spike is still dangerous even when he's chipped. Buffy has ZERO reason to keep him alive after his respective actions in those episodes almost lead to global Armageddon and the death of her boyfriend. No explanation is offered in the show for why the Scoobies allow him to live; I've seen it suggested by some Spuffys that Buffy has a subconscious attraction to him at this point that prevents her from finishing him off, but do I need to point out how ****ing awful this would make her? She's willing to let the almost-death of her boyfriend slide because Spike is "cute?" Please. She never displayed any attraction towards Angelus, I see no reason to believe that she would be attracted to Spike. And even if she was, Riley has no reason whatsoever to spare him after that incident.

Once their actual "romance" starts, it becomes even more sickening. It's like some sort of trashy, bodice ripper romance novel. The hilarious Television Without Pity recaps for this show referred to them as "Beatrice Buffy and Spike McHunkychest," and I think that's right on the money. Bangel gets called melodramatic all the time (and even I have to admit that's a fair criticism as times), but Spuffy is in a whole other ballpark. Shirtless Spike drapes himself on a cross while he monologues about his tortured self, it seriously doesn't get any more melodramatic than that.

And that's not even getting into the fact that Buffy, our main character, our feminist icon, almost gets raped and her feelings on the matter are swept under the rug in favor for how Spike feels about the incident. This is the definiton of "Stuffed in the Fridge." This, combined with that utterly pathetic co-dependent...thing...they had in season 7, it's no wonder SMG wanted to quit the damn show. The pandering to Spike's fanbase and the Spuffy ship was one of the main causes for the show's sharp decline in quality, and it's why I feel the mythos would have benefited considerably if Spike had been killed off in Season 4.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Sorry but gotta point out the irony.

Well what you call 'bullshit' Whedon obviously saw as character progression. 🙂

That was basically what I was saying to your comments about Whedons season 8 comics....

 

[Silverspike]

"I dont like the amount of power a small group of fans seem to have over the story."

Really. So you think thats how it worked?

Spikes a complex character imo and maybe thats why some have difficulty trying to shove him into the box labeled 'their idea of what a Vampire should be'. Or tying to compare him to Angel, which is never a good idea as "They both have very different colouring" 😀

And speaking as a Spangel fan I appreciate both their redemption arcs in their own right.

---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Sorry but gotta point out the irony.



That was basically what I was saying to your comments about Whedons season 8 comics....

And whats your point? From where I'm standing thats a correct observation isn't it? For him to say that his views on what goes to make a viable tale must be very different then Whedons.

For me the bigger irony is that someone on here completely went into a massive rant and it wasn't a Spike fan.

 

[Lyri]

I hate Spike. I do, I've said it many times. I hate Spike. I also hate Willow and I hate Harmony.

The thing is, I'm never asked to qualify my reasons for hating Willow and Harmony. People just seem to accept it. Even someone I love dearly who's favorite character is Willow is willing to accept that I have valid reasons for hating Willow and they just...let it go.

Even when I state my reasons for hating Spike - of which there are many, like @Kean said - I'm continually told that I'm wrong and that I need to 'be educated'. Yes, that is something I was told, not on this boards, but it was something that a Spike felt the need to tell me.

I'm not ignorant to how people feel on the other side of this argument. My favorite character is Connor. No, really. And he's arguable one of the most hated characters on either show. And that's fine. I can understand why people hate him. He's a douche. He's selfish and stubborn and self-involved and ignorant and aggressive and weak and a bit of a chicken-shit - and I love him anyway. But I can understand why people hate him. I mean, I'll argue the point if someone brings it up in a thread and I'll state my opinions, but I'll leave it at that.

I have canonical reasons for hating Spike. I hate his attitude towards Buffy, yes, even after he got his soul. I hate that he still wears the coat he took from a woman that he killed and mourned its loss. I hate how he automatically thinks he's better than everyone. And there's a lot more. It's not because I think some Spike fans are crazy, I'd like to think that I'm not that petty.

And as for the comment about Spike-haters wishing that Spike-fans would be raped, I've seen the exact opposite. It was YEARS ago and thankfully that forum is closed now, but I did see a hardcore Spike-fan telling a Spike-hater that 'maybe she should be raped by Spike and then maybe she would love him, too'. It goes both ways.

 

[Kean]

Can I ask what the purpose of this thread is? People explain their very subjective reasons for disliking Spike (any liking or disliking of a character can only be subjective) and then a Spike fan replies explaining how the other posters opinions are wrong. Is there a hope that some sort of understanding will be found as to why vastly different people dislike the character or others like him? If either side aren't trying to understand and acknowledge the counter opinion, then we are just bludgeoning each other with every new post.

I fail to see the point of this whole thing if nobody is actually listening to each other.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Though I expect not the intended point of this thread, but the actual point, is to completely illustrate what the problem is in this debate.

