Giles killing Ben

[NotASlayer]

Buffy killed directly (and encouraged Giles to run over) the knights of Byzanthium.

Well, she encouraged Giles to aim at the horsies. not the knights... 😀

Okay, being on a horse hit by an RV doing 25mph is not exactly going to tickle. 😀

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Well, she encouraged Giles to aim at the horsies. not the knights... 😀

Okay, being on a horse hit by an RV doing 25mph is not exactly going to tickle. 😀

So she encouraged him to kill horse and rider. Honestly, horse has a better chance of survival. 1000lb horse compared to a 180lb man vs an RV. Plus she also fought them hand to hand (sword to sword) throwing them off the moving vehicle.

@DeepBlueJoy The problem with your arguement is if Buffy thought killing Ben was appropriate she would

She should have killed him. In the heat of the moment, she had other things to worry about. It was bad writing, but yes, she did not get it done - but as i said with regards to the hordes of knights she fought off - she did not hesitate to kill them or try to. I dont think it was lack of the heart to do it. Personally, i suspect the TV execs did not want to glorify a teen girl killing in cold blood.

I think the Giles speech was hanging a lampshade on a stupid writing choice.but there is zero evidence Buffy would hesitate to kill a human threat elsewhere in the series.

 

[garfan]

She should have killed him. In the heat of the moment, she had other things to worry about. It was bad writing, but yes, she did not get it done - but as i said with regards to the hordes of knights she fought off - she did not hesitate to kill them or try to. I dont think it was lack of the heart to do it. Personally, i suspect the TV execs did not want to glorify a teen girl killing in cold blood.

I think the Giles speech was hanging a lampshade on a stupid writing choice.but there is zero evidence Buffy would hesitate to kill a human threat elsewhere in the series.

The knights were actively doing something, Ben was not. That's the difference. That the knights were threats in the exact moment, Ben was a threat for the future. And they easily could have staged the scene so Buffy had to kill him. But frankly it just reads as a normal hero kills tons of mooks without thought, tells the main villain they won't kill them because they're not a murderer scene

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

The knights were actively doing something, Ben was not. That's the difference. That the knights were threats in the exact moment, Ben was a threat for the future. And they easily could have staged the scene so Buffy had to kill him. But frankly it just reads as a normal hero kills tons of mooks without thought, tells the main villain they won't kill them because they're not a murderer scene

Had her character been male, she would have been rightfully considered a weak coward who shirked her responsibility, not a hero.

Yes, you are 100% right. She did not kill him. I think it was a dumb, sexist & financial decision by execs or writers.

You believe what you believe. That her "not being able to kill humans" makes her heroic. Since by that time she has killed several humans and led dozens of kids into a deadly battle with the mayor, i think her view is adult. You fight evil; people die. It isn't fun or desirable but sometimes it is necessary.

We may not think of Angel as human but she saw him as the man she loved. She ended his life because it was needed to stop the threat.

What they had her NOT do with Ben was therefore illogical.

I don't think she killed Angel because he was a demon. She killed him because Acathla was a threat and his death ended the threat.

IMO, the writers (or execs) missed a chance to have her make the hard and *right* choice - to make sure the threat was ended. To show her strength.

I believe what i believe. Please stop trying to show me i am wrong. I am expressing my SETTLED opinion about a 30 year old show. You cannot school me or "prove me wrong". I cannot school you or "fix" your opinion. *It is not my job to agree with you.*

I even repeatedly concede your facts. Always will. I may never agree with your opinions, however.

You are not winning the internet. You cant. No one can. I cannot either - even if i am "correct". I will not change your mind. I accept that. I accept the facts.

I have also seen every episode of the series many times and i have my own understanding of the series. I have my opinions. They do evolve. But they cannot be beaten out of me because you don't like them.

We will not agree on this. I will not change my mind. I cannot change yours.

 

[garfan]

Had her character been male, she would have been rightfully considered a weak coward who shirked her responsibility, not a hero.

Yes, you are 100% right. She did not kill him. I think it was a dumb, sexist & financial decision by execs or writers.

You believe what you believe. That her "not being able to kill humans" makes her heroic. Since by that time she has killed several humans and led dozens of kids into a deadly battle with the mayor, i think her view is adult. You fight evil; people die. It isn't fun or desirable but sometimes it is necessary.

We may not think of Angel as human but she saw him as the man she loved. She ended his life because it was needed to stop the threat.

What they had her NOT do with Ben was therefore illogical.

I don't think she killed Angel because he was a demon. She killed him because Acathla was a threat and his death ended the threat.

IMO, the writers (or execs) missed a chance to have her make the hard and *right* choice - to make sure the threat was ended. To show her strength.

I believe what i believe. Please stop trying to show me i am wrong. I am expressing my SETTLED opinion about a 30 year old show. You cannot school me or "prove me wrong". I cannot school you or "fix" your opinion. *It is not my job to agree with you.*

I even repeatedly concede your facts. Always will. I may never agree with your opinions, however.

You are not winning the internet. You cant. No one can. I cannot either - even if i am "correct". I will not change your mind. I accept that. I accept the facts.

I have also seen every episode of the series many times and i have my own understanding of the series. I have my opinions. They do evolve. But they cannot be beaten out of me because you don't like them.

We will not agree on this. I will not change my mind. I cannot change yours.

Well, you need to understand sometimes I keep responding because people keep misunderstanding my points or my reasoning.

I actually think she should have killed Ben, I'm just trying to explain why she didn't. With Angel there was an actively opening portal directly connected to his actions, unlike with Ben, that could be closed by his "death," so also nothing to do with him being a demon. I don't know where I said anything that would make you need to clarify that.

