Why the huge Spike hate?

[VisionBoy]

I don't usually take part in these discussions, but I've been reading these and I guess I may as well throw my coin in the well.

If I'm honest, I do tend to avoid topics about Spike that aren't innately positive, because I'm not all that interested in Spuffy vs. Bangel (which it always seems to end up back to), nor am I interested in arguing. Debating: fine, straight up arguing, not interested. And I do think that when a thread is critical of Spike, it tends to go in that direction. Not always and not everyone, but it does happen.

As you can see from my avatar, I happen to like Willow. But I have no problem with people calling her up on her BS, in fact I'm happy to do so myself at times. If a thread is made criticizing Willow, I'll happily take part. As most of you probably know by now, my favourite character is Cordelia and not long a go, I took part in a "Does anyone hate Cordelia?" thread. Sure there were some passionate comments and some debating, but it was okay. As far as I know, nobody left the discussion resenting each other or taking animosity away from it and into other threads.
With Spike, it often goes beyond the place where I'm comfortable getting involved to be honest. There's heated discussion and debate, but when people start getting patronizing, accusatory and generally rather hostile with each other, I lose all interest. Unfortunately, it often is Spike topics, I can't deny that.

I actually really like Spike, but do I think he's a stand up guy all the time? Hell no. Just as I like Willow, despite her having done some reprehensible stuff at times; stuff I have no intention of excusing. Difference is... well there are a lot of differences obviously, but just in regard to talking about them here: With one, I can talk about the flaws, the terrible acts, the errors in judgement, without feeling like I've woken an angry lion. With the other, I actively avoid discussions, because I know how quickly a thread can become a hostile environment.

I get that there's a real love/hate kind of thing going, but I dare say there'll be a lot of people like me in the middle thinking "Holy...geesh... not touching that discussion!"

 

[Silverspike]

"I actually really like Spike, but do I think he's a stand up guy all the time? "

Oh of course Spikes done incredible acts of evil in his time, that I don't disagree with. Hell If he hadn't his redemption arc would make no sense would it? 😀

 

[Firstina]

But he doesn't have a redemption arc more like redemption supernova😛

 

[thetopher]

I never saw Spike as having a redemption arc at all actually- mainly because he's said on many occasions that he has no desire to atone/redeem his past actions.
Spike just... 'develops' would be a better word. By the time he gets a soul he's fully developed into...what he is. End of story.

 

[Silverspike]

I prefer to see it as Spikes walking down the path the writers set him on, and thats as a redemption one. It just takes a different form then big tall and chubby's. 😀

 

[VisionBoy]

Oh of course Spikes done incredible acts of evil in his time, that I don't disagree with. Hell If he hadn't his redemption arc would make no sense would it? 😀

And it's great that he's doing good. But it doesn't make him immune to criticism from then on. Willow, Faith, Angel, Wesley all sought redemption too, it doesn't mean they never do anything wrong or questionable. Even with a soul, Spike has flaws... and don't get me wrong, I don't see that as a bad thing; he'd be boring as hell otherwise. But a fan addressing those flaws can often be met with responses that are far more combatant than you'd tend to get when bringing up the flaws of other characters.

Both sides of the argument can get as bad as each other at times and I know some Spike fans do deal with hostile comments too. Perhaps it's gotten to a point where both sides feel they need to be on the defensive when discussing Spike? (you'd have to tell me that, I haven't been here long enough to make a conclusion there).

I'm just stating what I've observed; on a few of these threads now.

Maybe everyone just needs to group hug it out already. 😳

 

[bespangeled]

So, to recap your position- Spike went to Buffy not just to help her (which is what he says) but also because he doesn't trust himself and maybe wants her to stake him?

That really doesn't make any sense. 😕.

Maybe because he is still really insane - he is trying to do what he thinks is right. And he does have absolute faith in Buffy.

If Spike doesn't trust himself and thinks he's dangerous then he should stay away from Buffy- but he's actually trying here. Spike goes to Buffy in this instance because he thinks he's got it together enough to help her- he does his hair, puts on a costume, talks rationally and yet he still won't tell her the truth about his condition- it's illogical. i.e he trusts himself enough that he think he can be an ally but doesn't tell Buffy why..

He trusts Buffy completely - that means that she will stake him if needed. And if he waits until he is sane, then it might take forever.


