Was Angel going to hell important to you?

Grace

Destructo-Girl
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Black Thorn
(For B/A fans only, please.) This is related to some of the conversation in the "Spuffy in the comics" thread, but I wanted to narrow in on this question. If Becoming had played out differently and Angel was re-ensouled without then being sent to hell and suffering for 100 years, would that have changed your view of B/A in Season 3 and beyond? Was it important to you that Angel was punished in some way for Angelus' murder of Jenny and other victims in Season 2? Or would his remorse for what happened have been enough? Or do you think he didn't even need to feel remorse since you see Angelus as a totally separate person?

I've been thinking about whether an actual punishment for Spike following Seeing Red would have made any difference to my feelings about that situation. On the one hand, I don't think it's fair to hold characters responsible for their soulless (or possessed) actions. On the other hand, I do think knowing Angel got punished probably did influence my feelings about his situation, even if it wasn't necessarily fair.
 
Angel was never responsible for any of Angelus' actions, so that's obviously a no. Angel needing to pay for the sins of Angelus was never the point, so much as the tragedy of the situation. The real culprit was never punished except for the fact that Angelus' own personal hell is actually being inside of Angel. A hell dimension wouldn't even be half as much of a punishment for Angelus.

However, what it did was cause Angel to come back, IMO, an even stronger person who became what he only became in BtVS season 3 and then on AtS because of that experience. His threshold for pain and torture was so tested and tried at that point that he could take just about anything. He also had a much stronger sense of self and what he wanted for his own journey after the trip to hell than prior.

And the fact that he still loved Buffy after 100 years is actually one of the biggest arguments against the nonsense about Bangel being in any way a mere immature crush. Immature crushes don't have an element of people sacrificing their own happiness for another to be had without them, nor do they have someone doing the right thing to save others at the cost of the person they want, love and care for most, but I digress. She was pretty much the only thing keeping him hanging onto his sanity there, so we know that emotion was extremely strong.
 
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Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
All. Of. This. Well said.
I think the fact that he does feel remorse is to his credit. A colder person could rationalise it away, but then he would not have been Angel.

The scene where Buffy kills Angel is one of the most poignant moment in the series. A happy ending would have been anticlimactic in comparison. It would have been like the ending to season 4. Friendship is magic. Good job, team. Nothing would be lost.

When Angel comes back from Hell, we get to see Buffy nurse him back to health. The two of them are isolated from the world. It strengthens the Romeo and Juliet magic of their relationship.

Another great moment is when Buffy begs Angel not to kill himself in Amends. You could not have that if Angel did not feel some guilt.

Good writers know the importance of leaving their audience unsatisfied 😉
 
Angelus and Angel are the same person but Angel isn't responsible for what he did while he had no soul. However saying that Angel is a respectable and great character because he takes responsibility for what Angelus has done which makes him feel very real. So it's not that I think Angel deserves to be punished but seeing him go to hell and bear it with a smile so to speak was good for his character. With Spike in season 7, I don't necessarily want to see him punished but to put it politely the writers had a lot of nerve giving Spike as many excuses as they did in season 7, and it just made Spike seem very unappealing.
 
Angel and Angelus are NOT the same person.

Angelus is the demon (vampires are nothing but blank slate, mindless, animalistic predators who take on the personalities and memories of the deceased and pervert their feelings, but aren't them) who killed Liam. Angel is Liam stuffed into his old body as the dominant entity, thus sharing the same memories and mind with the demon who can do little more than try to influence from inside a cage.

Angel is the result of Liam facing everything Angelus did in his body by perverting his human weaknesses (women and drink amongst them) and anger at humanity for inhumanity to each other, never being good enough for his father and religious hypocrisy (yet at the same time, a strong affinity with Catholicism and its views on guilt, sin, damnation, purity vs. impurity and a need to repent and pay for sins), but being so horrified by it that it changes him. Actually, it completely shatters him to the point of turning him into a socially-incompetent introvert from an extrovert.

