Was Buffy too conservative?

[MarieVampSlayer]

Hey all!

So I have heard on many threads that althought Buffy was seen as a progressive character back in the 90s-earky 00s, a lot of people sees her as pretty conservative.

I think I agree but I would need more proof of it! What do you guys think?

The only one thing I can think of is how she is at first freak out by Willow's homosexuality in S4.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Progressive? Maybe. But it was a different era. Late 90's/early 2000's; Buffy and the Charmed Ones were girls who kicked demon ass and were pretty much self-reliant. It was kind of a new thing for girls to fight and save the day.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I never thought Buffy was progressive. There really wasn't any evidence of that. Nor was there evidence of her being conservative.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy was revolutionary. That was the whole point of the show.

 

[RachM]

Buffy was revolutionary. That was the whole point of the show.

Actually, the show wasn't created from a place of revolution or feminism or progression but rather to subvert the standard horror trope of the tiny blonde girl dying first in horror films. Joss has said that he was watching a horror film one day and was feeling sorry for said girl and thought to himself "What if she fought back instead of being a passive victim?" and thus Buffy was born.

I think the reason that Buffy became such a feminist icon/was seen a so progressive is because there really weren't a lot of characters on television (or even in print or in movies) like her back then, especially with regards to how intelligently she was written and how much agency and autonomy she initially had in the show. Teen girl characters of the 90s tended to be less multi-faceted/layered and so Buffy broke the mold and quickly became seen as different, as a better and stronger role model for teen girls than was the norm of the decade. The only other teen female character of the 90s I can think of who was as layered and complex as Buffy was Rachel Berenson of the Animorphs book series.

 

[thetopher]

Actually, the show wasn't created from a place of revolution or feminism or progression but rather to subvert the standard horror trope of the tiny blonde girl dying first in horror films. Joss has said that he was watching a horror film one day and was feeling sorry for said girl and thought to himself "What if she fought back instead of being a passive victim?" and thus Buffy was born.

I meant that Buffy the character was revolutionary in her actions during the run of the show; she kept on overthrowing systems of control. I don't think that's a very conservative message.

But I think I misunderstood the question so ignore me.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't think that's a very conservative message.

But she also yearned for the normality of the status quo, never really embracing who she was- at least not for many seasons. That's why I never really saw her as progressive either. She wanted to be the typical teenage girl.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I don't think Buffy was freaked out by Willow's sexuality.
I think she was just shocked.
She saw how intensely Willow loved Oz and they hadn't broken things off that long ago before Willow revealed that she was gay.
Buffy also witnessed Willow's crush on Xander.
All Buffy had ever seen was Willow's interest in men. And at least to me, Willow didn't really give many underlying hints that she might be bisexual.
Even in s7, she says one girl- meaning she loved Tara. This always made me think of Willow as someone who fell in love with a person regardless of gender.... anyways that's not the point here lol.
What I'm trying to say is I think Buffy was more shocked than freaked.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I want to understand your question better @MarieVampSlayer - do you mean Buffy as a character. Whether she was a person who had some conservative ideologies?

 

[thrasherpix]

Neither conservative nor progressive. I can't say I blame her, she was hijacked into being a Slayer by magic and had other things to worry about than things like gender politics. She did rebel against authority (and also reacted poorly to extreme political and cultural views as most people will), but that alone isn't enough to make one either progressive or conservative.

The show itself, OTOH, was pretty progressive for its time, though in a mild, moderate way.

Perhaps its worth mentioning that I used to belong to a mostly female group of gun sports enthusiasts and many in it, male and female, leaned conservative who loved the show. But I don't recall the more politically conservative extreme members ever talking about.

 

[Bite-me]

If the show was not groundbreaking or a watershed, it was very much of its time and hugely influential which is not always one and the same. So was it revolutionary? no, the show did not go against the countervail force of culture but became a icon from it, precisely because it represented the very zeitgeist of that time, which is a magnificently huge thing.

It is interesting that the show came to be because a man wanted to subvert horror cliches. And Buffy is a terrific tv show precisely because this reason, that it subverts our expectations of whats to come at every corner.

Would Buffy have been what it was as imagined by a women or man with a explicit political agenda? maybe not because maybe that is not how art works best.

Yet gender and politics is the world we live in, might a women like Buffy be represented on screen without the women's liberation movement and the 20th century? everything is one.

 

[thetopher]

But she also yearned for the normality of the status quo, never really embracing who she was- at least not for many seasons. That's why I never really saw her as progressive either. She wanted to be the typical teenage girl.

