How do you reconcile perceived OOC character behaviour?

[RomanticSoul]

@RomanticSoul That's all well and good but how are any of these elements not present in the previous seasons ?

Again this habit of ignoring what I wrote. Oh well moving on...

There were always plot holes and incoherences. Also, she couldn't kill Angel even though, unlike Dawn, he was evil and directly responsible for many people's death. She doesn't kill him in Innocence, even though he almost succeeded in letting the Judge kills every human being on earth, and there are literally 8 episodes during which she does not go after him. It's a necessary evil, writing wise, in order to build up momentum and tell a compelling story.

It's not even in the same ballpark. Buffy knows that not killing him in Innocence was wrong. She knows her weakness is getting people killed (unlike The Gift) and it's the plot for several of the episodes after. Also you seem to ignore the roles other people played. At the beginning of 'Passion' Buffy wanted to go out and kill Angelus for good but Giles told her not to and Xander backed him up. And you also seem to forget that he didn't put the Judge together, that was ALL SPIKE. Angelus, like a true evil vampire, only took advantage of the situation once he arrives on the scene.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I know what the literary device is, i just meant where are you getting the idea that the show is based on Giles' diaries from? Is that just your headcanon?

Okay, so you are asking if one of the creators ever said, Buffy is based on Giles diaries? Then no, not that I am aware of. It's just speculation on my part.

 

[The Ferg]

Man, I didn't think this thread would be interesting, but holy s*** we got some strong opinions up in here.

I'm still a little rusty on B/AS9-11, but I just got to the to the "twist" in S8, and I have some thoughts.

Excluding Twangel, I don't view anything that the characters have done as OOC. Maybe if someone pointed out a specific example, I could explain why I feel that way, but honestly, I think there's always an easily-understandable explanation for pretty much everything any of the characters do. I haven't read through the whole thread, but I saw someone mention that they felt that Buffy was belittling (might be the wrong word) herself around Riley, but I just didn't see it that way. Maybe I saw her as slightly more vulnerable, but that's because her relationship history is tragic, at best. Similarly, I would argue that Buffy acting OOC with Spike is the entire point of S6. She's acting differently because she feels different. She went through a hell of a lot of life-altering stuff, and came out the other end a little... changed. I really don't see anything particularly wrong with what the writers chose to do with her.

Twangel on the other hand... Let's just say stretches the mind a little. I find it extremely hard to rationalize Angel's dramatic flip from choosing to fight, no matter the odds or consequences, to saying "well this seems insurmountable... f*** it, at least I'll get to be with Buffy if I play along." Pretty much the only way I can make it work in my head is if there's like two years inbetween AtF and BS8, and it wasn't really Angel making these decisions. It was a mixture of him and Twilight's influence that made him do the things he did. Even then, the thought that he would abandon Connor is just, to put it bluntly, completely f***ing asinine.

If Ats is included, then basically 80% of Spike in S5. The watsonian for this would be : Angel brings out the worst in him, he's feeling out of place and vulnerable. But all I can think of is : they wanted Spike because he's charismatic and funny, but don't want to spend too much time properly developping his character, so they just have him regress to S4 wacky neighbor Spike, but much less enjoyable. And I am so with you on TGIQ *shudders*.

"Regress to wacky neighbor Spike." Wow, I did NOT get that feeling one bit. What exactly could they have done to "properly develop his character"?

Since a lot of things in the comics are written by people who work from an outline of the characters given by Joss, or who only watched one show but not the other. Or only watched them once. I don't see why anyone would take the comics seriously. This would be like someone asking me to write a comic for a show I have never watched (like say Vampire Diaries) just based on the most basic knowledge given to me and then asking fans to accept whatever I write as canon. That's just nonsense.

This is an excessively silly assumption.

 

[The Ferg]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[thetopher]

Regarding the OP I'd say that- in either show show- I can reconcile- or at least can attempt to reconcile- any and all character behavior. I try to meet the writers half-way as nine times out of ten they really are trying to tell a great story with compelling characters driving that story forward.
And since the characters are basically the reason I'm here (there are much tighter plots and more competent world-building out there in TV-land) then I feel that's not an unreasonable amount of effort to put in to enjoy spending time with a large number of characters that I love.

The writers are- for the most part- skillfully illustrating why these characters act the way they act without coming out and stating it (show don't tell) and I appreciate that.
And its fun! Seriously I enjoy trying to figure out why this person would do that even when its not immediately obvious. It's not the same as agreeing with them or approving of their actions, or indeed agreeing with the show's reasoning for them doing what they're doing but understanding leads to empathy or something. Whatever, its how I roll.

