Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

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Yeah I was thinking that. I was a kid when Cheers came out so not incredibly intune but wasn’t the thing that once they slept together it kind of ended?
It didn't actually. They went on for 5 seasons in total. It's just that when they first go together the writers (and probably the fans too) knew that they were never going to be able to top that moment. And they never did (Not that I'm complaining; it was awesome. But I am an uber Sam/Diane fan so I did want them to last).

The B/A bickering wasn't quite the same though, was it? The S1-early S2 stuff was quite teen-ish on Buffy's part (acceptable given that she was a teen) so it wasn't the adult-style fiery bickering that you see with other love/hate pairings. Angel also wasn't around enough for it to be a sustained thing; there wasn't much of a structure to the start of their arc in those early episodes, which is a shame.
 
dcai0830: I currently looking at Sam and Diane fan vids. Lol

Check out clips of their fight/kiss at the end of S1, and their slap-fight in S2. Those are my favourite classic moments.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
I currently looking at Sam and Diane fan vids. Lol
I think the "Buffy/Angel is boring/unrealistic" argument comes from people who prefer the love/hate will they/won't they style buildup to a relationship rather than instant mutual attraction and lots of steamy eye contact even if it still takes a while to start dating.

Give me the mutual attraction with external obstacles over the wear-her-down trope any day! That's the one that I hate the most.
 
You know, in addition it always bothers me that barely any people acknowledge that Angel has been raped multiple times by Darla. She was having sex with him after she made him fall asleep 😱

When they like the character and the actor is engaging, fans ignore the fact that their fave has raped someone (Faith, Darla, Spike, Willow).

People on a different site didn't get how I could compare Dangel to Spuffy. I can't get how anyone can't see the similarities.

Angel or Buffy?
* suffers suicidal depression
* thinks Earth is like Hell
* becomes estranged from friends
* blonde vampire spent months trying seduce our hero into darkness and trying to be good
* blonde vampire is jealous of Bangel
* blonde vampire repeatedly broke into the hero's home
* blonde vampire snuck into the hero's bedroom while they were asleep naked
* has "despair/misery" sex with blonde soulless Aurelius vampire
* the morning after, threatened to kill the blonde vampire
* blonde vampire left town but came back months later with a big surprise
* a human male hunter wants to kill blonde vampire for crimes committed to his female family many years ago
* blonde vampire sacrifices their life
* blonde vampire died in Sunnydale and was resurrected by Lindsey in LA to mess with Angel and worked for WR&H
 
Give me the mutual attraction with external obstacles over the wear-her-down trope any day! That's the one that I hate the most.

Right?! How can wear-her-down be more appealing to anyone? I mean, there are much better ways to woo someone who isn't interested than by badgering them and guilting them into reciprocating! This is actually a huge part of the appeal of Mr. Darcy. He's upset at first when Elizabeth rejects his super condescending proposal, but then he takes a good long look at himself and puts in the effort to address his major character flaws and rectify past mistakes. Not because he expects her to then fall into his arms—he doesn't even expect to see her again! Similar thing with Harry and Ginny: Harry was never going to fall for the spazzy fangirl who couldn't even speak to him, but he could definitely fall for the funny, feisty athlete who stands up for other kids who get picked on. Angel kind of does this too. When he sees Buffy and realizes what she'll have to go through, it's inspiring enough for him to pick himself up out of the gutter because he's no use to her there. He doesn't do it because he's trying to get her to fall for him. That happens by accident.

Even Han undergoes a lot of character development between "Do you think a princess and a guy like me...?" and "I'm nice men": risking his life to bail Luke out against extremely steep odds in the battle of Yavin IV, risking his life again to rescue Luke on Hoth, and sticking around to help the rebellion in general, despite initially only being in it for the money. People criticize Han and Leia's first kiss, but Leia definitely noticed all of that character development and was just clinging to the last shreds of her initial dislike because it would be embarrassing to admit her feelings before he admitted his. So, basically, the most effective wooing strategy is unassuming character growth.