Angel(us)'s skills in art, art collecting, languages (seemingly omnilingual in human languages), eidetic memory and the desire to see the world through travel (the last is actually expressed by Liam to Darla) actually all came from Liam. There also seems to be a lot of disgust with stupidity (Liam disliking "simpering morons" and wanting to meet someone interesting--looking in all the wrong places, Angelus mocking his victims and Angel referring to the gypsy girl as "dumb as a post") and class consciousness (from Liam mocking his father for eating with his hands and having pretensions despite only having one servant, to Angelus' taste for finery to the point of mocking the Master living in a sewer, to Angel's own taste for large living spaces) that continues through them.

They're separate entities, but all vampire demons steal from the human memories and personalities of their hosts, as they have none of their own.

Angel is still not responsible for the actions of the demon, even if Liam's personality did have an affect on what Angelus became. The fact that Liam got a huge wake-up call from the flood of horrible things done in his body while absent (it doesn't help that he remembers in the first person, because the mind is shared) proves that he actually did always have the strong sense of morality deep down later expressed by Angel. His tendency to feel guilt and blame himself doesn't mean he was actually the one responsible. That just means he has a very strong conscience. There also might be a little bit of Liam blaming himself for Angelus being worse than other vampires, despite it not even being him.
 
It's an interesting question. I think Angel needed to go to Hell from a story standpoint, not because he should be punished for Angelus' actions, but because it was important to Buffy's story. Having to kill her lover made Buffy grow up, she understood the sacrifices that had to be made to save the world, in that moment Buffy wasn't Buffy, she was the slayer. Had everything worked out fine, we never would've gotten that character growth from Buffy.
 
(For B/A fans only, please.)

LOL... good luck with that one! 😉

If Becoming had played out differently and Angel was re-ensouled without then being sent to hell and suffering for 100 years, would that have changed your view of B/A in Season 3 and beyond? Was it important to you that Angel was punished in some way for Angelus' murder of Jenny and other victims in Season 2? Or would his remorse for what happened have been enough? Or do you think he didn't even need to feel remorse since you see Angelus as a totally separate person?

I agree a great deal with what @NileQT87 says. Especially:

And the fact that he still loved Buffy after 100 years is actually one of the biggest arguments against the nonsense about Bangel being in any way a mere immature crush.

Also why I think Angel getting "over" Buffy a few years after he left Sunnydale ridiculous. If he didn't get over her after 100 years in hell I feel like he probably wasn't over her in Season 3. But I digress...

Although I don't believe that Angel needed to be punished for the crimes that Angelus committed, I think it was cathartic to know that Angel does suffer as a result of the crimes of his demon commits. I think the audience would have struggled to completely forgive Angel for all of the evil committed by Angelus if they had started off Season 3 and Angel was just back with no additional struggles (see for example Season 7 Spike). Whether or not Angel is responsible for the deaths and atrocities he committed, we as the audience still saw the demon wearing his face doing these things and we needed to time to process these aacts. The fact that Angel is punished for crimes his soul did not commit makes him, in my eyes, a more sympathetic character and it makes it easier for the audience to accept him back into the good guy fold.

I remember hearing Joss Whedon say that they chose to have Angel kill Jenny with his vamp face on because they felt that the audience would never forgive him or be able to look at him in a sympathetic light if he was wearing his human face. I found that intriguing especially since they chose to shoot Seeing Red with Spike's human visage not his vamp face. I wonder what the intent was there.
 
Acathla's curse that would have swallowed the world is the key point here. Buffy had been fighting Angel and was gradually losing. Then Willow's spell kicked in and Angel did not continue the fight. It must have seemed to Buffy like she was committing a massive betrayal when she said, "Close your eyes" and ran him through with a sword. This is where Buffy grew up. Before, Buffy + Angel could have been considered puppy love, a first teen romance or something equally demeaning. But at this point, Buffy could separate her desires and her duty and performed her duty to the exclusion of anything else. At the end of the fight, she had been expelled from school, driven out of her own home and now she had killed her lover.

The fact that she had not only killed her lover, she had consigned him to hell must have weighed heavily on her. But she could finally do what was necessary.
 