I have- and often do- complain about why a character 'wouldn't do that'; Angel in S3, Cordelia in most of S3/4, Buffy in S7, Giles leaving and coming back as pod-Watcher Giles in S7, Xander summoning Sweet, Willow regressing to wallflower for the entirety of S7 (apart from in AtS S4 'Orpheus' where she's allowed to be Willow), etc. but that's just shooting the breeze on the boards really.

I can state- mostly truthfully- that I accept that Buffy in S7 can been seen 'in-character'; its just that the events of that season and how the plot unfolds brings out most of her worst traits (isolationism, superiority, mixing her personal life with her professional with a side-order of relationship-self-blame and guilt...).
Same with Angel acting a bit goofy around Buffy in EoD/Chosen (if glowey-Buffy smiled at me like that I might get a bit light-headed too. So pretty.)

Basically what I'm saying is that- because I've enjoyed all these characters from their initial appearances onward- then it isn't exactly a hardship to puzzle out why they do what they are doing, as long as I think that the writers are putting character before story, which they usually are.


...Where all my goodwill stops is at the comics (excluding Angel AtF because it seems-to me- to be a natural continuation from the Season 5 ending) because all characters depicted- with the telling exceptions of Xander and Faith- do not ring true at all.
Comics-Buffy and Comics- Angel are just....the worst versions of themselves depicted by somebody who has clearly forgotten why they were appealing in the first place. Buffy becomes ridiculously self-involved by the end of S8 and only gets worse after, Angel turns into a super-villain. The rest of the characters kinda just...exist. I don't understand why Willow or Dawn or Spike are even there for the most part; they just take up space.
With the comics I finally feel...well, to quote AoU's 'The Vision' 'A thing isn't beautiful because it lasts.' It's gotta end sometime, people.

 

[RomanticSoul]

This is an excessively silly assumption.

So Joss himself (when explaining the situation with the moron who wrote the Twilight fanfiction) and the writers who have admitted to only working with an outline of the shows/characters...they are liars then?

I don't have to make assumptions about things that were plainly said by the writers themselves. So how about you stuff the insults and do some research yourself and see how 'not silly' it is. I don't read or care about the comics and even I know these simple 'facts'.

 

[The Ferg]

So Joss himself (when explaining the situation with the moron who wrote the Twilight fanfiction) and the writers who have admitted to only working with an outline of the shows/characters...they are liars then?

I don't have to make assumptions about things that were plainly said by the writers themselves. So how about you stuff the insults and do some research yourself and see how 'not silly' it is. I don't read or care about the comics and even I know these simple 'facts'.

So you make a silly claim, I call you out for being silly, and you proceed to tell me to do some research?

Which writers said this exactly? Was it Brian Lynch? Christos Gage? Andrew Chambliss? I can buy that some of the writers only had an outline, but I just don't see Joss hiring someone for the main book that doesn't understand Buffy backward and forward. Obviously, I could be wrong, but you've got to elaborate when you say things like that, especially when you make a whole post responding to me, just to say, "I know the facts, you don't." I'm fully willing to apologize for my rude response, but right now, I don't see any need to.

Because I have some time on my hands, here's me, "doing some research." I'm not going to try to defend AS10-11, so I didn't even attempt to look up Victor Gischler or Corinna Bechko.

Christos Gage: "And I’d never seen an Angel or Buffy show. So I watched a few and loved them, and took the job and then binge-watched twelve seasons of awesome TV. I guess people liked what Rebekah and I did with Angel & Faith because we were then offered Buffy for Season 10. "
-So you were right about one aspect, maybe.
Andrew Chambliss: " I got an email from Joss, and he asked me if I wanted to be on [“Buffy”], and how can you say no to that? “Buffy” is such a huge part of what made me want to become a writer, especially in television. It’s just sort of surreal that I’m going to get an opportunity to participate in that world. "
-Kind of makes me think he's a big fan of the show.
Brian K. Vaughan: "“Plus, when Joss says jump, I say off which bridge? I just love his writing and his stories are really important to me,” Vaughan continued. “With ‘Y: The Last Man’ wrapping in a few months, I’ve made the decision to concentrate pretty much only on new creator-owned books from here on out, but if I’m going to deny myself the supreme pleasure of working on other people’s characters for the rest of my comics career, writing Buffy & Co. seemed like the perfect way to go out with a bang.” "
-Also sounds like a huge fan.
Brad Meltzer: "I always felt there was gold in every season"
Brian Lynch: "Lynch is a longtime Whedon fan and jumped on the Buffy-verse bandwagon in the middle of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer’s” first season. "

 

[EarthLogic]

Which writers said this exactly? Was it Brian Lynch? Christos Gage? Andrew Chambliss? I can buy that some of the writers only had an outline, but I just don't see Joss hiring someone for the main book that doesn't understand Buffy backward and forward.

