Am I the only one who loves angel flaws in all?

[angelfanatic]

I asked because I haven’t really joined the fandom I grew up with the shows but never interacted until now. I noticed everyone seems to hate angel and shocks me because I thought he was popular hence why he got a spin off. I loved angel since I was a kid and I could never see myself hating him. I relate to him a lot so there’s that.

 

[fauxindigo]

I think he must've been a popular character back when Buffy first started airing in 1997, since he was her hunky love interest, and of course he got his spinoff in 1999 but I think over time, some fans like me look back and see the difference between his character on BtVS vs. his character on his own series Angel.
It seems like the majority of the time on BtVS, especially when he's around Buffy, he is tortured, broody, melodrama etc.. On his own show, he seems more free and we see him smiling much more; of course this isn't just due to not being around Buffy or being the focus/main character himself, but he's also really not the most likable character. He was a lazy drunken womanizer before becoming a mass murdering vampire and yes, he does good/saves peoples lives but his soul was forced on him (Spike actually sought it out by choice) and some would argue that it's really creepy for a 250 year old to be stalking a 15/16 year old Buffy (but Spike is really no better so...) And although I do think 'Bangel' has its sweet/pureness, I don't feel like Buffy & Angel belong together (unless he turned human again).

I grew to really like Angel in his own show though- his love for & protection of Connor, Cordelia, Fred & Doyle.. and there are many moments scattered throughout the entire series where Angel is very funny and fun! Dear Boy (my favorite Karaoke at Caritas moment- Angel singing Everybody Have Fun tonight), Disharmony, The Pylea Arc, Smile Time to name a few.

 

[angelfanatic]

What makes you relate to him?

Well for one I relate to his reserved nature and the struggle with our past selves. And the need to help people and want to do the right thing. Believe me when I say I am doing my own atonement especially after getting out of a toxic friendship. I just see a lot of myself in him. Also I kindly disagree on spike because I feel he only got a soul for Buffy not for any other reason but that’s a discussion for another time. I just feel a lot of the hate angel gets feels like people ignore all the horrible things spike did just because he made a choice to get a soul. I am not a fan of the loud in your face characters so there’s that. But I did like spike in the early seasons though.

 

[Bop]

You're definitely not the only one, Angel is still popular there's just a lot of very vocal detractors. I love him and I think he's got a very relatable personality especially on his own show.

 

[thrasherpix]

I love his character, flaws and all...doesn't mean I won't criticize him or his choices/reasoning at times as I can any character--and yet, it's very difficult for me to love one who is truly perfect and right all the time (I don't think I can if the character is human, including vampire, instead of some sort of alien entity).

But I do think of the characters as people in a story rather than real life people I mingle with, which I think is different from some people, who feel like I'm trash talking their real life friends and (fantasy) lovers, when to me I'm just talking story and metastory.

 

[famicommander]

I think Angel is a self-absorbed, whiny scumbag who doesn't really learn from his mistakes or respect the agency of the people around him.

I also think it's completely unforgivable to stalk and then begin a relationship with a 15/16 year old. He sees her at her school in LA when she's eating candy and pining over boys, he follows her to the graveyard, he peers into her windows to watch her at night (seriously, how is ANYONE okay with a grown man peering into a teenage girl's bedroom windows at night?), then he moves to Sunnydale to wait for her and begins following her around there too. Overall he'd been following her for about a year before she ever knew he existed. That's just next level creeper stuff. Then he vocalizes that they can't be together due to the age difference, then kisses Buffy seconds later anyway, then the following year commits statutory rape, then after he gets back from hell he leaves her because she's still essentially a kid who doesn't know what she wants. And then he starts doing the same stuff with Cordelia, whom he also met when she was 16 and he was over 240. He knows their relationship would be doomed in the same way and for the same reasons as his relationship with Buffy but he pursues it anyway.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

First of all, Angel is not 27. Vampires are stuck in a perpetual state of arrested development, probably stuck at age 15 or 16. They don't die, they don't age. They don't diminish as they get older. Heck, they don't even read. Nothing that causes us to mature applies to them in any way, it's just a perpetual adolescent power trip. Angel is an abject coward in the first season, he learns how to be a man from Buffy.

