Episode Discussion Buffy, Spike, Seeing Red and The Me Too Movement

NikonTheVampire

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Black Thorn
Hello Team

It has been a while but I needed your input on this.

With the #MeToo Movement going around, I was wondering how does the Seeing Red episode playout now in the current social culture?

Imagine you are introducing BTVS to a younger generating in this day and age. And they get to that dreadful scene on this episode. How do you explain it now? How do you explain forgiveness? Buffy forgives Spike? Did she just move on from that terrible experience? All of the sudden he comes back and he is changed?

How do Spuffy fans deal with this in the present #MeToo social climate?
 
I can't speak as a Spuffy fan, but I would say I would not introduce this show to anyone who had trauma issues. I did warn one woman with deep trauma issues regarding rape (she couldn't even read about it in a book without sometimes destroying it) and she had me sum it up for her and carefully select the episodes to watch for her in season 6. She was not pleased how the Spuffy arc in season 7 handled it, though as much for pragmatic reasons as personal ones. It turned her off of Buffy (the only season 6 ep she liked was OMWF, and other than that Buffy ended with season 5 for her). Perhaps I should mention that she was in her late 50s at the time.

And hash tag activism is way too decentralized to assume much about anyone who engages in it (and it would not surprise me if there are Spuffy fans that use the Me, Too hashtag, especially if they imitated Buffy's bad choices toward Spike in the real world which tends to turn out a lot worse in real life). Some involved want a reasonable and much needed talk about a problem in society while others are about infantilizing women who conflate flirting with rape or even want to treat all men as guilty and all women as innocent by virtue of gender, and a great many other variations. Though before the MT, I saw one guy online who took anything Anita Sarkeesian said as gospel hate on Sucker Punch for objectifying women and being misogynist, and then without missing a beat praised Heavy Metal for empowered female characters (I'm sure he'll change his mind once Mamma Sarkeesian tells him to, but he had room for that kind of cognitive dissonance at the time, and I expect many Me Too hashtaggers can find room for cognitive dissonance as well).

I don't mean to say that all who do this do so through cognitive dissonance (though I think he does). It's a complex world. I can even think of one ship I love (from a book/movie few have heard of) that I would not want to be allowed by law, and I don't see it as contradictory (and I'd be willing to say why but I've gone on long enough and may not be relevant to what you're looking for).

If someone were the type to infantilize women or otherwise upset that the world isn't their safe space then I wouldn't show it to them, but then I wouldn't likely have much to do with them or they me anyway, so it's a moot point. If I knew someone was like that and they were watching the show, I might give a heads up, or at least say that season 6 and what follows may test their boundaries, but that's about it. For the most part I'd just shrug it off and not care what they think or feel, especially if they were made aware of it but watched it anyway.


And just in case it needs to be said...not all Millennials and Post-Millennials are in need of coddling or easily distressed. They gave us other hashtag movements like GamerGate as well (another heavily decentralized hashtag movement that means radically different things to different people who take part in it--and includes plenty of females, btw). From what I hear most are trying to get by without getting burned by any internet lynch mobs, and those in college just want to get their degree and get out of that madhouse as fast as they can. They have enough problems without inviting more through open disagreement with political fanatics and extremists. And if they can watch shows like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad then they can sure as hell get through Buffy. (It's also worth noting that plenty of older generations can be just as hyper sensitive themselves, even if it's often from a more conservative viewpoint.)


And I personally don't get passionate about ships nor my shows. Though it seems a radical notion these days (but I know I'm not unique), some of us don't need the world to validate our choices of media, nor do we look down on those who choose to watch different shows instead. I can even recognize shows I won't watch as brilliant, just not my cup of tea. Though I did have a hard time not saying anything when someone told me he hated Buffy because (as best I recall) "you can't beat up demons, and I won't watch a show that doesn't understand that." 😀


On a side note, I think you'd have better luck posting (or moving) this to the Spike subforum.
 
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I'm a Spuffy fan and I am a stern supporter of the MeToo movement. A lot of the criticism against the Spuffy story is valid, but I think some of it is overwrought. The message of the Spuffy storyline is not that sexual abuse is a trifle. The attempted rape causes a wound between Buffy and Spike that is not solved by Spike getting his soul back. The AR in Seeing Red is the only depiction of sexual abuse that makes any attempt at portray the terror of such an experience. Compare the The Pack, Consequences, Go Fish, This Year's Girl, etc.

I think the AR was important. It would have been a lot more problematic if Spike had accepted Buffy's rejection and left her alone. The AR made it clear that Spike's previous behaviour were red flags. If the AR hadn't happened, viewers may have been tempted to see the stalking, the stealing, balcony scene, etc as permissible acts.