I think Brad Meltzer - who wrote the Twilight stuff - had only seen Angel on BtVS and not on his own show (!). And I recall reading that Bechko might have only recently come to Buffy when she got the comic book gig or something. I'd have to fact-check but there are more informed comic-readers here who might know better.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the rest of that post - I see you've already investigated. But I believe the Meltzer and Bechko stuff is accurate.

Also being a fan of the show as a whole doesn't guarantee that a writer is going to have a good understanding of some characters.

 

[Taake]

Guys, if you can’t be civil to each other you will be removed from this thread! There has already been warnings in this thread, now keep it about the topic and not about the poster!

 

[RomanticSoul]

So you make a silly claim, I call you out for being silly, and you proceed to tell me to do some research?

Because I have some time on my hands, here's me, "doing some research." I'm not going to try to defend AS10-11, so I didn't even attempt to look up Victor Gischler or Corinna Bechko.

So you call me silly again and then admit to not even doing your full research to validate your opinion of my silliness? Hilarious, thanks for a good laugh.

And as @EarthLogic mentioned, Meltzer didn't watch AtS and based Angel on BtVS Angel. And even there he clearly didn't pay attention which is why we ended up with the nonsense OOC and 'Buff'. And other writers have admitted to working from an outline only (like Bechko). But hey whatever, don't believe those writers then and think them liars.

 

[The Ferg]

Okay, I had a few paragraphs typed up, but clearly you're still refusing to give any evidence for your claims.

I think I'll stop derailing the thread now. Sorry, everyone else.

 

[November]

My question is why does a different opinion bother so many people? Again for emotional people it works

I completely agree with the emotional people bit - it never crossed my mind before. Good point! I love s5/the gift but am not upset by your posts on it, its refreshing! Sorry i miss quoted and hit reply way too early so I havent worded this as i intended, but good thread idea, tons of interesting points of view. 😀

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Christos Gage: "And I’d never seen an Angel or Buffy show. So I watched a few and loved them, and took the job and then binge-watched twelve seasons of awesome TV. I guess people liked what Rebekah and I did with Angel & Faith because we were then offered Buffy for Season 10. "

I hadn’t realized this. He did a great job with s9 of A&F despite not being as intimately familiar with the property. Can’t say I feel the same way for Buffy s10.

 

[Grace]

And other writers have admitted to working from an outline only (like Bechko).

Where has Bechko admitted this? The quote I have seen from her is:

"Corinna Bechko: Thank you! I was contacted last year by Freddye at Dark Horse, who edits the series. I have done a bit of work for Dark Horse in the past (I co-wrote a couple of arcs of Star Wars: Legacy with Gabriel Hardman and wrote a Lara Croft miniseries, as well as a few other things) but this is my first foray into the Buffyverse. The early process consisted mostly of reading and rereading every single comic that had come before this season and rewatching the shows. There were also marching orders about what direction the story should take and some ideas from Joss Whedon and Dark Horse, but those were quite general. We then had some back-and-forth until a final story outline was settled on by all of us."

 

[Icarium]

So Joss himself (when explaining the situation with the moron who wrote the Twilight fanfiction)

I would like to ask you to stop sullying the good name of fanfiction by comparing it with the Twilight, for a lack of a better word, storyline. 🙂

As for the topic question - I simply pretend that Restless was the last episode. I snark at the latter season a lot, sure, but if I honestly considered them my head canon I would have to hate the Scoobies and I can't do that.

And why exactly is that a bad thing? Why can't roles can't be shifted as the narrative progresses and the characters develop?

Because I didn't sign up for Joyce the Vampire Slayer (mind you, Joyce was far more interesting than S5-7 Buffy but I hope you get the drift). I would argue that the characters didn't develop but actually regressed. Change is not always good. "But otherwise they would have remained exactly the same" is, frankly a lazy argument because for all we know another type of change might have ended up being far better than what we actually got.

