Does anyone likes Holtz?

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
Hi all!

So I was kind of surprised when I realized no one seemed to enjoyed Holtz as a villain. I enjoy him because I like the grey area he brings to the whole Big bad thing and belive he did a lot if not the most damage to Angel in all the seasons. So my questions are:

Do you like Holtz as a villain? If you do why?
Do you hate Holtz as a villain? If you do why?

Pretty simple 🙂
 
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I like Holtz because he had clear motivations for what he did, and his character seemed consistent. Only a man of great will and cunning would've survived Angelus and Darla as long as he did, and no demon is going to turn such a man into a mindless lackey (at least not if he wants to keep Holtz a finely tuned weapon). He was both brilliant and understandable (and also charismatic no matter what time period he's in), and also well acted (his line of "I swore I'd show no mercy, and I won't" always gives me chills). As an added bonus, he doesn't turn into a rage-filled moron at the end like so many villains in so many shows do, he stays his willful, devious self up to the very end (and the only problem I have with his suicide is that there'd be blood everywhere, unlike a vampire attack, but the demonic energies of Qortoth coursing in him and twisting his mind, combined with his own phenomenal willpower and incredible hatred already present, does make me think he could really do it).


That said, let's take a moment to reflect on what an utter moron Sahjan is. A time traveler who can transport people through time, at least the future, and he could've made people rich who terminated Angel's existence before he was even born or before he was turned, and probably could've even tipped off Holtz while he was hunting him in the past. He could also help people win bets and stocks in the more modern world on the condition they hire the Order of Taraka or whatever to take out Angel before Connor is born. Heck, why not send Angel to Qortoth himself if he thought it was a good enough end for Connor? I swear the Senior Partners had to cast a feeblemind spell on him to neuter him as a threat for him not to do any of these things. Him, I don't care for at all. (Though his yelling at Lilah in front of Angel was good for a laugh to move the plot forward, if another example of how stupid he is.)
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
I agree about Holtz totally!
For me, my dislike of the way Wes handled the whole prophecy situation clouds my judgment of Holtz as a character. I guess I enjoyed his character some, and I liked that they played with the grey area, but Wes and Justin's actions around his story line were so stupid it sorta left me with a less than great feeling about Holtz.
 
I was never really sold on the character. Holtz began leaking any moral right to vengeance the moment he learned that Angel was not the soulless Demon Angelus. I was never really sold that Gunn, let along Angel, would have any problem with dealing with the guy on a physical level. At the end, he was a foolish old man who believed in a useless lie and was only a threat because Angel refused to break his legs. On the other hand, "All through the night" is a really catchy tune.
 
K
katmobile
Look fandom debates the question of how much and if the sins of the souless should be held against the souled and so do characters in verse. Also like Angel in mid season two Holst has ceased to give a **** his life was destroyed all he's got is payb
Yes absolutely he was interesting character with a motive but I have a question about him. Did he was involved in the "Angel killed Holtz" story made up by Justine to Connor in the Tomorrow episode ? Did he knew that Justine will (after his death) accuse Angel to Connor ?
 
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
Yes - that's why he has her stab him twice in the neck with an ice pick
Fans seem more sympathetic to Wood than Holtz even though his loss was much smaller. His mom died in combat in a clean kill when he was barely old enough to have any memories of her by an opponent who wanted bragging rights for killing Slayers, the Boogeyman of the underworld. Holtz's family were not tied to the paranormal world and were completely defenseless. His wife wasn't just killed, she was raped. His child was fed on and turned into a soulless demon and left there for him to have to kill as she begged him not to.

Holtz dedicated his life to fighting evil and his family were punished for it. Nikki dedicated her life to fighting evil and her son became an orphan because of it.

People felt bad for Cordelia when she was in the Wishverse and saw Xander & Willow were still together even though she didn't seem to care that her wish meant they both were turned into soulless demons and probably ate their own families.

People cheered for Willow when she tortured & murdered a souled human for unknowingly shooting Tara when he tried to bag a Slayer. She was ready to murder her own people for trying to stop her.

