Why the huge Spike hate?

[Still a Scoobie]

Apologies if this has been said before, I haven't got time to read the whole thread atm, but in my opinion, everything mentioned in the OP is why Spike is strongly disliked by some. Of course, none of it is the character's fault but the if the character weren't there, those issues wouldn't exist, so it's natural that Spike is a bit of a lightning rod for hate when he represents all those negatives listed in the OP.

Personally I don't mind him but the are times I watch Buffy (and moreso Angel) and feel like less Spike could be a good thing. It would be an easy step for me to go from that to hating Spike. I haven't yet, but I can see why some do.

 

[Taake]

Totally stole your post to help keep myself on point here 😀

You prefer Bangel to Spuffy? No problem.

Guilty as charged 🙂

You think Spuffy fans are insane? Yeah, that's the crazy wing on the Spuffy side but it isn't the character on the show. (There's a crazy Bangel side too - not sure about the rest).

Insane, not really. I just don't understand what they see in Spuffy, it makes no sense to me (and I'm sure the reverse is true for them)

You think the show threw everything that was good away to follow Spike? Again - not a problem - but that was also not the character on the show. It was producers, writers, directors, even networks.

Well yes, kind of. And I don't hold Spike personally responsible, I mean everything on the show is on the producers, writers, directors and networks... nothing is on the characters themselves so that's kind of a strange argument isn't it?

Anyway, yes, I do think the show put too much focus on Spike around season 4 and forwards and it bothered me because, to me, it never really made sense. I felt like it was hard for them to justify his presence on the show, which made him feel like a bit of an awkward burden (again to me), and while I really liked him in the start he was kind of the perfect disposable villain - meaning of course that "scratch the surface and what do you get? More surface!" People find him complex and deep but I just never saw that, it just felt like contrived layers to me, again - put there in order to justify his continued presence on the show.

You think Spike never cared about Dawn and only took care of her after Buffy died to get into Buffy's decaying buried body. That's huge hate - and seriously kinky.

I do think Spike cared about Dawn. In his own way. The other part of that quote just gives me the shivers. :S I don't think that.

You think Spike is what destroyed the show, the universe, and more. He's worse than the black plague and political advertisements. Your blood boils and you see red if his name is spoken. Huge hate.

Now that you mention it... universe ruined! 😛
I think a lot of things "ruined" the show for me (it's a strong word, I think I would more say "diminished my enjoyment" of the show), Spike was just one of those things and sometimes he wasn't one of them at all. 🙂

I don't like Spike except sometimes I like Spike, there are funny moments, but I'm not entirely certain he is invaluable for those. I don't think he should have been brought back for season 4, even though I like him in that particular season, because it lead to 5 and so forth, seasons where the moments I like him grow rare and my disdain for his part on the show expands.

There. Done.
🙂

 

[Kean]

Silverspike disagrees: "Spike isn't a crucial character in the verse" Apart from Buffy is any character?

Off the top of my head, Willow, Giles, Xander and Angel. Take any one of them away and the Buffyverse as we know it is unrecognisable.

 

[Silverspike]

Not really. Imo you could just introduce a new character. Apart from Buffy nobody was irreplaceable.

 

[Kean]

Each to their own .

 

[Robb Stark]

@Silverspike,

Also considering who's show it was your idea of 'cliche' must be vastly different To Joss Whedons.

I'm sorry, but I've seen you mention in numerous other threads that you discount the value of the comics because you think they're garbage, and use that to frame arguments and counterpoints. How is it fair to do that, and then use the exact reverse logic when defending Spike, that he's not a cliche?

Do you not see the blatant double standard you're using there?

 

[Silverspike]

Ah but you see I'm one of those who think Whedon doesn't have much to do with the comics anymore and still wonder what kind of influence DH had when it came to story ideas.

But I'm willing to admit Whedon can produce rubbish when he wants to. :lol:

It's just what folks define as poor quality really.

 

[The Bronze]

Well there's a few interesting points raised in here and a few people look like they're a little on edge waiting for something to kick off. I've been in the Spike corner for a few of the recent threads, not entirely sure which variant of Spike fan people on here will have me down as though.