As Willow grows up she becomes more powerful and makes her own mistakes so she just wouldn't be able to function so well as symbolic of Buffy's humanity anymore; she isn't an innocent and she isn't a damsel. It makes total sense for Dawn to take over from that.

Dawn's main role was to be a burden on Buffy's neck (I actually like Dawn more than most other characters in the latter seasons but let's call a spade a spade). This was never Willow's main role (except, ironically, in much of the "mature" seasons 6 and 7).

She's not S7 Buffy who is willing to make those hard decisions, she's S5 Buffy who has had to endure a lot and doesn't want to lose one more person.

Buffy made hard decisions all along (and very much avoided doing it in S7 by the way), which is why Giles's idiotic speech in The Gift made no sense. Also, the problem with Buffy's stance is that save for her magical third option solution which violated about 54 logic principles, Dawn would have died anyway. Buffy literally said she was willing to let the world burn just for a few more minutes of life for Dawn before pulling the solution out of her posterior. Joss has been pretty open about how he wasn't really bothered with plot details at the time and wanted things to make thematic sense. Though, I would argue that he spectacularly failed in that too - after an entire season of incredible unsubtle "Scoobies are family!" messages, suddenly what really saves the day is blood kinship?!?

There is just something really disturbing about the whole Buffy connection with Dawn. If a guy casts a spell to make a girl love him, he is a creep. Absolutely, IMO, and one of the weaker moments in B, B and B which I adore is Cordelia forgiving Xander so easily. But if some monks cast a spell which forces Joyce and Buffy to love Dawn, it's commendable somehow? It would have been different if the fake memories were dispelled at some point but that never happened. And it was completely unnecessary anyway - not only could Glory squash Buffy like a bug (and only failed to do so through many ridiculous plot contrivances) but Buffy would have protected the Key without any fake memories.

Sorry for the off-topic, slow day at work. 🙂

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I would like to ask you to stop sullying the good name of fanfiction by comparing it with the Twilight, for a lack of a better word, storyline. 🙂

Lol true. I have read many a fan fiction story that did a better job with characterizations that were actually in line with the characters we know from the show.

They should have hired Yahtzee to write the comics. 😉

 

[Grace]

They should have hired Yahtzee to write the comics. 😉

Ha, Yahtzee would never have touched the comics!

 

[RomanticSoul]

Where has Bechko admitted this? The quote I have seen from her is:

"Corinna Bechko: Thank you! I was contacted last year by Freddye at Dark Horse, who edits the series. I have done a bit of work for Dark Horse in the past (I co-wrote a couple of arcs of Star Wars: Legacy with Gabriel Hardman and wrote a Lara Croft miniseries, as well as a few other things) but this is my first foray into the Buffyverse. The early process consisted mostly of reading and rereading every single comic that had come before this season and rewatching the shows. There were also marching orders about what direction the story should take and some ideas from Joss Whedon and Dark Horse, but those were quite general. We then had some back-and-forth until a final story outline was settled on by all of us."

I don't know if it was her or whomever wrote Angel. But people have posted it here before about some writer(s) only working from an outline. I frankly don't care enough about the stupidity that is the comics to talk more about it. If they work for you, fine. For me they were dead with S8 and the utter OOC crap that was Angel/Twilight.

There is just something really disturbing about the whole Buffy connection with Dawn. If a guy casts a spell to make a girl love him, he is a creep. Absolutely, IMO, and one of the weaker moments in B, B and B which I adore is Cordelia forgiving Xander so easily. But if some monks cast a spell which forces Joyce and Buffy to love Dawn, it's commendable somehow?

I guess the same people wouldn't have minded if the monks had impregnated Buffy or Joyce without their consent. Though essentially when you get down to it, 'making Dawn out of Buffy' is pretty much the same. Would it have had a different impact if they had shown us the monks 'raping' either woman to create Dawn? The forced adoption of Dawn is just the graphically, and therefore acceptable, lesser version of that. They took something from Buffy without her consent (VIOLATION) and created something they foisted on her and her mother without their consent (VIOLATION) and topped it off with mind-altering them without their consent (VIOLATION). Hey, apparently it works for people. Me, I'm utterly disgusted with it. But apparently every child is a blessing right, so it doesn't matter if the mother had any agency at all in the child's creation. Pft, free will and agency, who wants that nonsense?

 

[Holden Webster]

@RomanticSoul How do you feel about Angel's decision to hand Connor over to another family?

 

[RomanticSoul]

@RomanticSoul How do you feel about Angel's decision to hand Connor over to another family?

See my above post.