.[/QUOTE]It turns out he's wrong but I still don't see anywhere that he wants to die, that he wants to be killed before 'Sleeper/Never Leave Me'- initially he wants to be made to forget the things he did:
(from Sleeper)

SPIKE: I don't know. Please, I don't remember. Don't make me remember. (called to empty space) Make it so I forget again! I did what you wanted!

But when this can't happen then he wants to be staked- it's the memories, the realization about what he's done (or being made to do) that are overwhelming him with guilt at this point. Not before and not after (as in a few episodes later)..[/QUOTE]

Agreed- and hurting Nancy's boyfriend is a major trigger. Let's the First back in. But your timing is off - he asks to be staked before he asks to have the memories taken away.

Buffy walks over to Spike, still carrying the wooden handle. She stands in front of him. He looks at her, knowing his fate, and scoots out of the cubbyhole he was hiding in. He holds open his shirt. He's crying.

SPIKE
Do it fast, OK? He said you'd do it.

BUFFY
Who said?

SPIKE
Me. It was me. I saw it. I was here the whole time, talking and singing. (sobs) There was a song.

BUFFY
What are you talking about?

SPIKE
I don't know. Please, I don't remember. Don't make me remember. (to invisible person) Make it so I forget again! I did what you wanted!



[/QUOTE]In this instance I wasn't using the writers to bolster any arguement (like say, as character explanation/plot contrivance) I was just saying that it was poorly wriiten, badly executed, and manipulative scene.
It was a classic example of ignoring the golden rule of writing 'Show don't tell', infer don't beat people over the head with it. Criticizing the writing is fine outside a specific discussion..[/QUOTE]

Yeah - you were using it to bolster your argument - But the way he tells her is specifically to garner as much sympathy (by the writers, not the character) as possible, blame Buffy for her past behaviour, while still casting Spike in the best light possible- a poor, broken man.

Or maybe he is just a poor broken man.


[/QUOTE]Okay, firstly calm down. I'm just saying that I'm used to so many, many discussions that drag Angel in at the first opportunity during a Spike-centric debate when it has nothing to do with anything, like in this case..[/QUOTE]

Yup - that is definitely the problem. You've brought my habit of doing that in several threads. Which I try so hard to get taht message out. I know it's a habit from the earlier fan wars but there are all sorts of ships now.

[/QUOTE]But fine, Angel and Spike are the most important vamps on both shows. That we can agree on at least, but in this instance I don't see how Angel is at all relevent to the discussion and leave it at that..[/QUOTE]

For me Angel is always relevant. I think that's true of any ship. If a Bangel sees something about Angel eventually they will bring in Buffy same for a Spuffy. I bring up Lilah when Wesley is spoken off. It's just a thing.

I'll leave it by saying that to me in 'Beneath Me' Spike's actions are portayed as utterly calculating up to a certain point, (initial approach of Buffy) then he deliberately 'lets his demon out' to hide the truth of his condition (in the Bronze) and then he spectacularly falls apart and reveals the truth. .

To me it shows how Spike deals with the First. Angel was also an absolute wreck - tried to kill himself. Spike is oscillating like a pendulum on steroids. He has the soul AND the First. As he told Buffy - she is the only thing he has ever been sure of. He hurt her. If he didn't have a purpose (making reparation) he would have probably already gotten rid of the memories by taking a walk in the sun like Angel tried to. Of course, Angel had a purpose too - to save Buffy from him.

[/QUOTE]I don't find any of these particular stages interesting (I know that he's got a soul), enlightening (I don't know why he acts as he does at the Bronze- to choose to act that way...) or sympathetic (the speech in the church makes me so very angry).[/QUOTE]

Sorry you feel that way. I happen to love this episode because it shows how crazy he is. Also, even with the inherent drama and pain, Buffy does not rescue him. She hears him out and then leaves him. IMO, had she rescued him it wouldn't have worked. 

I agree with the above. To me Spike is no more absolutely hated than Willow or Angel or Faith- every character has their detractors and their super-fans.

All I see is that people who have a negative opinion of Spike (even if its just some of the time, like me) often have to justify why we dislike him.

Also the Buffyverse is full of lots of fantastic, memorable characters, not just Spike. 🙂

I have never seen anyone talk about dislike of a character without explaining. But I'm fine with - I just don't like him. It's actually easier. 

i think Spike fans are making a big deal about the so called hate. There are very few people who dislike Spike, very few. Here on this thread i might only point to one. Spike is as hated as Angel or any other character. Does he has flaws?, oh yes, his biggest one is he doesnt atone much for past sins nor seems to care much for them, other than that he's a pretty cool character.