I agree that she was conflicted, but her actions were 'progressive' in the way they stood up to controlling out-of-date elements. She wanted 'normalcy' but was prepared to change the systems of control to eventually 'gain' a kind of normalcy.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

but was prepared to change the systems of control to eventually 'gain' a kind of normalcy.

I never really saw that till later, I thought it was all part of her growing up as something everyone does moreso than her being a progressive character.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

I want to understand your question better @MarieVampSlayer - do you mean Buffy as a character. Whether she was a person who had some conservative ideologies?

I mean Buffy as a women like if she existed IRL. Because she has such a progressive ''job'' for a 90s women but does she have conservative ideologies.

You can also say as a character but that says more about the writers than Buffy herself.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I wouldn't call Buffy conservative, but she was certainly uptight at times!

How Buffy responded to Willow being gay is what comes to mind for me, too. But I think Buffy's reaction was a result of surprise more than, say, a judgment of Willow being gay.

 

[gnarl]

I meant that Buffy the character was revolutionary in her actions during the run of the show; she kept on overthrowing systems of control. I don't think that's a very conservative message.

But I think I misunderstood the question so ignore me.

I never really thought of it that way but you're right. We never see her express her political views and she didn't seem to engage with feminism on an 'academic' level but within her own life she was revolutionary.

I remember reading an article in a book about race and super heroes where the author proposes that (among other reasons) POC super heroes are seldom portrays because the evils that people of colour face are very much real and very much structural. The idea of 'saving the world' is based on the assumption that the world is just fine the way it is (something that might be easier to believe if you where say, a cis, het, white male). Even if you do save the world of from a malicious mastermind, your haven't 'saved' it until there is a fundamental shift in the way society functions.

When Willow and Buffy activate all the potential slayers they do just that. They change the way their world works on a very fundamental level. She literally empowers hundred on women across the globe while obliterating what little is left of the power of the watchers' council over the slayers. I'd say that willingness to change the very way the world works in order to make it better is pretty progressive.

 

[thetopher]

I remember reading an article in a book about race and super heroes where the author proposes that (among other reasons) POC super heroes are seldom portrays because the evils that people of colour face are very much real and very much structural. The idea of 'saving the world' is based on the assumption that the world is just fine the way it is (something that might be easier to believe if you where say, a cis, het, white male)

Well, this is true up until 'The Bronze Age' of superheroes, which started in the late 60's early 70's; you tended to have some superheroes sometimes grappling with and dealing with social issues as well as punching bad guys in the chops.

You had X-Men, Power-Man, Spider-Man (quite a few Marvel but I'm sure some DC ones as well) who portrayed social ills in a somewhat accurate light (a bit symplified obviously).
This social commentary shifted a bit in the 90's where you got 'damaged' superheroes who weren't in a position to judge society (they were too busy filling their various pouches with god knows what!), they just tended to kill bad guys.

 

[gnarl]

Well, this is true up until 'The Bronze Age' of superheroes, which started in the late 60's early 70's; you tended to have some superheroes sometimes grappling with and dealing with social issues as well as punching bad guys in the chops.

You had X-Men, Power-Man, Spider-Man (quite a few Marvel but I'm sure some DC ones as well) who portrayed social ills in a somewhat accurate light (a bit symplified obviously).
This social commentary shifted a bit in the 90's where you got 'damaged' superheroes who weren't in a position to judge society (they were too busy filling their various pouches with god knows what!), they just tended to kill bad guys.

yes, and I oversimplified the idea for the sake of fitting it in to a single paragraph.
another reason superheroes often can't really solve social problems is because we need them to be able to exist in a world which is a reflection of our own (if they are meant to be living on earth) and if they change too much about their world, it becomes difficult to relate to as an audience. I think there was a bit of that in the season 8 Buffy comics actually.
Also, having super powers doesn't necessarily equip you to change government policy or public attitudes. 🙂

 

[The Bronze]

Buffy wasn't too conservative for me. We don't see her express political opinions and she spends her time saving people and living her life. I think keeping thinks relatively neutral like that worked well for the show. It means people have room for interpretation and also means it didn't really alienate potential viewers.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I mean Buffy as a women like if she existed IRL. Because she has such a progressive ''job'' for a 90s women but does she have conservative ideologies.

You can also say as a character but that says more about the writers than Buffy herself.

Yeah - I think Buffy herself had some fairly traditional notions especially early on in the show. I'll say this, I don't see her at burning man. That's more Jenny Calendar's thing. I would not call Buffy a conservative though.