I don't really have a problem with anyone hating Spike but I think naturally in a place like this you'll question why and give counter arguments. If you discover that a poster hates one character for something but loves another character who has done something similar it's only natural to raise questions.

I find it a little odd that people hate Spike due to issue with the writers though. The argument going "the writers wanted x so they made Spike do y" or "the writers wanted x so they made y happen to Spike". That's just how fiction works I'm afraid. Every character is dictated to by the writers in order to fit the story they're telling. It's not unique to Spike.

From the conversations I've had it seems the main dislike or at least a large amount of the dislike for Spike stems from the fans the character. I find that to be a little sad that a random group of people can affect others perception of something that they watch independant of them and that it can colour their opinions of it as well. I've seen it stated out right that people have only started hating Spike after talking to his fans which is a shame.

 

[Blaze]

(Some) users are completely missing the point of this thread, and I mean completely. This isn't a thread about defending Spike, it is about us discussing why some people hate him so much. This is why there is absolutely zero sense in defending Spike here, because that's not even what this topic is about, not remotely. I was actually looking forward to reading the answers because I thought it would help bring some peace.

When someone hates my favourite character, I like understanding why. I love Tara, you hate her, cool explain to my why. Oh, it's because of this or this, makes sense, me I love her because of that and that. YET, we never see anyone fight to death because I love Tara and you don't. Same with basically every other characters. I love Willow, Buffy Summers hates her. I don't give a dam about that, we can still discuss our reasons without things going downhill like they always do with Spike.

I'll defend my favourite characters of course, we should all be aloud to do this, but I'm not going to be a bigot and shut down someone else's opinion. That's all it is, an opinion. Here, we're not discussing why Spike sucks, we're discussing why YOU dislike Spike. This is 100% an opinion, I cannot say that you are wrong for saying it.

If you say: "I hate Spike because he staked Angel", then I can say that you are wrong because he didn't. If you say "I hate Spike because he tried to rape Buffy", then you are 100% entitled to your opinion. I cannot tell you that you are wrong, and people need to be reminded of this.

On the contrary, if it's a thread talking directly why Spike sucks as a character, and where things are taken to a more objective perspective, I can defend why Spike is an interesting character, or why he has depth on a character perspective. I mean, we can somewhat talk objectively about any topics, like whether Spike is an inconsistent character or not, whether he is like every other vamp or not etc (with proofs behind our opinion, some concrete stuff). These are still opinions, but they can be debated. Here, it's not about debate, it's a simple question of why you dislike him. Maybe you do dislike him because he's inconsistent, but it is irrelevant whether he actually is or not because you're just stating a reason for your own dislike. It might be 100% true, it might be 100% false, but it's still your reason and someone telling you you're wrong will no change why you dislike him. Hopefully that made sense.

Now that I got this rant out of my system, there's another thing that I want to address. Reading this thread, there was tons of awesome replies that I loved readings. But it does hurt a bit when people say they hate Spike because of the fans. I hate this because it feels like a direct attack to myself. Of course, I realize that this is not the case, since I like to consider myself as a sane Spike fan, but what's worst is that I know where people are coming from when they say this.

It's frustrating because I defend "Spike fans" all the time, being one myself, and then I realize that they are not always worth defending. That being said, I wish the "Spike fan" hate would stop. I totally get where people are coming from with their dislike of the fans, trust me, but it does make certain people feel unwelcome. I do prefer when people attack the character, not the members around here.

 

[Kean]

(Some) users are completely missing the point of this thread, and I mean completely. This isn't a thread about defending Spike, it is about us discussing why some people hate him so much. This is why there is absolutely zero sense in defending Spike here, because that's not even what this topic is about, not remotely. I was actually looking forward to reading the answers because I thought it would help bring some peace.

When someone hates my favourite character, I like understanding why. I love Tara, you hate her, cool explain to my why. Oh, it's because of this or this, makes sense, me I love her because of that and that. YET, we never see anyone fight to death because I love Tara and you don't. Same with basically every other characters. I love Willow, Buffy Summers hates her. I don't give a dam about that, we can still discuss our reasons without things going downhill like they always do with Spike.