I would also argue that it doesn't matter how he or Spike got his soul back, it matters what they did after they got it back. Both have dedicated the the remainder of their physical existence to the good fight, to paying whatever part of their redemption they can afford. I mean, this is like saying Liam was drafted, yet William joined the army to kill people and impress girls, but both fought valiantly, and received honors.

And this the problem, Spike is the better character played by a better actor. That doesn't make Angel, his story or his actor bad, it just means he was outclassed.

 

[Stake fodder]

My main knowledge of the fandom is this board, but I would say Angel is fairly liked here. But like @thrasherpix said, we may like him and even like his flaws, but still criticize his choices. I feel like there's often a competition set up between Spike and Angel, whereas in reality, they are both deeply flawed and also both well-liked.

 

[thetopher]

Angel is one of my top five; flaws and all. He is a different kind of hero than Buffy, a darker one existing in a much darker, murkier world. I sort of thing of him as the 'heroic bonehead' archetype. He grows and changes from season to season, from Buffy's show to his own, getting better all the time, but his fundamental flaw remains the same. But that fundamental flaw is also what drives him to so many acts of amazing heroism.

I love how the writers weren't afraid to deconstruct Angel's character and even how he views himself, even as they use him to explore greater themes of guilt, redemption and forgiveness.

Post automatically merged: Jan 11, 2023

seriously, how is ANYONE okay with a grown man peering into a teenage girl's bedroom windows at night?

Since you asked the question I'll answer; context. Contest matters. As to motivation and nuance. You seem to misconstrue Angel's motivation at every turn and well as have zero interest in nuance regarding his character. This is how others are able top see things you cannot. 🙂

 

[BibliophileAnn]

I too love the character Angel in spite of his flaws. His flaws make him more human and relatable.

 

[famicommander]

Since you asked the question I'll answer; context. Contest matters. As to motivation and nuance. You seem to misconstrue Angel's motivation at every turn and well as have zero interest in nuance regarding his character. This is how others are able top see things you cannot. 🙂

There is literally no context where it's okay for a grown man to peer into a teenage girl's bedroom and bathroom windows without her knowledge in the middle of the night. There is literally no context where it's okay to follow someone around for a year and then begin a relationship with them without disclosing the fact that you've been following them for a year. There is literally no context where it's okay for an adult to have sex with a minor.

There is no nuance. There is no context that makes it okay.

 

[Plasma]

Let’s try to keep it respectful, please. We all have different opinions, viewpoints, and tastes. Some might see things that others do not and vice versa. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

There is literally no context where it's okay for a grown man to peer into a teenage girl's bedroom and bathroom windows without her knowledge in the middle of the night.

Angel was told to go and check Buffy out to see if he wanted to help her. It's a job, like body-guarding or shadowing/helping the mystic chosen one. Angel sees that she is upset/unprepared/alone and feels empathy for her situation so he decides that he wants to help.

There is literally no context where it's okay to follow someone around for a year

Where are you getting this from? Angel didn't follow Buffy around for a year. He spied on her when she first became a slayer and then he went and told Whistler that he wanted to help, then they went and got Angel ready because he was all smelly and weak, and he then waited until Buffy got to Sunnydale (see 'The Wish').

On the second night in Sunnydale Angel follows Buffy (to offer help/information) gets caught and that's where their interactions begin.

There is no year. Your failure to grasp this throws all your other assertions into serious doubt.

There is literally no context where it's okay to follow someone around for a year and then begin a relationship with them without disclosing the fact that you've been following them for a year.

Buffy finds out the moment she kicks Angel's ass the first time he follows her/they meet, then he confesses much later on that he saw her before she became the slayer and Buffy doesn't really seem to mind so much.

There is literally no context where it's okay for an adult to have sex with a minor.

Yes, 17 is technically a minor in the US. In certain states. But in other states or in the UK it is not because Buffy would be deemed an adult. Let me introduce you to the mind-blowing concept of legalities based on geographic location.

So you're literally wrong because the definition of minor is, in and of itself, nuanced and contextual.

Are there moral problems with the whole Bangel thing? Sure, I think so to, but it is up for debate among the fandom.