The fact that she had not only killed her lover, she had consigned him to hell must have weighed heavily on her. But she could finally do what was necessary.

Definitely. Becoming is a masterpiece, and I'm not suggesting that it *should* have played out differently. I was just trying to tease out whether Angel getting punished for Angelus' actions in Season 2 made a difference to how you viewed his character.

I remember hearing Joss Whedon say that they chose to have Angel kill Jenny with his vamp face on because they felt that the audience would never forgive him or be able to look at him in a sympathetic light if he was wearing his human face. I found that intriguing especially since they chose to shoot Seeing Red with Spike's human visage not his vamp face. I wonder what the intent was there.

This is a really interesting point. Seems like it had to be a very deliberate choice, right? Everything about that scene seemed intended to be intensely disturbing.
 
There is an interesting conversation between between Angel and Spike at the end of damaged. Spike says the girl is a monster. Angel says she is innocent. Spike retorts, "So were we." Guilt is a tricky thing. Most bad people had bad things happen to them. Angel chooses to beat his guilt on his shoulders. It is one of this defining qualities. In season 1, he throws away that magic ring, because he does not want to live among the happy people.
I remember hearing Joss Whedon say that they chose to have Angel kill Jenny with his vamp face on because they felt that the audience would never forgive him or be able to look at him in a sympathetic light if he was wearing his human face. I found that intriguing especially since they chose to shoot Seeing Red with Spike's human visage not his vamp face. I wonder what the intent was there.
There is a lot of slippage between evil Spike and good Spike. So much that it is impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends or whether they are much different at all. However, they did use Spike's face for this effect in Dead Things. Buffy stops pounding him when his face turns human.
 
That conversation is referring to Liam and William having been innocent victims once, just as Dana was. At the end of Lineage, they also refer to themselves by their human names. It's a trend in that season to refer more to their human selves.

And it's not because he doesn't want to live amongst happy people, but rather because he wants to help those who don't have help lost in the night. Angel does sleep, you know. He either is on a nocturnal or diurnal schedule. If he starts living during the day, the ones he is meant to help are the ones who suffer. The people in the daylight when it comes to human monsters--those people have help from the human world. He's there to help the ones who are outside of the human abilities for help. He also knows he has more work to do and something that only might seem like a premature reward would make him forget. There's also the fact that he's a target for every single vampire who would be coming after him and all of his loved ones (putting everyone around him at risk) constantly if they knew about the ring. The ring is hardly a good thing, given that it was made to benefit vampires. Angel had tons of reasons to get rid of the ring.

As for Spike, the show did a better job of remembering its mythology with him right after he came back from Africa. He was talking as William and remembering William's memories (such as dropping his slate and the chalk running), not merely what Spike last did in his body. This was an attempt to liken him to how when Angel was first ensouled, he had no idea where he was or what he had done, as his last memories were of Liam. Likewise, when Angel was run through with the sword, he was likely only still remembering the night of Surprise, as he once again had no idea what he had done for months, though he seemed to have a vague sense of missing time. With Angel's third ensouling, it perhaps had happened so many times by that point that he got the gist of what Angelus was up to (predictable) and skipped right past trying to remember anything yet and jumping into action. Also, a few days (much of AtS season 4 is incredibly compressed into a few weeks) is a lot less to digest than 145 years or 4 months of missing time.

However, they threw all of this away because the Spike fangirls were rioting and wanting their trophy jacket-wearing bad boy back and made Buffy look like a complete cold-hearted bitca to get him back in it in Get It Done. William chose in that episode to put Spike back on just like his costume because Buffy (and the Spike fangirls) wanted him to. More of William thankfully started leaking back into Spike's characterization when he was getting more mature in the latter part of AtS season 5. No wonder Spike didn't think Buffy loved him; she didn't like William when she finally met him.
 