I'll defend my favourite characters of course, we should all be aloud to do this, but I'm not going to be a bigot and shut down someone else's opinion. That's all it is, an opinion. Here, we're not discussing why Spike sucks, we're discussing why YOU dislike Spike. This is 100% an opinion, I cannot say that you are wrong for saying it.

If you say: "I hate Spike because he staked Angel", then I can say that you are wrong because he didn't. If you say "I hate Spike because he tried to rape Buffy", then you are 100% entitled to your opinion. I cannot tell you that you are wrong, and people need to be reminded of this.

On the contrary, if it's a thread talking directly why Spike sucks as a character, and where things are taken to a more objective perspective, I can defend why Spike is an interesting character, or why he has depth on a character perspective. I mean, we can somewhat talk objectively about any topics, like whether Spike is an inconsistent character or not, whether he is like every other vamp or not etc (with proofs behind our opinion, some concrete stuff). These are still opinions, but they can be debated. Here, it's not about debate, it's a simple question of why you dislike him. Maybe you do dislike him because he's inconsistent, but it is irrelevant whether he actually is or not because you're just stating a reason for your own dislike. It might be 100% true, it might be 100% false, but it's still your reason and someone telling you you're wrong will no change why you dislike him. Hopefully that made sense.

Now that I got this rant out of my system, there's another thing that I want to address. Reading this thread, there was tons of awesome replies that I loved readings. But it does hurt a bit when people say they hate Spike because of the fans. I hate this because it feels like a direct attack to myself. Of course, I realize that this is not the case, since I like to consider myself as a sane Spike fan, but what's worst is that I know where people are coming from when they say this.

It's frustrating because I defend "Spike fans" all the time, being one myself, and then I realize that they are not always worth defending. That being said, I wish the "Spike fan" hate would stop. I totally get where people are coming from with their dislike of the fans, trust me, but it does make certain people feel unwelcome. I do prefer when people attack the character, not the members around here.

I really couldn't agree with this more. Actually, the only thing I disagree on is wanting to know why people hate my favourite characters. I have zero desire to know why any poster hates Buffy or Angel. There's literally nothing I could offer to that conversation so I tend to stay well clear of them if I can.

Regardless of my other posts in this thread, I'd really like to have that measured conversation with you, Blaze. I don't think this thread will allow for that but hopefully it can come about.

On a personal level, I don't want to be sitting in threads saying "Spike fans are why I hate the character." That feels like the defeat of all reason to me and totally unfair to the wonderful Spike fans I know in fandom and have wonderful, interesting and fun conversations with. But to come in to a thread like this, be asked your opinion and then post after post be told how you are wrong about something so totally subjective that no basis for reason can be found in it, it's beyond tedious. This question in particular can't even be backed by canon because the thing that Spike did that I hate, is the same thing that maybe another fan loved about him.

 

[Robb Stark]

I don't really have a problem with anyone hating Spike but I think naturally in a place like this you'll question why and give counter arguments. If you discover that a poster hates one character for something but loves another character who has done something similar it's only natural to raise questions.

But that's not what happens with every other character, as has been pointed out several times now. As others have said, the discourse towards Buffy, Angel, Willow, Xander, Tara, Giles all gets talked about, but with NONE of the rage that it does with Spike. I don't think that can be objectively denied. We've had about a hundred really heated Spike debates, maybe one or two about Buffy and Angel, and I think one about Willow. That's about it. Me and @black eyed guy disagree very much on Willow, but as a huge Willow fan he doesn't go ballistic when when we disagree. The Spike debates on the other hand, which have been more prevalent lately, get almost universally sidetracked by a hardcore Spike diehard throwing out persecution and "don't tell me what to think!" claims, when that just isn't what happens.

This is coming from a Spike FAN here (and before I get any condescending "well it doesn't sound like you're a fan to me" remarks, I haven't said one critical thing about Spike in this post. I'm illustrating a separate point that relates to the topic).

 

[bespangeled]

When you ask a group of people why they dislike the thing you like, don't be shocked when you get pages full of negative comments about the thing you like.

Unless you are trying to understand another POV there is no purpose to this thread other than a lot of people pissing each other off massively.

And so what if someone hates the thing you like. Who cares? Why give total strangers that sort of power over you? The default reaction to encountering negative comments about something you like doesn't have to be challenging that opinion.