Which brings us back to the love/hate thing. The key issue, I think, is the nature of the bickering. I actually have some experience with this. There was one boy in high school who would argue politics and religion with me every chance he got (which was a lot, because our last names start with the same letter, so he was almost always seated right next to me when we had assigned seating), frequently mocking and belittling my beliefs and interests. When people speculated that he might have a crush on me, I was revolted. There was another boy who was consistently annoying in more shallow ways, but the second I found out that he liked me, all of my irritation evaporated and, to my surprise, I found myself deeply flattered. (Nothing came of it because my family moved to a different state less than a month later, though.) So, is the bickering over dumb little stuff that doesn't matter? If so, it might be a defense mechanism two very stubborn people are using to guard against their own feelings. Is it over deeply held beliefs? Then the instigator might just be a jerk who takes pleasure in harassing others. Xander and Cordelia conceivably fall into the defense mechanism bickering camp (although it seems a bit borderline), as do Ron/Hermione, Han/Leia, and Beatrice/Benedick. Buffy and Spike are blatantly in the latter camp.

Which brings us back to wear-her-down. I *hate* ships where the guy is all "you know you want it" and will not leave the girl alone, Biff Tannen style. That's why Buffy/Spike is one of my biggest NOTPs (the other is Caroline/Klaus, for almost exactly the same reasons). Sometimes—often, even—, the girl actually doesn't want it at all. Fancy that. Sometimes, she might be a little bit attracted deep down, but so what? Sometimes we like things that are bad for us, and denying ourselves those things does not mean we're lying to ourselves, it means we are wisely exercising self control.
 
Mylie
Mylie
I hate those kinds of ships too. Another one like that is Captain Swan.
Sometimes we like things that are bad for us, and denying ourselves those things does not mean we're lying to ourselves, it means we are wisely exercising self control.

This is incredibly wise. Oh to go back in time to my early 20s and impart this seed of knowledge.
 
Even Han undergoes a lot of character development between "Do you think a princess and a guy like me...?" and "I'm nice men": risking his life to bail Luke out against extremely steep odds in the battle of Yavin IV, risking his life again to rescue Luke on Hoth, and sticking around to help the rebellion in general, despite initially only being in it for the money. People criticize Han and Leia's first kiss, but Leia definitely noticed all of that character development and was just clinging to the last shreds of her initial dislike because it would be embarrassing to admit her feelings before he admitted his. So, basically, the most effective wooing strategy is unassuming character growth.
Really? Leia is pretty clear on her feelings about Han ... or lack there of. Because of storytelling conventions, we are meant to assume it is merely posturing, but she does tell him she does not like him, that he disgusts her and to leave her alone.

Sure, Han risks his life to save his bro, which means he not be as selfish as he first appears to be, but I don't see how that makes Leia's protests less convincing.
 
Would Buffy even like Angel if she realized what a dork he could be instead of the mysterious guy?

This never made sense. Buffy wanted him to open up more. She dreamt of him as a human so they could have experiences together that at the time as a vampire he was too insecure to do. She would've loved if he cooked her breakfast and took her to the ballet and joked around and they sang karaoke and went out to dinner with friends and all the other human-ish things he did on AtS.

Did they really think Buffy wanted her first romantic relationship to be filled with so much drama? She loves Angel and the drama was just the baggage that came with being with him at the time.

And they did go ice skating, watched movies, had indoor picnics, etc. Angel could get snarky and playful. He didn't get a complete personality transplant when he got his own show.
 
Would Buffy even like Angel if she realized what a dork he could be instead of the mysterious guy?

I had never heard this argument. I naturally assumed Buffy knew was a hot dork. They spent nearly 3 years together. We didn't see it all. I'm sure she knew and loved him for all his hot dorkiness.
 
Spike was able to love Buffy without his soul, Angel couldn't

I don't get this argument... I would never want to be loved by someone who doesn't have a soul? First, I'd run for my life. Second, I'd worry about what it says about me, lol.

As for the Angel part, I don't care much about Angelus. He's interesting and it is nice to see the similarities and differences between him and Angel but I don't care about what he wants. I care about what soulful Angel wants. Because he's the one who I want to see happy (though not too much), and more importantly, he's the one Buffy loved.

