Question Cordelia's failing acting career

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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Why do you think Cordelia failed at becoming a successful actor? Lack of motivation? Lack of opportunities? Lack of talent? Or something else?

Let's discuss.
 
Lack of talent, the show was pretty clear that she was not a very good actor or even particularly dedicated to her craft.

She didn’t love acting, she wanted to be admired and successful, and maybe she could have leveraged her beauty for some success but…

… after she got the visions… She had no chance. Even if she wanted to get better and maybe even take classes, how could it possibly work?
 
She wasn't very good. Cordelia was intuitive to a degree and could read a lot of people relatively well but her empathy was too low and narcissism too high to authentically inhabit another person's shoes.

Even in Skip/Jasmine's alterna-fantasy in S3 'Birthday', which seemed to be designed to pander to Cordelia's hubris, she got famous by being some kind of uber-popular talk show host. So, even subconsciously, Cordelia herself knew that acting wasn't her path.
To be fair her talent empathy improved over the years but her...inflated self-regard never really went away, which is what led to her downfall.
 
She never was that good, not even at mere lying, even when motivated by immediate rewards. I'm sure Giles would have something to say about her chances after he endured her in the talent show he had to oversee. This trait of hers continued in Angel.

But that aside, my impression was that her time locked in visions while in a hospital made her more devoted to helping people so that her ambition in that regard took a backseat (and the visions continued to disrupt her, and come to think of it, she'd have endured her visions while acting sooner or later) and finally faded. For better and worse she evolved as a character.
 
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thetopher said:
She wasn't very good. Cordelia was intuitive to a degree and could read a lot of people relatively well but her empathy was too low and narcissism too high to authentically inhabit another person's shoes.

Even in Skip/Jasmine's alterna-fantasy in S3 'Birthday', which seemed to be designed to pander to Cordelia's hubris, she got famous by being some kind of uber-popular talk show host. So, even subconsciously, Cordelia herself knew that acting wasn't her path.
To be fair her talent empathy improved over the years but her...inflated self-regard never really went away, which is what led to her downfall.
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I am pretty sure by the credits Cordy! was a 1970s esque sitcom like the Mary Tyler Moore show, That Girl, or Rhoda.

I think the arrogance is overstated though by people who think Cordy thought she was being promoted to god. She was familiar with the Oracles from season 1, she'd probably heard of Whistler. There were theoretically jobs between Angel's seer and actual Power. Hell, I just checked the transcript and one of her last lines is about if she ever meets them face to face
 
Everything changed once she became involved with Angel and then got the seer powers, but prior to that I would say that she was trying to follow the American ideal of acting by becoming rich, famous and loved without actually having to put the work in. She seemed to expect it to just happen. Lack of talent can be obviated by having enough dedication to put the hours in. If you are not willing to do that, just being a pretty face in Hollywood can end up with you just being used. Which, in fact, happened to Cordelia. I wonder if "eaten by vampire" is a metaphor for how an attractove young woman can be used by those involved in Hollywood. (#MeToo)

Now, if Cordelia had survived and been given time to change, it is possible, though perhaps not likely, that her attitude would have changed and she might have started truly dedicating time to improving her craft, rather than just expecting success to fall into her lap.
 
garfan said:
I am pretty sure by the credits Cordy! was a 1970s esque sitcom like the Mary Tyler Moore show, That Girl, or Rhoda.
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The point is Cordelia was playing a version of herself in her 'best life' vision, not a massively talented actress.

garfan said:
I think the arrogance is overstated though by people who think Cordy thought she was being promoted to god. She was familiar with the Oracles from season 1, she'd probably heard of Whistler. There were theoretically jobs between Angel's seer and actual Power.
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Not being promoted to God, but a minor God, a 'higher power' and observer of things, after...2 years of visions. Suuurre.
She may've heard of Whistler or the Oracles but we know she was aware of Doyle and his years of penance/servitude more. Cordelia should've been way more cynical about what was happening to her as she was about everything else in life.
I'm not saying she was massively arrogant at the end there, but she she had always had a predilection for vanity and the idea of ascension to 'higher things' certainlt plays into her self-perception. Also with the only person keeping her on Earth being Angel was...definitely the direction S3 was going in all along. Critics name her arc St. Cordy for a good reason I feel.
 
Let's separate the actress from the part she was playing. It doesn't matter if she was playing a supernatural being, what matters is the basic requirement of acting: memory work. If you don't like or can't do memory work, don't be an actor.

There are some actors who are limited in the amount of lines you can give them. I keep thinking of George C. Scott and his monologue at the beginning of "Patton" as the gold standard for what a good actor should be able to do. It probably would not have worked at all with an actor who had trouble remembering lines. If you have trouble with memory work, you are always in a panic when you deliver your lines and this panic shows as not being able to imbue the character with the emotion you are trying to portray and the portrayal pulls you out of the character and into the realm of person standing on her marks and reciting her lines.

Everything Charisma did had the feeling that it was practiced and not like it was the natural speech of a character in the show unless it was a short line.
 