This has been really an interesting thread, actually. I started it because I'm curious - and it has given me a lot of what I asked for. But my ego and emotions aren't involved - I'm not giving them power over me. Mostly I am giving them a chance to be heard, and myself a chance to learn. But it does seem the thread has really grown, and I'm still catching up.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Well I wasn't the one to open up this thread, which as you can see has turned out to be yet another futile exercise in tying to see each others viewpoints.

As I've said before I don't excuse Spike for all the evil things he's done, (his redemption arc would mean nothing If he hadn't) I just happen to think he and his fans aren't the huge threat against world peace that some on here seem to like to make out sometimes. 😀 lol

Not futile to me - actually pretty interesting. A lot of the hate seems to date back to the old shipper wars. In fact, we are back to the spuffy & bangel paradigm.

Then there is season 4 where Joss & co had added Spike in but had no idea what to do with him. I can see the quandary. There are two possible categories for Spike here that I see:
1)he's a vampire and even if he can't hurt humans, he still should be staked for plotting against Buffy & co, and trying to bring them down.
2) he's a vampire and he he's a major asshole with a side of dick, but he's not a particularly effective demon and we don't kill just because someone annoys the crap out of us.

I don't really like either one of them, but I think this goes toward Buffy increasing her understanding of the fact that demon issues are not b&w. Oz in the initiative is the perfect example - he's a werewolf but it's harrowing to see how he's treated by those who see him just as a demon.

Season 5 seems okay - 6 & 7 are problematical, sometimes for opposite reasons.

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

I have been doing this thing for the last month or so where I decided that I would not post about Spike here anymore. Having to deal with him everyday ruined my enjoyment of fandom and I was sick to death of spending so much time talking about a character that I have zero interest in. It was working out pretty well (until this thread 😉). I was having discussions about different characters, engaging with different members here. It was fun. Oh well...

There are loads of reasons I hate Spike and all of them are particular to me. Mostly, the character bores me to death. But in general, the archetypal Spike character in any work of fiction will put me off in a major way, see: Loki and Damon Salvatore. I can't take him seriously. I don't like him soulless, chipped or soulled. There's nothing about him I relate to or admire. From his stupid hair to his poser Cockney accent, he bugs the living Hell out of me. I find his pursuit of Buffy disgusting and the subsequent relationship in S6 more than disturbing. I dislike how he piggybacks someone elses' story and never has one of his own. I hate how he was turned into Buffy's only ally in S7 when Scooby relations should have been the focus. I hate that he was wedged into Angel for no reason when Cordy or Lilah could have been there. I just don't like the guy. Nothing to do with my ship, but everything to do with him.

The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily mind so much if his importance wasn't inflated to the point of hilarity in fandom. Spike isn't a crucial character in the verse, you can take him out and not a whole lot changes, just look at S8; he turned up, told Buffy she was stupid and then smoked for the rest of the issues. That's it. But with the sheer amount of time he occupies in fandom you'd swear he was the Messiah.

Even though I don't agree, I can definitely relate to that. It's a bitch when it seems so much of any fandom is shouting at each other over something you really can't find a shit to give.

What I see, though, is an awful lot of energy coming from both sides of the aisle. It's back to that circular conversation where we all know the script. And it really has defined fandom from the outside, too - I mean, look at the outsider media articles and polls and you'll see that it's all about Angel vs Spike in the popular media. It's really impossible to get away from.

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

Though not actually pertinent to this discussion, I would just like to say that since I have for the most part dropped out of arguments of this nature, my blood pressure has dropped 20 points and I no longer have to take certain medication. Coincidence? Possibly, but I have no intention of putting it to the test. But I have finally accepted the simple fact that I am right and everyone else is wrong, and that other people with opposing views feel exactly the same way.

Simply my personal opinion, but I firmly believe that if more people would seriously consider following my example, discussions like this would be a whole lot more civil, as well as a lot more fun to participate in.

Pretty much like it was when I first came here.

I did the same thing with news. For the same reason and with the same results. 🙂

But this is one thread started out of genuine curiosity. Definitely okay to give it a pass just like any other thread.