People who ship Buffy and Angel have no reason to hate Spike, he has nothing to do with them not being together, with Riley and Buffy is another matter. Spike is not hated in fact he might be more popular than Angel, he seems to be more talked about.

Huh? Okay. So almost no one hates Spike. For 10 pages in fact! 

And it's great that he's doing good. But it doesn't make him immune to criticism from then on. Willow, Faith, Angel, Wesley all sought redemption too, it doesn't mean they never do anything wrong or questionable. Even with a soul, Spike has flaws... and don't get me wrong, I don't see that as a bad thing; he'd be boring as hell otherwise. But a fan addressing those flaws can often be met with responses that are far more combatant than you'd tend to get when bringing up the flaws of other characters.

Both sides of the argument can get as bad as each other at times and I know some Spike fans do deal with hostile comments too. Perhaps it's gotten to a point where both sides feel they need to be on the defensive when discussing Spike? (you'd have to tell me that, I haven't been here long enough to make a conclusion there).

I'm just stating what I've observed; on a few of these threads now.

Maybe everyone just needs to group hug it out already. 😳

Who says he is immune to criticism? Please quote that post. What would be the point of a thread if people didn't disagree?

And I completely agree with everything else. 
So now the general idea is that problem is completely Spike fans. Funny thing, I actually asked for information but I didn't say we could not disagree or question. And I never said Spike was anything but flawed. But I specified the character - not the fans. In fact, I actually told anyone who hates Spike that it's fine in the OP. Not criticizing anything - disagreeing with mostly posts that are for me. Trying to do so by exchanging facts.

 

[thetopher]

Maybe because he is still really insane - he is trying to do what he thinks is right. And he does have absolute faith in Buffy.

He trusts Buffy completely - that means that she will stake him if needed. And if he waits until he is sane, then it might take forever.

If you have 'absolute faith' in somebody and 'trust them completly' then why on earth do you hide the truth from them and attack them when that truth is about to be revealed? 😕
Spike 'puts on a costume' and plays a part, he is acting (he says so himself). Therefore he is lying to Buffy.
Spike being deliberatly calculating actually makes more sense with the actions shown- at least until he accidentally hurts that guy.

Agreed- and hurting Nancy's boyfriend is a major trigger. Let's the First back in. But your timing is off - he asks to be staked before he asks to have the memories taken away.

You're correct- I haven't seen that episode in a while but he does asked to be staked beforehand.

Yeah - you were using it to bolster your argument

Nope, here you're wrong. I'm just pointing out bad writing and manipulation by the writers- its why I dislike this particular scene. It's a seperate issue from my earlier points about Spike's initial actions, which seems to be manipulation by Spike.

Yup - that is definitely the problem. You've brought my habit of doing that in several threads. Which I try so hard to get taht message out. I know it's a habit from the earlier fan wars but there are all sorts of ships now.

For me Angel is always relevant. I think that's true of any ship. If a Bangel sees something about Angel eventually they will bring in Buffy same for a Spuffy. I bring up Lilah when Wesley is spoken off. It's just a thing.

Really, so the next time we discuss Buffy you're going to bring up Angel, Riley AND Spike (all the important ships)? If we discuss Wesley then do Fred and Lilah have to be mentioned?

In fact since Angel/Spike aren't romantic then all relationships should be brought up- even if their not relevant to the arguement.

I never see it that way. I character is much more than just their relationships.

Sorry you feel that way. I happen to love this episode because it shows how crazy he is.

I like crazy Spike too, primary because he's interesting. But I like him in 'Same Time, Same Place', 'Help'- where he's actually crazy and not being deeply unpleasent.

So now the general idea is that problem is completely Spike fans. Funny thing, I actually asked for information but I didn't say we could not disagree or question. And I never said Spike was anything but flawed. But I specified the character - not the fans. In fact, I actually told anyone who hates Spike that it's fine in the OP. Not criticizing anything - disagreeing with mostly posts that are for me. Trying to do so by exchanging facts.

And yet you say this:

But I'm fine with - I just don't like him. It's actually easier.

So which is it? Do you want to know why people hate the guy just so you can defend him or do you not want to know?