People felt bad for Anya when she chose to become a vengeance demon again simply because Xander didn't marry her out of fear he'd grow up to be his abusive father and ruin her life.
 
gwenogjones
gwenogjones
Do people really cheer Willow on? Glad Warren's dead - yes. Glad Willow killed him? I've not seen that.
Myheadsgonenumb Yes - that's why he has her stab him twice in the neck with an ice pick
Thank you for your answer, so I guess he's really good to fool Angel and me lol he looked really serious when he talked to Angel in his room about letting Connor to his real father.
 
kagxut.jpg

Now you have.
@Myheadsgonenumb
 
Just for the sake of clarity in case it needs to be said, I like Holtz as a villain in a story, not as in I'd high five him, cheer him on, and buy him a drink. 😉
 
I like Holtz a lot actually and I think his storyline was fantastic and one of the most well done. He’s a chilling example of just how evil Angelus and Darla were, which the audience tends to forget. We are in Angels point of view so much, even in the flashback, that it’s easy to ignore that Angel is seeking redemption for a reason. Holtz was a mortal man who chose to hunt vampires with no supernatural strength granted to him, and by all accounts was a loving husband and father . In any other story he’s the protagonist and a heroic figure. He’s hunting a pair of Vicious killers across continents to do humanity a favor, and they rape his wife, butcher his infant son, and turn his baby girl into a vampire for him to kill himself. Seriously it’s horrific. He starts off with all the sympathy and a quest for revenge that seems well deserved, and we watch as it consumes him utterly and destroys another innocent life ( Connor). It’s a story that’s almost Shakespearean 😀 Holtz is such a great villain because he completely succeeds in destroying Angel in way that no one else ever could , and yet manages to also garner sympathy and be three dimensional. He also destroys himself in the process .
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
I forgot about the infant son.
Myheadsgonenumb Yes - that's why he has her stab him twice in the neck with an ice pick
Thank you for your answer, so I guess he's really good to fool Angel and me lol he looked really serious when he talked to Angel in his room about letting Connor to his real father.

I only know that happens because 'Tomorrow' is the episode I'm currently writing for my massive season 3 fanfic rewrite. I'm not generally a Justine/ Holtz expert 🙂
 
GraceK
GraceK
I wish someone had taken an icepick to the back of Justine’s head.
It’s a story that’s almost Shakespearean 😀
Please, Joss runs circle around ol' Billy S.

But yes, Holtz is a typical tragic hero. He starts out with good intention, but he looses the plot. I would say, though, that Holtz goes to far even before Angel and Darla kill his family. He already enjoys his job too much - like when they capture Angel in Rome.
 
GraceK I wish someone had taken an icepick to the back of Justine’s head.

I actually have a lot of empathy for Justine. But then I don't like Wesley - so I don't hold her slitting his throat against her. And Holtz was her cult leader - he recruited her when she was vulnerable and then brainwashed her, of course she would do anything he asked. I am massively pleased that Justine is not Kate - as was originally planned, though. I think the actor who plays Justine is great - I really can't imagine Kate bringing any of that depth to the role of Holtz groupie. Thank God for Law and Order.
 
He already enjoys his job too much - like when they capture Angel in Rome.
That was after they killed his family. The priest says to him “ after what this monster did to your family?”

Then when Darla rescues Angelus, she laughs about how’s it more fun to ruin his life rather than killing him.
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
Haha! Ups! Shame on me! I'm currently watching S3.
GraceK I wish someone had taken an icepick to the back of Justine’s head.

I actually have a lot of empathy for Justine. But then I don't like Wesley - so I don't hold her slitting his throat against her. And Holtz was her cult leader - he recruited her when she was vulnerable and then brainwashed her, of course she would do anything he asked. I am massively pleased that Justine is not Kate - as was originally planned, though. I think the actor who plays Justine is great - I really can't imagine Kate bringing any of that depth to the role of Holtz groupie. Thank God for Law and Order.

I disagree with every single written line of this paragraph so intensely that I can’t even respond properly. So I’ll just leave it at agree to disagree 😉
 
Wow - I can't believe anybody could possibly feel that strongly about a minor character like Justine... or would be happy to see more Kate!
 
I can't believe anyone would think it was okay to slit someone's throat to steal a baby, just because they did not like the guy she took the baby from.

BtW, is it possible to slit someone's throat in a way that makes them almost immediately pass out but allows them to survive for hours? I would think that either it is shallow and you're basically fine or they cut an artery and you're dead.
 
K
katmobile
If you hang out on You Tube you come to understand fanatics and their disaplines. Justine like Holst is a fanatic who is broken and consumed by vengeance, she may also have had issues before her twin was killed, it's believable she acts like that.
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