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Not really. Imo you could just introduce a new character. Apart from Buffy nobody was irreplaceable.

I think Spike is crucial - but I think all the main characters are crucial.

Then again, I think season 6 is torturous because the main character is suffering from crippling depression. It wouldn't really work to have an upbeat season there.

 

[The Bronze]

The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily mind so much if his importance wasn't inflated to the point of hilarity in fandom. Spike isn't a crucial character in the verse, you can take him out and not a whole lot changes, just look at S8; he turned up, told Buffy she was stupid and then smoked for the rest of the issues. That's it. But with the sheer amount of time he occupies in fandom you'd swear he was the Messiah.

Isn't that claim a bit of a stretch? Given that Spike has killed 2 slayers I would say he's a crucial character in the verse. Change those circumstances and perhaps Buffy wouldn't have been called.

 

[bespangeled]

Well there's a few interesting points raised in here and a few people look like they're a little on edge waiting for something to kick off. I've been in the Spike corner for a few of the recent threads, not entirely sure which variant of Spike fan people on here will have me down as though.

I don't really have a problem with anyone hating Spike but I think naturally in a place like this you'll question why and give counter arguments. If you discover that a poster hates one character for something but loves another character who has done something similar it's only natural to raise questions.

I find it a little odd that people hate Spike due to issue with the writers though. The argument going "the writers wanted x so they made Spike do y" or "the writers wanted x so they made y happen to Spike". That's just how fiction works I'm afraid. Every character is dictated to by the writers in order to fit the story they're telling. It's not unique to Spike.

From the conversations I've had it seems the main dislike or at least a large amount of the dislike for Spike stems from the fans the character. I find that to be a little sad that a random group of people can affect others perception of something that they watch independant of them and that it can colour their opinions of it as well. I've seen it stated out right that people have only started hating Spike after talking to his fans which is a shame.

I finally don't have a problem either. I've gone from protective mama bear to wtf, this is really kind of interesting. And I really don't see anyone expressing the kind of hate that is not at all rational.

I think the irrational part is really fan related and not character related. Yes, some people can't stand the things the character does, but he really does some inexcusable things. The rest seem to object to how the show is structured and why it just doesn't work for them. Again - I'm not in that group but I can related. I have loved shows that went off in a direction I hated (SPN and the leviathans....gag!) and it's frustrating.

But I do see the kind of stereotyping that's hard to resist - sometimes I have to remind myself that not all churches are Westboro Baptist or even WB-lite. Because those are the ones that gather all the attention from the media, while churches doing good stuff are seldom even noticed.

On LJ I see a lot of fans from both side of this issue - all sides of the show - and other shows doing a fundraiser for a fan who lost her husband. But no one sees the cooperation part because it doesn't draw sparks or create fireworks.

 

[Robb Stark]

I don't think there's anything wrong with with critiquing where the writers/producers directed their energy in terms of storytelling. If you don't like a story and it's focused heavily on a specific character, that's a perfectly valid reason to personally dislike that character. What's the problem with that?

 

[Kean]

Isn't that claim a bit of a stretch? Given that Spike has killed 2 slayers I would say he's a crucial character in the verse. Change those circumstances and perhaps Buffy wouldn't have been called.

I don't know, maybe it is but when I go season by season and consider his role in them and the impact he has, for me the show actually gets better if he is removed (especially S6 & S7.) Obviously for a Spike fan that is not going to be the case. But from where I am sitting, Spike is always getting in the way of the storytelling that I want to see, especially in the last 2/3 seasons.

 

[bespangeled]

But that's not what happens with every other character, as has been pointed out several times now. As others have said, the discourse towards Buffy, Angel, Willow, Xander, Tara, Giles all gets talked about, but with NONE of the rage that it does with Spike. I don't think that can be objectively denied. We've had about a hundred really heated Spike debates, maybe one or two about Buffy and Angel, and I think one about Willow. That's about it. Me and @black eyed guy disagree very much on Willow, but as a huge Willow fan he doesn't go ballistic when when we disagree. The Spike debates on the other hand, which have been more prevalent lately, get almost universally sidetracked by a hardcore Spike diehard throwing out persecution and "don't tell me what to think!" claims, when that just isn't what happens.