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Angelus and Angel are the same person but Angel isn't responsible for what he did while he had no soul. However saying that Angel is a respectable and great character because he takes responsibility for what Angelus has done which makes him feel very real. So it's not that I think Angel deserves to be punished but seeing him go to hell and bear it with a smile so to speak was good for his character. With Spike in season 7, I don't necessarily want to see him punished but to put it politely the writers had a lot of nerve giving Spike as many excuses as they did in season 7, and it just made Spike seem very unappealing.

They are separate characters and were created and written to be exact opposites. Their actions are very different not to mention what they say. Angel feels love, compassion, and cares about people. Angelus feels none of those things. Where Angel wants to help Angelus wants to destroy and be as cruel as possible. Angelus did all the bad things in S2. The only thing they share is a body, face and the need for blood to survive. I don't believe Angel should make amends or feel bad for what Angelus did and does since it was not him.
 
Angel wasn't being punished for Angelus's crimes and Buffy had no choice to send him where she did. She had to put the world before Angel even though that meant sending him to an awful place. Not to mention being without him. The end of becoming didn't change how I saw Angel.
 
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They are separate characters and were created and written to be exact opposites.

They're different characters but they are still the same person, it's just that when Angel doesn't have a soul the demon in him has no conscience to hold him back. I think Angel and Angelus would have had to be given far more differences for me to think they're different people because Angel is still a demon even when he has a soul. I don't think that Angel should be punished but I do love that Angel thinks he should be punished.
Angel feels love, compassion, and cares about people. Angelus feels none of those things. Where Angel wants to help Angelus wants to destroy and be as cruel as possible.
Yeah but that's because of the soul not because they're different people.
 
Spike says the girl is a monster. Angel says she is innocent. Spike retorts, "So were we."

I know this is slightly tangental and I apologize for that but it has to do with Angel and guilt. I think that Angel has always felt the heavy burden of the decision he made to follow Darla into that alley. It seems that Angel thinks that Liam was complicit in allowing Darla to turn him. Sure, Liam could not have known what he was signing up for. But this scene always struck me. Spike seems to feel that he was wholly the victim. Spike himself seemed equally taken by Drusilla's proposal. I think this really shows how differently Angel and Spike see the world. And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
 
I know this is slightly tangental and I apologize for that but it has to do with Angel and guilt. I think that Angel has always felt the heavy burden of the decision he made to follow Darla into that alley. It seems that Angel thinks that Liam was complicit in allowing Darla to turn him. Sure, Liam could not have known what he was signing up for. But this scene always struck me. Spike seems to feel that he was wholly the victim. Spike himself seemed equally taken by Drusilla's proposal. I think this really shows how differently Angel and Spike see the world. And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
He probably feels that because it was a direct result of how useless he was as a human - drunk and chasing every bit of skirt he could find. He knows he only followed her because he wanted a quickie. Twit.
 
I know this is slightly tangental and I apologize for that but it has to do with Angel and guilt. I think that Angel has always felt the heavy burden of the decision he made to follow Darla into that alley. It seems that Angel thinks that Liam was complicit in allowing Darla to turn him. Sure, Liam could not have known what he was signing up for. But this scene always struck me. Spike seems to feel that he was wholly the victim. Spike himself seemed equally taken by Drusilla's proposal. I think this really shows how differently Angel and Spike see the world. And the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
That is a good reading and it fits very well with what Angel say in Amends.

I see it like this: Angel and Spike both see the world as absurd and chaotic. To Spike - and Faith - this means freedom. In a world where right and wrong is muddy, they can do what they want. Angel insists on imposing morality upon the world. That is why he must atone and why he wants to help the slayer. He could be pragmatic and say that he is not responsible for Angelus and that the slayer is beyond help, but then he would not be the champion. He would be like all the other shitty people.
 
He could be pragmatic and say that he is not responsible for Angelus and that the slayer is beyond help, but then he would not be the champion. He would be like all the other shitty people.

You better watch it you sound an awful lot like an Angel fan here! 😉
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
If you read through my comments with a magnifying glass, you will find that I do in fact say nice things about Angel and even AtS from time to time ;)
They are different people. Liam is a human. Angelus is a demon. Angel is a human in control of a demon body with a demon inside of him and memories of being a demon.