S7 did a somewhat poor job at dealing with the aftermath of the AR, but not nearly as poor a job as some people claim. Buffy is Buffy. It deals with serious issues in its own kinda way. It rarely treats things with the seriousness they deserve, but that is the price for having a show like that.

I constantly see people who are against Spuffy because they see it as too abusive write nasty stuff about Buffy in the last two season and show unmeasured support for other ships and characters that are equally toxic. I think cognitive dissonance is an unavoidable aspect of being human 😛
 
Fool for Buffy
Fool for Buffy
Great post
S7 Buffy advocates victim-blaming. S7 Buffy (like many victims of violent sexual assault) expresses the opinion that she somehow brought the sexual assault on herself (so does Spike btw, and a lot of Spike fans).
Furthermore the victim is not allowed to confront and condemn her attacker- how dis-empowering.

In Buffy the (attempted) rapist's story of 'earning forgiveness' is seen as more important than the victim's and how they cope/recover (this is stated by the writers). Any victim of assault/rape will learn NOTHING good from watching Buffy S6/7

In short no, anyone who is part of the #MeToo movement cannot and should not ever take any lessons from Spuffy. Spuffy is toxic in regards when it comes to giving any moral insight; it actually dates the show quite badly.
 
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S7 Buffy advocates victim-blaming. S7 Buffy (like many victims of violent sexual assault) expresses the opinion that she somehow brought the sexual assault on herself (so does Spike btw, and a lot of Spike fans).
Furthermore the victim is not allowed to confront and condemn her attacker- how dis-empowering.

In Buffy the (attempted) rapist's story of 'earning forgiveness' is seen as more important than the victim's and how they cope/recover (this is stated by the writers). Any victim of assault/rape will learn NOTHING good from watching Buffy S6/7
Why would Spike need to earn forgiveness if Buffy was to blame for the assault?
 
debbicles
debbicles
Great posts both of them
Why would Spike need to earn forgiveness if Buffy was to blame for the assault?

Because that's Season 7 writing for you, and it gives Spike a lot more screen time. What other reasons could possibly be needed....

Hell, Joss even states that this is one of the goals in the one of the latter episode commentaries. Go check it out.
 
The attempted rape causes a wound between Buffy and Spike that is not solved by Spike getting his soul back.

I think the criticism that is often raised, as you well know, is not that everything is “magically better” but that not enough time and attention is given to the journey to Buffy’s forgiveness of Spike. When in the 4th episode of the season, Buffy is already making excuses for soulless Spike’s actions (“He knows it was wrong that’s why he left”) it is a valid question to ask if the show did enough to show how the perp’s actions affected the victim.

But of course at the end of the day, the soul does pave the way for Buffy and Spike does it not? Buffy tells anyone and everyone she can that she is protecting Spike because he has changed, because he fought to be a better man, in the finale she implicitly calls him a champion by giving him the amulet. The man goes from attempted rapist to champion in the span of a season. Granted the soul canon informs this development so us loyal buffy fans can understand how this is possible because of what we know about the soul (that he is a new man) and we can choose to accept the character progression.

But from an outsider’s perspective, someone not familiar with soul canon or how a soul effects a vampire etc the narrative is: a man tried to rape the female lead of the show (an arguably feminist icon) and the next season he comes back a changed man and she eventually confesses her love for him. Without the necessary context of the show’s mythology, that is a troubling narrative.

And I don’t think that this story line would fly on TV today. The climate of today is much too charged with (understandable) sensitivity to rape culture. Further the current wave of woman coming out and voicing their experience with sexual assault would create a backlash at seeing Buffy’s lack of reaction to SR. The message above would likely garner negative press, social media reaction, op eds, reviews etc.

And many story lines on Buffy would likely be considered problematic today (not just SR).
 
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I wouldn't recommend a show like "Buffy" to anyone without explaining in advance that the show dealt with mature subject matter disguised as fantasy. If they questioned "Seeing Red," or Buffy's forgiveness of Spike later in Season 7, I would suggest that we have reminded them of the equally despicable things that Angelus had done, albeit off screen or in flashback. If they had no problem disassociating monster Angelus from champion Angel, they should have no problem doing the same thing with soulless Spike and ensouled Spike. If they did have a problem with it, then I would take my "Buffy" DVD's back and let them watch my "Highlander" set instead. The worst thing that Duncan Macleod ever did is chop people's heads off for 400 years. If that traumatized them as well, I would give them my grandson's "Shrek" set, and warn them about Donkey and Dragon's interracial love affair in advance.

It's all fantasy. If you can't deal with that, how can you even watch the evening news without freaking out?
 
debbicles
debbicles
Agreed.
I think the criticism that is often raised, as you well know, is not that everything is “magically better” but that not enough time and attention is given to the journey to Buffy’s forgiveness of Spike. When in the 4th episode of the season, Buffy is already making excuses for soulless Spike’s actions (“He knows it was wrong that’s why he left”) it is a valid question to ask if the show did enough to show how the perp’s actions affected the victim.
Do I know that? 😛 I am not sure.