This is coming from a Spike FAN here (and before I get any condescending "well it doesn't sound like you're a fan to me" remarks, I haven't said one critical thing about Spike in this post. I'm illustrating a separate point that relates to the topic).

I agree - it doesn't get talked about in relation to other characters. That is really why I started the thread. I want to know why the difference? I've met people who hate pretty much any character and will happily explain why.

Willow is power hungry. Tara is dull. Dawn is terminally annoying. Xander is even more annoying - etc. So the talk is out there. My curiosity is exactly what you mention - why is Spike hate comparatively nuclear?

I am new here - but I do see a lot of people objecting to Spike fans as the only problem. My experience is that there really are two sides to every problem - so this isn't happening in a vacuum. So I wonder what more there is to that hate.

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 PM ----------

I don't think there's anything wrong with with critiquing where the writers/producers directed their energy in terms of storytelling. If you don't like a story and it's focused heavily on a specific character, that's a perfectly valid reason to personally dislike that character. What's the problem with that?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. If this is directed to me. I am trying to figure out how much that effects perceptions of the character, though.

It's okay if people hate the idea of this thread - or hate this thread. Not sure why a few people seem to have taken the time to post that they don't like this thread even existing. because it does already exist - so why take the energy. Kind of a circular thing right there - why is there Spike hatred - there's already too much attention to Spike so don't ask - but I am curious why there is too/so much attention which is why I started the thread.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

I don't know, maybe it is but when I go season by season and consider his role in them and the impact he has, for me the show actually gets better if he is removed (especially S6 & S7.) Obviously for a Spike fan that is not going to be the case. But from where I am sitting, Spike is always getting in the way of the storytelling that I want to see, especially in the last 2/3 seasons.

Legit - and something a lot of people have trouble with. The show changed networks and tone - it became something it had never been.

Season 6 is a definite change - I see Spike as one more character making horrible choices. To me, the season is about consequences and all the characters have to deal with the fallout from choices they made. 😱

Season 7 - very disjointed. I like some episodes....which are probably the ones you hate. 🙂

 

[Doppelgang]

I was preparing a big answer to this, but then the hellmouth opened up underneath me 😀

I will take that as a sign to steer clear I think, as a lot of this debate seems to have been about a more recent conflict of opinions, rather than the more friendly Spuffy and Bangel debates I remember from the past.

I will just say in my case that I did at times become too emotionally involved in the Spike character, identifying with some aspect of it that seemed to transcend the show and point towards a feature of humanity and the world in general. And when you are emotionally involved like that you become blinded to any counter arguments, and so to any negative aspects of the character. First time round watching I was just so caught up in wanting Spike to get the girl, living vicariously through the Spike character that I didn't see all the negative aspects of his character that developed in season 6, until the seeing red moment, but that is when he feels ashamed and goes off to get his soul. I blanked out all the other negative things in his character that led up to this during season 6, so I can see why others who did see this would then develop a dislike for Spike, based as much on the Spike fans perspective as anything else.

But then you have to remember, it was all part of the show, and it was all part of what season 6 was about. And season 6 was edgy in many ways, and he was an evil vampire.

 

[Kean]

Legit - and something a lot of people have trouble with. The show changed networks and tone - it became something it had never been.

Season 6 is a definite change - I see Spike as one more character making horrible choices. To me, the season is about consequences and all the characters have to deal with the fallout from choices they made. 😱

Season 7 - very disjointed. I like some episodes....which are probably the ones you hate. 🙂

In fairness, Spike isn't the only reason I dislike the seasons in question. But he is a major part of it. For me, my Buffy, the hero, and the show, died when she jumped off the tower in The Gift. But S6 especially and Spike's actions towards Buffy in that season I find really just appalling and I think the struggle many people who dislike Spike have in fandom is that S6 Spike is often perceived as tragically romantic and that can be very hard to reconcile.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, I'll just add my 11 cents that if you look at what happened with this thread, that people were asked why they didn't like Spike, and then when they answered, told basically that they were bashing Spike...you can see why many people are reluctant to give the pro-Spike POV a chance...

Then the other people get frustrated and annoyed, their opinion of Spike fans as a whole goes down, and we end up in a negativity spiral.