@dcai0830
I often see that one on tumblr but I had forgotten about it, lol
 
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Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Just saw this one.
Spike was able to love Buffy without his soul, Angel couldn't
This one trips me up because it's words vs actions. Spike constantly says he loves her but he doesn't show it. Stalking isn't love, abuse isn't love and attempted rape sure as heck isn't love. When looking at Spike's actions, it's all obsession/possession and not love. So he watched Dawn from time to time because he loves those Summers girls...we all know it was just to score points with Buffy because as soon as he dips his penis in the Buffy jar, he drops Dawn like a hot potato. Looks like people fell for Spike's unrelenting declarations of love even though his actions proved the opposite. I'm always on the side of 'words are empty unless your actions back them up'.

It's the same nonsense that Whedon spews even during the 20th. Spike is the long haul guy because he got a soul for her. Argh. Why? First of all getting the soul was an utterly selfish act done in the name of vengeance. What the heck is so romantic about that? The guy abused and attempted to rape her but hey, he got her a big present so all is well. It's sick but as we have learned Whedon is a sicko so I guess that explains it. Yay rape culture. Then of course there is the fact that having a soul doesn't matter much if you don't actually use it. And third, if it counts for souled Spike that soulles Spike got a soul, then everything soulless Spike did counts where souled Spike is concerned. Because then souled Spike isn't a new person deserving of a chance, he is the same guy as soulles Spike. Can't have it both ways Whedon.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
Love this whole post especially "dips his penis in the Buffy jar"
I hate the "he got a soul for her" lie.

Spike told Buffy in Beneath You the real reasons he chose to get a soul.

1) so she would have sex with him "Girl doesn't want to be serviced because there's no spark (soul)" "They put the spark (soul) in me and now all it does is burn."
2) so she would love him "Why does a man do what he musn't? For her. To be hers." "And he will be loved."
3) so she'd forgive him for trying to rape her "And she shall look upon him with forgiveness and love."

Angel proved in Amends, Prom, & IWRY that he is willing to do whatever it takes to keep his soul and prevent hurting Buffy. He was going to commit suicide--actually stand in the sunlight and get incinerated. He broke up with her and left town to try to GIVE HER WHAT SHE DESERVED. He gave up his humanity. Angel loves Buffy enough to sacrifice his chance with her.

Spike and the writers said he was "giving her what she deserves" but she rejected him, told him to get over it and move on, said she doesn't love him, didn't want anyone to know she ever let him touch her, and only ever consented because she was suffering severe depression & PTSD. But sure, Jan, what Buffy was thinking in Seeing Red when pain shot through her injured back as Spike held her down and tried to rip off her clothes and spread her thighs as she cried was, "If only Spike would get a soul so I could be loved like I deserve and then we can be together because he's The One."

I hate that in CWDP the writers had her say that during the Spuffy sexual affair she "didn't want to be loved" as though that were the reason she rejected him. Same with the comics. When Buffy didn't jump to get with Spike, she was accused by other characters of not wanting to be happy. Because somehow her happiness can only happen if Spike is getting what he wants. That's the opposite of Angel.
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
I agree with this
Buffy was way too young. Imaging Angel having a relationship with Dawn!!! Gross, he' such a pedophile 😱

I actually want to pull out my hair whenever I hear this 😡 Unfortunately, I'm not good at clap backs 😳 Any suggestions?
 
Buffy was way too young. Imaging Angel having a relationship with Dawn!!! Gross, he' such a pedophile 😱

I actually want to pull out my hair whenever I hear this 😡 Unfortunately, I'm not good at clap backs 😳 Any suggestions?
We've actually discussed that. I think on page 1? I have the perfect rebuttal for it (also on that page).
 
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
Ooh darn sorry about that
I love the pedophile argument to be honest. It just shows that some people are, as Spike would say, 'uneducated morons'. Angel doesn't qualify even remotely for a pedophile. Pedophilia is people of age 16 (give or take) and older being interested in pre-pubescent children. Buffy is not that, not even close.

The second reason I love it, it's people blatantly ignoring show canon, just to hate on a character or to dismiss a ship. When he was souled, meaning as Liam and Angel, Buffy was the odd one out in terms of age. All the other females were women in their 20's or older. Buffy is an exception rather than a rule.