 

[Silverspike]

What in that It's okay to tear into another ship or character with a vengence, but be surprised when fans of said don't quite see it that way? 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

"I dont like the amount of power a small group of fans seem to have over the story."

Really. So you think thats how it worked?

Course, fan reaction has determined loads. It's the whole reason Spike moved to Angel!

Spikes a complex character imo and maybe thats why some have difficulty trying to shove him into the box labeled 'their idea of what a Vampire should be'. Or tying to compare him to Angel, which is never a good idea as "They both have very different colouring" 😀

lol, sorry but he's really not that complex.

Always funny when someone says he shouldn't be compared to Angel, as he's often compared to Angel by Spike fans most of all ("nothing Angel did pre-soul counts, so that applies to Spike too") - which by the way was part of my whole point about inconsistencies.

 

[Buffy Summers]

What in that It's okay to tear into another ship or character with a vengence, but be surprised when fans of said don't quite see it that way? 🙂

I didn't say that at all...

 

[Black Eye Guy]

What in that It's okay to tear into another ship or character with a vengence, but be surprised when fans of said don't quite see it that way? 🙂

No one is "tearing into" anyone. The topic is discussing why Spike is hated by some people, it's not going to be filled with vanilla opinions.

This is another example of that "hater" thing, this topic directly asks me to say what I dont like about Spike, if I say negative things it's cuz I'm answering the question, yet your seeing peoples replies as an attack on Spike. This is the point numerous people have made in this thread, you can't say negative things about Spike without seeming to declare war.

Stop hating on my Spike hate... 😀

 

[Silverspike]

Oh have at it hon. On this board I don't expect to see anything else. 😀

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think this is probably a good time to remind everyone to let's try to keep things cool in this thread, and also keep in mind that the topic is "Why the huge Spike hate?"

Thanks!

 

[Kean]

What in that It's okay to tear into another ship or character with a vengence, but be surprised when fans of said don't quite see it that way? 🙂

When you ask a group of people why they dislike the thing you like, don't be shocked when you get pages full of negative comments about the thing you like.

Unless you are trying to understand another POV there is no purpose to this thread other than a lot of people pissing each other off massively.

And so what if someone hates the thing you like. Who cares? Why give total strangers that sort of power over you? The default reaction to encountering negative comments about something you like doesn't have to be challenging that opinion.

 

[Silverspike]

Well I wasn't the one to open up this thread, which as you can see has turned out to be yet another futile exercise in tying to see each others viewpoints.

As I've said before I don't excuse Spike for all the evil things he's done, (his redemption arc would mean nothing If he hadn't) I just happen to think he and his fans aren't the huge threat against world peace that some on here seem to like to make out sometimes. 😀 lol

 

[Kean]

I have been doing this thing for the last month or so where I decided that I would not post about Spike here anymore. Having to deal with him everyday ruined my enjoyment of fandom and I was sick to death of spending so much time talking about a character that I have zero interest in. It was working out pretty well (until this thread 😉). I was having discussions about different characters, engaging with different members here. It was fun. Oh well...

There are loads of reasons I hate Spike and all of them are particular to me. Mostly, the character bores me to death. But in general, the archetypal Spike character in any work of fiction will put me off in a major way, see: Loki and Damon Salvatore. I can't take him seriously. I don't like him soulless, chipped or soulled. There's nothing about him I relate to or admire. From his stupid hair to his poser Cockney accent, he bugs the living Hell out of me. I find his pursuit of Buffy disgusting and the subsequent relationship in S6 more than disturbing. I dislike how he piggybacks someone elses' story and never has one of his own. I hate how he was turned into Buffy's only ally in S7 when Scooby relations should have been the focus. I hate that he was wedged into Angel for no reason when Cordy or Lilah could have been there. I just don't like the guy. Nothing to do with my ship, but everything to do with him.

The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily mind so much if his importance wasn't inflated to the point of hilarity in fandom. Spike isn't a crucial character in the verse, you can take him out and not a whole lot changes, just look at S8; he turned up, told Buffy she was stupid and then smoked for the rest of the issues. That's it. But with the sheer amount of time he occupies in fandom you'd swear he was the Messiah.

 

[white avenger]

Though not actually pertinent to this discussion, I would just like to say that since I have for the most part dropped out of arguments of this nature, my blood pressure has dropped 20 points and I no longer have to take certain medication. Coincidence? Possibly, but I have no intention of putting it to the test. But I have finally accepted the simple fact that I am right and everyone else is wrong, and that other people with opposing views feel exactly the same way.

Simply my personal opinion, but I firmly believe that if more people would seriously consider following my example, discussions like this would be a whole lot more civil, as well as a lot more fun to participate in.

Pretty much like it was when I first came here.