It is a valid question to ask, though I have never seen it expressed as a question. What I am mostly see is a wave of criticisms that are completely unmeasured, often conflict with each other, make wild conspiratorial claims about Joss wanting to punish SMG, express a disconcerting lack of sympathy for Buffy as a character and imply or flatly state that people who enjoy the last two episodes of BtVS have something to explain concerning their attitude to real life sexual abuse.

The Spuffy story is a retelling of the Bangel story, but the Spuffy story shows some willingness to address issues that the Bangel story brush over. Both stories deal with an abuser that is magically made "good" by the introduction of a soul. Spike is neither as evil without a soul nor as good with a soul as Angel was.

S6 is one of my favourite seasons of Buffy, along with 4 and 5. S7 may be my least favourite. I do agree with many of the criticisms made against it. Sadly, the Spuffy story is too loaded to have a reasonable converstation where its merits and short coming can be discussed.
 
If a conversation was needed I'd probably do it after the first time Buffy survived a date rape attempt in Reptile Boy or the time she survived a gang rape attempt in Go Fish. Point out how Buffy lives her life under constant threat of physical, mental and sexual violence and perseveres because she's awesome.

As for forgiveness, moving on etc. I'd explain how the soul is a crucial part in the make up of any entity in the Buffyverse and Buffy accepts this early on and is consistent throughout.
 
Imagine you are introducing BTVS to a younger generating in this day and age. And they get to that dreadful scene on this episode. How do you explain it now? How do you explain forgiveness? Buffy forgives Spike? Did she just move on from that terrible experience? All of the sudden he comes back and he is changed? How do Spuffy fans deal with this in the present #MeToo social climate?

I'd deal with it by introducing them to informed arguments put forward in articles such as Sharon Lamb's Forgiveness, Women, and Responsibility to the Group in The
Journal of Human Rights, 5:45–60, 2006. As Lamb points out (elsewhere) "Forgiveness" is/was advocated as an alternative to the victim/survivor narrative. It's not for everyone who's been subject to a serious sexual assault but it works for some women with extremely positive outcomes (outcomes that "victim/survivor" metaphors don't necessarily have). She identifies its biggest flaws as ignoring the "group" and the sexism and politics underpinning abuse. I'd then show how S7 addresses this from the prologue and opening scene in Lessons and continues to address it through out. Lamb herself is a critic of the therapy and offers alternatives, one of which is to help the subject keep wounds open but "learn to live with the grief and mourning without having these overwhelm them. As she says, "many wounds involve some loss" but it is possible to build "a self apart from that wound". I'd refer them to the last remark made by the First Evil to show how S7, by utilising ideas advocated by third wave/French Feminism makes this end-game (and, as a result, is a far more radical show at the end than it was in the beginning.

And I don’t think that this story line would fly on TV today. The climate of today is much too charged with (understandable) sensitivity to rape culture. Further the current wave of woman coming out and voicing their experience with sexual assault would create a backlash at seeing Buffy’s lack of reaction to SR. The message above would likely garner negative press, social media reaction, op eds, reviews etc.
I don't agree there's a lack of reaction - I think her reaction is to deconstruct Phallogocentrism - but I do agree they'd be unlikely to use the storyline today.
 
debbicles
debbicles
Awesome. We are not worthy.
So that would be 'drugged' then, since there was no sexual component that Buffy was ever aware of. It's easy to 'survive' something when it didn't actually happen.
Nothing happened with Spike or the demon swim team either, hence attempted rape rather than actual rape. Intent was there in all cases though.
 
Nothing happened with Spike or the demon swim team either, hence attempted rape rather than actual rape. Intent was there in all cases though.

It's hardly the same; Buffy wasn't even aware of any 'date rape' with the frat guys- so that's no trauma at all. And she had little trouble fighting off the fish guys until Xander was able to help her out (you can tell she wasn't that worried because of the quips).

The trauma with Spike was on another level; I would've thought that was obvious. Different level of trust, of intimacy, of violence, of danger (given how powerful Spike is), and of intent since Spike came very close; much closer than anyone else.
 
Three incidents when someone attempted to rape Buffy but didn't actually rape Buffy.

How someone can look at those 3 incidents and consider them the same baffles me.
 
It's like 'attempted murder', as in 'nothing happened.
That's why its better to say that in 'Seeing Red' it was 'merely' a violent successful sexual assault, not rape.

Yes, that definitely seems like the best way to describe it then. I'm going to have to think about this some more because wow. I never realized that calling it an "attempted rape" would end up banalizing what happened in Seeing Red.
 
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