 

[famicommander]

Angel was told to do something by someone else who had never met Buffy. Whistler is not in any position to make allowances on Buffy's behalf. And even still, he didn't tell Angel to hide in her bushes and peer into her windows in the middle of the night. That was Angel's idea.

You don't get to find out after the fact whether the person you've been stalking is okay with it. Especially when you declare in your own words that you were already in love with her from the jump, when she was 15.

You don't get to tell the judge and jury when you get charged with statutory rape that the girl is legal in some other jurisdiction. Buffy was a minor in the place and time the event took place. 12 year olds are legal in some places. Doesn't make it remotely okay.

The very idea that following a teenage girl around, declaring yourself in love with her at 15, peering into her windows in the middle of the night, vocalizing that it's not okay to be with her due to the age gap, kissing her seconds later, then having sex with her a full year before she reaches the age of consent is even a topic of debate is pretty absurd.

 

[Taake]

Let’s try to keep it respectful, please. We all have different opinions, viewpoints, and tastes. Some might see things that others do not and vice versa. 🙂

Repeated point ^^
Fandom is one big debate. About pretty much everything. Let’s try to discuss more calmly and politely here, ok?



From my end: It’s a supernatural vampire show, the ”real world” implications of a lot of things are highly questionable. It is absurd to take anything from it as directly relatable to real life.

 

[Angelkiss]

I love Angel too, since his first appearance on screen and yes flaws and all. When he first met Buffy, their banter, oh how he protects and loves her. I love his jealousy when Buffy mentions other boys that are either friends or potential boyfriends and boyfriends. One of my favorite episodes was I Only Have Eyes For You?

 

[Angel6]

I asked because I haven’t really joined the fandom I grew up with the shows but never interacted until now. I noticed everyone seems to hate angel and shocks me because I thought he was popular hence why he got a spin off. I loved angel since I was a kid and I could never see myself hating him. I relate to him a lot so there’s that.

Angels my boy. Don’t worry, you aren’t alone. The detractors mainly didn’t watch it from the start and just Stan Spuffy. There’s weird Spuffy people on Twitter and Reddit. Real weird.

 

[The Bronze]

12 year olds are legal in some places. Doesn't make it remotely okay.

Yeah exactly. Legal doesn't always equal moral, see all of history. So a vampire having sex with a 17 year old is no more or less moral in California than anywhere else. From my view Buffy was clearly capable of informed consent, it's a non issue.

 

[thetopher]

Angel was told to do something by someone else who had never met Buffy. Whistler is not in any position to make allowances on Buffy's behalf. And even still, he didn't tell Angel to hide in her bushes and peer into her windows in the middle of the night. That was Angel's idea.

Way to spectacularly miss the point of what I was saying. I was talking in terms of motivation.

'Stalking' the loaded term you always use, denotes dangerous obsession and sexual interest which does not fit with Angel pre-S1 or indeed for most of his actions in S1 or 2 or 3 (Unless he's Angelus).
Angel could be spying, following, assessing, judging, trying to figure out why Whistler directed him to this young woman in the first place and then being surprised by what he sees; a slayer being called, a young woman killing vampires, a miserable home life. I see nothing here that would make him 'hot for Buffy'.
Yes, he's doing it discreetly because he doesn't want to draw attention, but 'stalking' is prescribing a obsessive and sexual motivation to actions that are not necessarily that.

That's a you problem, not an Angel problem.

You don't get to find out after the fact whether the person you've been stalking is okay with it.

No, and neither do you. Buffy does. She states when she is not okay with being followed and states when she doesn't really care.

Especially when you declare in your own words that you were already in love with her from the jump, when she was 15.

Interesting that you cast all of Angel's actions in the very worst light but then at the same time instantly take him at his word.

To me, I think Angel was speaking in romantic terms to Buffy when he states 'love at first sight' as I would do with anybody who says it. I don't really take them seriously, especially if they were childhood sweethearts or the like.

Angel doesn't act like he's in love with Buffy for most of S1 (and vice versa) so I doubt he was being literal.

Buffy was a minor in the place and time the event took place. 12 year olds are legal in some places. Doesn't make it remotely okay.

Yes, legality and morality are quite distinct. And 17 is not remotely 12. The law even recognizes as such.

 

[Plasma]

Once again, let’s keep it respectful please.