I actually am strongly against her stance against killing humans and I feel like I've said enough over the years to make that clear. I am in favor of Warren's death, I think Faith killing Finch was an accident everyone overreacted to, and I don't respect her reactions to Ted or Katrina

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Ben is Dawn. Any logic that Buffy saves Dawn requires her to save Ben. Any logic requiring Giles to kill Ben also applies to Dawn. That's the tragedy. He took an oath to protect this world, even if it requires the shedding of innocent blood, including his own, if need be.

 

[garfan]

Ben is Dawn. Any logic that Buffy saves Dawn requires her to save Ben. Any logic requiring Giles to kill Ben also applies to Dawn. That's the tragedy. He took an oath to protect this world, even if it requires the shedding of innocent blood, including his own, if need be.

even though when it came down to it Dawn was prepared to sacrifice herself to save everyone, while Ben repeatedly sacrificed or endangered others to save his own skin?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

even though when it came down to it Dawn was prepared to sacrifice herself to save everyone, while Ben repeatedly sacrificed or endangered others to save his own skin?

Irrelevant. Any reason to sanction either Dawn or Ben is based on the danger their alter egos pose. It's purely the circumstances of their birth, not what they have done with the gift of life. Giles wasn't casting judgement on Ben's character, just that he was too dangerous to leave alive.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Buffy. Killed. Humans. She would have been fine with it. If she had stopped to think, instead of running off to continue battling and frantic to try to save Dawn, she might have killed Ben for the same reasons as Giles.

I think she should have. He was a supernatural threat.

If she could kill Angel with a soul, she could kill Ben. Giles was wrong. It was either TV execs not wanting their pretty blonde 'girl' hero to kill in cold blood or simply bad writing.

The writers flip-flopped on Buffy's stance - she's shown leaving people to die, threatened her own loved ones if they tried to sacrifice Dawn, attempted to kill Faith, killed humans herself (the Knights in s5), but tells Willow ending the lives of Warren/Jonathan/Tucker's brother "isn't the way".

We get Giles saying, "she's a hero and not like us" when we've seen Buffy ending lives, so yes, she IS like them.

I guess what the writers were implying is she wouldn't kill an 'innocent'? The writing wasn't consistent.

 

[Btvs fan]

The writers flip-flopped on Buffy's stance - she's shown leaving people to die, threatened her own loved ones if they tried to sacrifice Dawn, attempted to kill Faith, killed humans herself (the Knights in s5), but tells Willow ending the lives of Warren/Jonathan/Tucker's brother "isn't the way".

We get Giles saying, "she's a hero and not like us" when we've seen Buffy ending lives, so yes, she IS like them.

I guess what the writers were implying is she wouldn't kill an 'innocent'? The writing wasn't consistent.

Completely agree. Joss even said of the Faith stabbing that he didn't have her die because he didn't want Buffy to be a murderer (attempted murder is ok I guess)

But in regards to this situation with Ben, its incredibly selfish and short sighted on her part and basically a cop out by Joss essentially having Giles do what Buffy should've done.

Leaving Ben alive means that Glory will come back for revenge (Giles even says Buffy knows this) and there is nothing to stop her trying this again with Dawn.
Hell there is nothing to stop her coming back in a few minutes, she simply brain sucks some guy and she's back to normal. When Buffy jumps though, she doesn't forget all this that as far as she knows Dawn might face, she's simply read the script and knows Giles killed Ben

 

[hoponlilmama]

Completely agree. Joss even said of the Faith stabbing that he didn't have her die because he didn't want Buffy to be a murderer (attempted murder is ok I guess)

But in regards to this situation with Ben, its incredibly selfish and short sighted on her part and basically a cop out by Joss essentially having Giles do what Buffy should've done.

Leaving Ben alive means that Glory will come back for revenge (Giles even says Buffy knows this) and there is nothing to stop her trying this again with Dawn.
Hell there is nothing to stop her coming back in a few minutes, she simply brain sucks some guy and she's back to normal. When Buffy jumps though, she doesn't forget all this that as far as she knows Dawn might face, she's simply read the script and knows Giles killed Ben

Yes, exactly. Trying to show Buffy was merciful was a bit silly, given the examples of her being anything but that over the series, and especially in s5.

I mean in regards to Faith, she fell onto the back of the truck. For all she knew, Faith could've died.

As for Ben/Glory - you can't negotiate with a Hell God. Leaving him there was a huge risk.

 

[Btvs fan]

Yes, exactly. Trying to show Buffy was merciful was a bit silly, given the examples of her being anything but that over the series, and especially in s5.

I mean in regards to Faith, she fell onto the back of the truck. For all she knew, Faith could've died.

As for Ben/Glory - you can't negotiate with a Hell God. Leaving him there was a huge risk.

She'd already gone there to kill her
"If Angel drains Faiths blood it will kill her"
"Not if she's already dead"

The Ben thing is basically Joss pressing the reset button. He likes to a raise a scenario but never follow through on the consequences of said scenario.

Hell he spent the first half of the Gift setting up a potential Buffy v Scooby conflict over Dawn which he never followed through on. Instead we just get Giles talking about what a hero Buffy is to Ben before he murders him. It left me dissatisfied to say the least.

Not that Ben's clean on the subject either. The writers completely forgot he summoned the Queller Demon to murder mentally ill people.

On the Lies My Parents Told Me DVD Commentary David Fury talks about that he had Giles mention to Buffy he killed Ben but by that point no one cared.