Liam was a lot more complex than people assume from the most vapid reading of the flashbacks. There are hints of it.

The biggest one being the line about wanting to the see the world and Angel telling Buffy how he wished to meet someone interesting (which explains why he went looking in all the wrong places), but this is at the stage where Liam is so unfulfilled by his life (there are lots of hints of that) that he's in a full downward spiral. As Liam says, he feels he can never get his father's approval, so he lives down to every low his father expects of him. He also hints in Spin the Bottle that religious hypocrisy of some sort is an issue Liam had with his father. It's mentioned that Liam's father is a middle class silk and linen merchant (has pretensions that Liam calls him out on concerning multiple servants instead of their one and eating with his hands despite owning silverware--note that provided tableware, rather than a B.Y.O. knife or a cadena pouch, was still a relatively new thing in the 18th century with the fork not even having widespread use until the 18th-19th centuries--it was still deemed unmanly by some). If Liam wanted to travel the world and pursue art, culture and languages (which appear to have been his talents and interests), he would have been very smothered if he were being forced into his father's business and staying in Galway. We do see that Liam has a heart, as he cares about his sister, Kathy. Liam was looking for a way out of Galway and we see that in his words to Darla.

Of course, we also see Liam's father as a disappointed father with an out-of-control son (how much of it is due to him being stifled and unable to get any support for what he wanted for himself?), which Angel later sees the other side of when he's father to Connor.

Liam was even less aware of what was happening to him than William was. Liam, focused on the beautiful stranger offering to show him her world, trustfully didn't even have his eyes open when Darla bit him (as surly as he was a moment before when he was drunkenly plotting to steal silver, hints of Angel's thoughtful, sweet demeanor and a certain yearning innocence in Liam actually does come out in his final moments when speaking to Darla about what he wants), whereas William was looking right at Drusilla's game face and was still taken in by her, even if he was more vocal about how the biting hurt. Of all the Fanged Four, Liam had the least idea of what was happening to him. Darla was the only one who willingly seemed to want the Master's offer, as she was so afraid of death and had no concern for people who had never loved or cared for her. Liam's trustfulness is later seen with Angel trusting Buffy when she also tells him to close his eyes, while he naively has no idea of what is going on and can't remember anything Angelus has done in his body for 4 months.

Angel, much like Liam, still does have a weakness for strong, interesting women, while seemingly having very low opinions of those who are "dumb as a post" or "simpering morons". This is why he was first entranced by Darla and then by Buffy.

But unlike bad girl Darla (a former syphilitic prostitute behind all of that glamorous, high-class finery and staying in the best hotels with a view), Buffy is the complete opposite. Buffy is a good girl (even something of a goody-two-shoe) who wants to help people. Although pure and virginal, she's worldly and smart in the modern L.A. teenager sort of way. She might not be academically brilliant, but she has imagination that serves her well as a Slayer. Her fight to retain her normal human life despite it all is also inspiring to Angel and he does a lot of things to support this, even if it means not being with him. He's the boyfriend who takes her to the ice rink to connect her to her pre-Slayer human life. He's the boyfriend who wants her to have every human thing he can't give her (such as the children he wants and can't have--Angel makes it clear as early as Bad Eggs how much he wants to be a father and how much it bothers him that he can't be). Angel is so inspired by her humanity that he wants to turn himself into the champion of it. He is not only in love with Buffy, but, through her, all of humanity.

As Angel even said to Buffy in Amends, it's not the demon she's at risk from so much as the human man who wants her. Angel is less concerned by his vampire drive to feed than his human drive (Liam's weakness) when it comes to Buffy. Angel is better at holding back the demon who is not him than the human man he really is.

Another thing about his attraction to Buffy... Unlike Spike, Angelus had no interest in Slayers. Angelus had no interest in a strong victim who makes a point to destroy every bit of her humanity to become nothing but a fighting machine. That's Spike's M.O. to be interested in a physical challenge. For Angelus, there's nothing human there to break psychologically. Darla, who fears death after coming so close to it as a human, would also want to stay far away from the vampire's equivalent of a bogeyman and this explains her response to Buffy's reveal.

