What would you change?

MarieVampSlayer

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
Hey all!

So S4 of Buffy is sometimes seen as a more problematic season because of Adam, Riley and the initiative. If you could make it better what would you change? Would you have Professor Walsh as the BB like many members have suggested?

Let's discuss!

🙂
 
MarieVampSlayer said:
I agree but how so? What would have been the finale battle with her as the BB?
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Not sure there would be a final battle, per se. I recall Whedon saying that it was more ideological. It's quite possible she just unleashed an army similar to what happened in the finale, but I remember him saying that he wanted the Big Bad to be a human with a difference of opinion as a- she never fought a human before and b- it had always been presented as human good, demon/monster bad.
 
Spanky said:
Not sure there would be a final battle, per se. I recall Whedon saying that it was more ideological. It's quite possible she just unleashed an army similar to what happened in the finale, but I remember him saying that he wanted the Big Bad to be a human with a difference of opinion as a- she never fought a human before and b- it had always been presented as human good, demon/monster bad.
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Oh I would've love that, I can see the appeal of a morally ambigious human as the BB. The trio was not that effective in that sense I feel.
 
Good topic! I've never been a fan of how Primeval ended. The enjoining spell kicks in, and suddenly Buffy is embued with "the power." (Hey, where did those bird feathers come from? Why is she talking in that weird voice and why are her eyes yellow? Corny!)

However, I can't picture Maggie as the Big Bad. She was just a creepy old lady with control issues. Not frightening at all. It might've been interesting if Riley suddenly became stronger than Adam...and he was the one who saved the day. Definitely would've helped his wimpy image. 😛
 
I don't like the idea of Maggie as the big bad. She annoyed me more than Adam. I just think most of the Initiative arc is weak in general. I'm not sure I can say change that whole thing though. So I say have Adam be one or two episodes, and have another big bad outside of the Initiative.
 
I just don't take s4s big bad seriously.
I don't take the initiative seriously.
There was so much fundamentally wrong with execution and idea of this in general that I don't even know where to begin to fix it lol.
I just take it for what it is and try to enjoy s4 for what it is- a more or less light hearted season dealing with issues of adjusting to college and growing up with some weird initiative stuff thrown in

One of my favorite scenes ever from the whole show actually occurs in this season, when Dr. Walsh tells Riley Buffy is dead and boom Buffy appears on the screen and tells Walsh that she clearly doesn't know what a slayer is if she thought those demons were gonna kill her. Such a great moment!!
 
Fool for Buffy
Fool for Buffy
Pathetic set up. I mean 2 random demons vs Buffy. Come on! :)
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
That scene is iconic!
  1. Don't have Faith rape Buffy in the bathtub (stripped her naked and touched her naked body, that's the same thing Spike did in Seeing Red but he didn't get as far)
  2. Don't have Faith rape Buffy in the dorm room
  3. Don't have Faith use Buffy's body to rape Riley
  4. Don't have Faith trick Riley into raping Buffy
  5. Don't have the first time Buffy has sex with someone more than once be without her consent
  6. Don't use Buffy's own vagina and ass when her boyfriend is cheating, it's bad enough it's the same bed they slept on and continue to sleep on the rest of the season
  7. Don't have the first time Riley says "I love you" to Buffy be said to Faith as she was raping him
^ Forever my top ones for s4
 
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Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
You really like that word, I see.
ChaseRules
ChaseRules
I see the same thing .
I think they would have kept Adam on regardless of whether Lindsey Crouse was available. But if she had been available and Maggie Walsh had thereby stuck around longer, maybe it would have improved the season, as it would have given Adam a character to play opposite and to have some sort of dynamic with. The Mayor was so fantastic, because he developed this father-daughter-bond with Faith and I could have seen them do a mother-demon-baby-adopted-soldier-brother-dynamic with Maggie, Adam and Riley. Maybe that would have made it more interesting, though I am not exactly sure, because they tried to give Adam characters to interact with, we got Adam/Riley and Adam/Spike scenes and they just did not play well.

Generally, I do think season four could have also been a little bit darker, they did so many more soapy and comedic episode during that season. Some more scary stuff along the lines of Hush or even Fear Itself would have been nice. I also think they kind of missed the opportunity to develop a string of recurring college characters to fill out the world, like they did in the high school years with Larry, Harmony, Percy and whoever was there.
 
1. Reunite Spike and Drusilla. Have him get the Gem of Amara for her and have her get caught and chipped by the initiative.

2. Give Joyce more to do. She should be on Team Scooby in some capacity.

3. Keep the government out of it. Make the initiative be Maggie Walsh's personal hobby where she hand picks the members.

4. Make Warren a part of the iniative and have him create Adam for Walsh.

5. Have Adam be Walsh's deceased son and she had a bot made of him which she uses as part of the initiative.

6. Introduce Katrina as part of the initiative who befriends Buffy.

7. Have the Briley relationship have a sinister under current that Buffy is not aware of (though you could say it already does in-show but is just never acknowledged as such).