Charisma Carpenter ended up doing a playboy spread and some pretty sexually charged movies. I personally thought those were rather sad choices. I thought she did a good enough job on Buffy and that her character was deepened on Angel. Her ending on that show was pretty sad. I don't think she has a lot of range but what she did, she did well.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Didn't she do a 50 Shades knockoff or something?
silvermoon said:
Charisma Carpenter ended up doing a playboy spread and some pretty sexually charged movies. I personally thought those were rather sad choices. I thought she did a good enough job on Buffy and that her character was deepened on Angel. Her ending on that show was pretty sad. I don't think she has a lot of range but what she did, she did well.
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I remember the Playboy spread. She said she did it because she didn’t really feel sexy, or wanted to be reminded that she still was sexy, after becoming a mom. Which makes a lot of sense. (Also, as far as I remember she was so beautiful in that spread)

Either which way to me neither of those are sad choices. Charisma looks amazing and most Buffyverse actors went on to make some pretty terrible movies. If hers were sexier than the others then I guess I can only say they have something going for them unlike many others.
 
Taake said:
I remember the Playboy spread. She said she did it because she didn’t really feel sexy, or wanted to be reminded that she still was sexy, after becoming a mom. Which makes a lot of sense. (Also, as far as I remember she was so beautiful in that spread)

Either which way to me neither of those are sad choices. Charisma looks amazing and most Buffyverse actors went on to make some pretty terrible movies. If hers were sexier than the others then I guess I can only say they have something going for them unlike many others.
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I guess if you want to live your life for the male gaze more power to you. Some of us aren't comfortable baring all. I guess if you see beauty and sexuality as being extremely important. Not everyone does. She can do what she likes. I personally find it not liberating or empowering at all to take off all your clothes. All women are beautiful in my book.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Clothing is my armour against the world, though I can appreciate that some women are more willing to strip off for a variety of reasons, from the mercenary to a protest against the double standards for men and women. As you say, to each their own.
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
I started making a comment about it being more down to Joss when I realised I was thinking of the wrong "C"!
thetopher said:
The point is Cordelia was playing a version of herself in her 'best life' vision, not a massively talented actress.



Not being promoted to God, but a minor God, a 'higher power' and observer of things, after...2 years of visions. Suuurre.
She may've heard of Whistler or the Oracles but we know she was aware of Doyle and his years of penance/servitude more. Cordelia should've been way more cynical about what was happening to her as she was about everything else in life.
I'm not saying she was massively arrogant at the end there, but she she had always had a predilection for vanity and the idea of ascension to 'higher things' certainlt plays into her self-perception. Also with the only person keeping her on Earth being Angel was...definitely the direction S3 was going in all along. Critics name her arc St. Cordy for a good reason I feel.
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I actually enjoyed the St Cordy character but rumors have it Joss considered writing her out in season 2 with Pylea so doing the same in season 3 isn't impossible. Further rumors suggest that if Charisma wasn't pregnant then Cordelia's ascention it wouldn't have been a setup, though it would have been a mistake.

I feel like Doyle's backstory was a little contradictory. He was only about 25 years old and only manifested his demon side at 21. That's only about 4 years for the visions and all. That's only double the time Cordy had them and Cordy never let a bunch of folk die because she wanted nothing to do with them
 
garfan said:
I actually enjoyed the St Cordy character but rumors have it Joss considered writing her out in season 2 with Pylea so doing the same in season 3 isn't impossible. Further rumors suggest that if Charisma wasn't pregnant then Cordelia's ascention it wouldn't have been a setup, though it would have been a mistake.
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The St. Cordy arc pushed Cordelia's character by erasing all her flaws (bar one) and making her the goodest and bestest and a worthy champion just like Angel. Snore. You do that the only option is to pretty much write the character out because you've written them into a corner and can't develop them any further.

'Birthday' was the final straw, making Cordelia intrinsically selfless from AtS Episode 1 onward. I guess myself and the writers didn't watch the same show because Cordelia wasn't like that at all to start with, she developed and became that over the course of two seasons.
And so as a result she gets brand new super-duper cleansing empathy demon powers that have seemingly no drawbacks... so no interesting storylines left; just ascending in S3 to come back as herself in S5. Great, well done S3!


garfan said:
I feel like Doyle's backstory was a little contradictory.
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But we're discussing what Cordelia would know, not the effectiveness of a particular character. Cordelia would know much more about Doyle's visions than Whistler (doubtful) or vague tales of the Oracles. From the start she resented the burden the PtB put on her whilst also understanding the job/help she could do with the visions, which created an internal conflict in character. Then S3 happened and 'That Vision Thing' turns Cordelia into a martyr, suffering in silence even when it costs her her body.
Nope, that's not her and it never was.
 
NotASlayer Clothing is my armour against the world, though I can appreciate that some women are more willing to strip off for a variety of reasons, from the mercenary to a protest against the double standards for men and women. As you say, to each their own.

there are certainly double standards. just not sure how me being naked helps to protest that when women are always going to be sexualised in ways men just arent. if some women feel that is helpful, that's their choice, yep. i doubt many people viewing a naked woman are going to see it as anything but sexually charged due to societal conditioning, quite sadly. we have michaelangelo's david, and people have discussed the beauty of the male form for years in regards to it. yet women artistically are often portrayed as dead, naked, silent, mutilated, etc. im no scholar, but i think that's completely screwed up.
 
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