That's why Angel was so shocked at what Whistler showed him when he saw Buffy. As Angel says, he thought she'd "be bigger, or muscles and all that." Instead, he sees a young girl getting her world stripped away from her: losing her normal high school life, her friends, struggling to stake her first vampire, her parents' marriage collapsing and Buffy all breaking down before his eyes. What Angel saw was the exact opposite of what a Slayer is supposed to be. Slayers were supposed to be Kendra: taken away from their families and raised to be nothing but killing machines with no human earthly connections like friends, family or relationships. Buffy broke all of those rules and fiercely fought against losing her humanity (though she seemed to start giving up on it in BtVS season 5). Angel, who also broke all the rules of what he was, also saw himself having his whole world and everything he had ever known taken from him in an instant, losing everything, having no friends and then getting dumped with a destiny he didn't ask for (both becoming a vampire and getting a soul against his will, just as Buffy was chosen against her will). Angel had no interest in Buffy because she was the Slayer, but because he saw a sad, human girl whom he wanted to help and didn't think she should be suffering alone. Angel could relate to being the only one of your kind in the world and feeling alone. He empathized with her.

And yet, that girl was giving up everything she had ever known because she still wanted to help people. Buffy restored Angel's faith in humanity and was the first person to still want to be his friend and love him even after knowing what he was. Angel was terrified of anyone finding out what he was, because it had gone horribly wrong before (like being hanged in the Hyperion's lobby the last time he tried to help someone). It's no wonder that he thought he could only help Buffy as long as she didn't know. He was always waiting for the inevitable scream, accusations of him being a monster and rejection. In the prior century, all of his efforts to fit back into both vampire and human societies had failed miserably.

I've seen bizarre criticism (usually with a slam on DB's acting, when he's clearly acting exactly what is called for) of Angel acting differently in Welcome to the Hellmouth. Yet, we see the façade of Angel pretending he has it together and is in any way suave and confident when that mask completely collapses as soon as Buffy asks him whether he knows what it is like to have a friend in The Harvest and he can't answer. It's not 1x07 that the façade breaks down, but actually The Harvest's mausoleum scene and that's actually when Buffy seems to actually start to like him (the real him she empathizes with after losing all of her friends, not the confident image he thought she might like better). His behavior in Welcome to the Hellmouth is a lie. His line about how he perceived Slayers to be is actually backed up by Angelus' warning to Spike in Fool for Love. His lines in Helpless and flashback in Becoming, pt. 1 don't actually contradict that he expected someone bigger and stronger than Buffy, as that's exactly what he thought big, scary Slayers were supposed to be before he saw her. It's just that it was half a year earlier that his preconception was completely undone. He doesn't explicitly say that Welcome to the Hellmouth is his first time seeing her and that's not a continuity error.

While Liam might have been very debauched, there's evidence that Angel really had never experienced anything like love until he was with Buffy. It was as new for him as it was her. He also had a lot of innocence to lose.

There's a reason Angel would still consider Liam a victim, no matter how he's perceived as somehow 'asking for it' because he was so flawed. Angel might feel guilt for Liam's flaws creating Angelus, but he still views Liam as a victim who had his entire world crashed down on him, especially when he was dumped back in a demon's body 145 years later and forced to cope with Angelus' memories of crimes. While Liam certainly had issues with Catholic hypocrisy, he was still a Catholic, himself. We see Angel constantly seeking cosmic forgiveness and being very humble in the presence of churches (it seems to go beyond vampire fear) and a real problem with the fact that vampirism is damnation. There's an interesting moment particularly in I Got You Under My Skin where his reaction to Jesus on the cross and the nun are both noteworthy. Angel seems to be very afraid of where he is destined to go when he dies because of his religious background, which is why he is so much more focused on cosmic forgiveness. His preoccupation with this is way beyond Darla or Spike's when they also have their souls.
 
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