8. Have Tara cameo in episodes before Hush.

9. Make Tara more confident. She used to stay out all night and defied her family to attend college, reflect that rebelliousness in her personality (at least around Willow).

10.Have Giles and Joyce in a casual relationship. Buffy worries they've been on the Band Candy again despite their denials.

11.Show a scene of Buffy trying to shake a squished Gachnar off her shoe. It doesn't add anything to the episode but it would be amusing.

12. Have Dawn be a result of Buffy's one night stand with Parker. Mention Nikki Wood.
 
NeddaSai
NeddaSai
Your #1 is so intriguing, please tell me there's a fic for it? Also love #4, makes total sense in my head.
Everytime I rewatch S4 I have less issues with it tbh.

Probably would've kept Kathy around for 2 more episodes.

Kept Sunday around for at least the first half of the season

Maybe deal with sororities

Have Cordelia crossover for an episode. One of the series biggest mistakes was not having her show up again after she left.
 
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Totally agree about Sunday & Kathy! 😁
My issue with the Initative was that they quickly came and went, I think it would have been better if we had hints that they were operating in Sunnydale during the earlier seasons, like we had with the Mayor. They weren't explained well, did they come in because the Mayor had been killed? I like the idea that they were corrupt and think that could have been done better, not with Adam but something else.
 
The thing is that the stand alone episodes are fantastic. The initiative is the biggest flaw. I envision the first episode existing more or less the same but with Sunday escaping only to go running straight into Spike. The two of them form a new group that acts as a sort of dark mirror to the scoobies. As the scoobies drift apart we see the Spike/Sunday group dynamic tighten, with Faith joining up with them once she comes out of her coma. I can totally picture Sunday and Faith walking in slow-mo together and just in general being BFF's.

An evil Faith, unchipped Spike, and Sunday? Now that is an intimidating trio.

I would have liked more big bad storylines that focus on actual vampires.

Would have done away with Riley altogether.
 
caitaintdead said:
The thing is that the stand alone episodes are fantastic. The initiative is the biggest flaw. I envision the first episode existing more or less the same but with Sunday escaping only to go running straight into Spike. The two of them form a new group that acts as a sort of dark mirror to the scoobies. As the scoobies drift apart we see the Spike/Sunday group dynamic tighten, with Faith joining up with them once she comes out of her coma. I can totally picture Sunday and Faith walking in slow-mo together and just in general being BFF's.

An evil Faith, unchipped Spike, and Sunday? Now that is an intimidating trio.

I would have liked more big bad storylines that focus on actual vampires.

Would have done away with Riley altogether.
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I know it'd put a halt on the Five by five/Sanctuary eps (which are some of the strongest of Angel season 1) but dammit if I don't wish they would've kept Faith around and evil a bit longer. I love this whole scenario and more focus on actual vampires.

Not sure I'd get rid of Riley though, but I wouldn't necessarily fight to keep him either.
 
Wow... what a huge question.

1. To start... keep Sunday. She was a great villain that could have lasted if she was given more to do. Who was she, was she really slaypire? Did she ever have a run in with spike? That could have been a great way to contrast late season 4.

2. Make Adam more human looking at least at the beginning, maybe even handsome like Riley, but still twisted and evil.

3. Instead of Adam being the big bad, make him an underling to Sunday you'd end the season with a mirror for Buff instead of a crazy monster Riley/Buffy... Adam/Sunday.

4. Keep Giles girlfriend. She was given so little to do in the couple of eps' she was in. Have her become the driving force behind the magic shop, perhaps have her leave in the season finale or just before when it's clear the slayer will always be first.

5. Make Riley's past less midwest 'aw' shuck's 'leave it to beaver perfect', and more oprhan with no one and no connections. IT'd be great if he were someone who was good not because it's what he supposed to do, but because it's what he wants to do.

6. Have the initiative be smaller and more men and black like. No ridiculous massive facility, just a small one, with some really messed up magic/tech. Think less army, more Jason Bourne-esque for it's operatives.

Just some thoughts....
 
Taake said:
Not sure I'd get rid of Riley though, but I wouldn't necessarily fight to keep him either.
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I just think that without the initiative there really is no reason to keep him around. I would have preferred to keep the feeling of isolation brewing so that when Dawn appears she has more of a reason to cling to the family tie.

On that note, I would have had Buffy 'enter' Spike mystically during the 'climax' of the season so that she can find a way to defeat to him (similar to how Faith enters Angel/Angelus' past in AtS S4). This is how Buffy first realises that maybe there is more to Spike than what she realises, and Buffy's humanity is bound to Spike, leaving him missing his soul and wanting to be a better man. This is what triggers their ultimate love story.
 
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