And yes, William was clearly way past 30 when he was sired. And supposedly Spike's been having the hots for Buffy since S2. Kinda makes him a pedophile then too, no? But in general, just because Buffy is 2 years older or so in S5 makes all the difference? There is a lot wrong with Spuffy but the age difference between the actors always added to the ick factor. There are 15 years between them, JM is almost old enough to be SMGs father. And by S6 and especially S7 he really started showing his age in his face.

These are vampires. In Angel's case even a 100 year old woman would be considered too young.

Yes, the perfect response! 😀
 
RomanticSoul
RomanticSoul
Next time you have ammunition to shoot back. Just tell people to look up the definition of what 'pedophile' means.
Buffy was way too young. Imaging Angel having a relationship with Dawn!!! Gross, he' such a pedophile 😱

I actually want to pull out my hair whenever I hear this 😡 Unfortunately, I'm not good at clap backs 😳 Any suggestions?

A few things. First, when Dawn is introduced she was 14 BUT she was originally supposed to be 12 so she is written much younger. Her manuerisms are much more akin to a 12 yr old rather than a 14 yr old and I think generally even in S6/7 Dawn was played down in age rather than the TV 15/16 year old.

By the time we “meet” Buffy on the show she is TV 16 she is played older, dating guys like Owen (who lets face it looks just as old as Angel). Joss has repeatedly said in interviews that she was much older than your typical 16 year old because she has the weight of the world on her shoulders. And then Angel and her did not consumate their relationship until her 17th birthday an age which even outside TV make believe land is the age of consent (some places even younger).

From Angel’s perspective in his time women were married or betrothed at Buffy’s age (the age of 15 when he first saw her). Further, Angel, despite his vampiric age and due to his isolation for so many years, is much very emotionally on par with Buffy in the early years. This was all new to him too. Falling in love, having a strong emotional attachment, making love etc. (Not that Liam had not had sex but he had never fallen in love).

Nothing about it feels creepy to me because it’s a TV fantasy world it’s not real life. Buffy had to be 16 because we needed to get 3 yrs of high school in. But she isn’t some random high school chick she is the freaking Slayer. If Buffy is old enough to go out every night and face literal killers and save the world she is old enough to decide to date an older guy.

It’s a ridiculous argument and I don’t pay much attention to it.
 
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MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
Thank you so much :)
Buffy was way too young. Imaging Angel having a relationship with Dawn!!! Gross, he' such a pedophile 😱

I actually want to pull out my hair whenever I hear this 😡 Unfortunately, I'm not good at clap backs 😳 Any suggestions?

Buffy was originally older (in the movie she's 18) while Dawn was originally younger (10-12) and it showed in how they were written. Buffy was forced to be an adult and really missed her childhood while Dawn acted mostly like a child but wanted to be treated like an adult.

At 15, Buffy was the Slayer. At 15, Dawn still needed a babysitter. At 16, Buffy had a serious boyfriend. At 16, Dawn had her first kiss. At 17, Buffy had a full time job and rented her own apartment because she was kicked out of her home. At 17, Dawn kicked Buffy out of her home.

Teenage Buffy led the Scooby Gang. Teeange Dawn was a Scooby.

Teenage Buffy missed class because she had to save a life, kill a MOTW, or was just exhausted from patrolling all night.
Teenage Dawn missed class because she wanted attention and was acting up.

Teenage Buffy called out rape culture and abusive relationships.
Teenage Dawn tried to get Tara back with Willow after she used magick to hurt her and went to Spike's crypt to fix things between him and Buffy, both times not understanding the complexities.

Teenage Buffy was sexually assaulted multiple times.
Teenage Dawn saw a picture of a naked man and thought, "That's a strange place for a horn."
 
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
Thank you and your comparisons are on point!
How is that a lie? Even your examples in Beneath You proves it's not a lie.
Because it's not a selfless act meant for her. It's self-serving. He wants her back for his own selfish ends. I don't remember Buffy asking Spike to get a soul. Spike actually doesn't care what she wants, the attempted rape kinda proved that.

So it's a lie. It's not for her, it's for him. Kinda obvious.
 
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
Actually VERY obvious lol
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