Y'see, I can understand why people don't like Angel, Faith, Wesely, Willow or anybody really, but I don't feel the need to jump to their defence everytime they're criticised for anything they do. Nor do I see fans of these characters doing that (apart from maybe, a few Bangels in the past)

But, and this is from experience, I find that a lot of Spike-fans just have to make everybody see why 'their guy' is the greatest character in fandom. A lot of them come up with illogical fannon theories to explain away stuff, dismiss canon evidence as unimportant and make huge intuitive leaps to justify their love for the guy.

So I'll keep it simple: When it comes to S6 and 7 Spike (indeed soulled Spike in general) I just don't like the guy, I've given ample reasons why on numerous other threads. I'll put an end to this, I hope that makes it easier. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

So which is it? Do you want to know why people hate the guy just so you can defend him or do you not want to know?

Ten pages - feel free to look them over and decide that on your own.

As for not liking Spike - that's cool. I think this is the 3rd time I've said it.😉

 

[VisionBoy]

Quote: "True - but if I start to tear down Tara, won't you disagree with what I say?"

Sure, I may disagree, or maybe I wouldn't; but so long as you were backing your perspective up with stuff from the show, I'd hope that we could have a discussion without it getting mean spirited.
Again, I'm not trying to place blame on anyone in particular; just saying that I've observed a lot of Spike topics going in that direction.

 

[Firstina]

Also kinda don't like Spike's "selective guilt". He feels bad about his actions towards Buffy, but insulting Wood is okay. It's sort of funny - almost like as he thinks that some of his victims are more worthy of his remourse than others.

 

[white avenger]

Spike wasn't rude to Wood, in fact, they hardly ever spoke, until after Wood tried to kill him. I think that rudeness at that point was somewhat justified.

 

[Aqua]

Spike is a great character that was overused at times, different people have different ideas as to where that overuse was. For me, it was AtS season 5 that bugged me. Because I thought the writers brought him over to Angel because of his popularity rather than that really serving the story.

 

[bespangeled]

Also kinda don't like Spike's "selective guilt". He feels bad about his actions towards Buffy, but insulting Wood is okay. It's sort of funny - almost like as he thinks that some of his victims are more worthy of his remourse than others.

Well yeah - that would seem normal actually. Angel is clearly the same when it comes to Buffy and other victims . But neither of them is saint - they do insult people, and occasionally allow people to be made into breakfast. 

Spike is a great character that was overused at times, different people have different ideas as to where that overuse was. For me, it was AtS season 5 that bugged me. Because I thought the writers brought him over to Angel because of his popularity rather than that really serving the story.

I like Spike in season five but they did seem kind of adrift as to how to use him. Actually this season did look like it was way off balance in a lot of ways, though i do love it. I think Joss found out too early they were cancelled and tried to shove everything but the kitchen sink in. I am a Spangel fan, so I definitely can live with this problem - cuz this is the only time when Spike and Angel interact every week.

 

[Firstina]

Well yeah - that would seem normal actually. Angel is clearly the same when it comes to Buffy and other victims . But neither of them is saint - they do insult people, and occasionally allow people to be made into breakfast.

So Angel's apologies to Giles, Holtz, even Penn who was given his during the process of killing Angel are clearly not as good as one he gave to Buffy, aren't they? Don't think so, sorry. Of course you would feel more guilt when you hurt a person you love but to feel that way only for "special people" is sort of hypocrisy.
And Spike's defence with the line like "I don't give a damn because your mother was a Slayer" is kinda inconsistent. Buffy is a Slayer too, but he clearly cares about her feelings.
And sure they are not saints, if they were that way they would be angels.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Spike wasn't rude to Wood, in fact, they hardly ever spoke, until after Wood tried to kill him. I think that rudeness at that point was somewhat justified.

I think we went beyond rude when Spike told Wood his mother never loved him because she didn't quit being a Slayer (because that's totally how Slayers work), and then bit him after he had already beaten him. And then continued to wear the murder trophy he got from her in Wood's presence. Spike had a right to defend himself, but that's just being a dick.

"Kick a dolly when he's down. That was your style." Looks like it still is even with a soul.

 

[bespangeled]

So Angel's apologies to Giles, Holtz, even Penn who was given his during the process of killing Angel are clearly not as good as one he gave to Buffy, aren't they? Don't think so, sorry. Of course you would feel more guilt when you hurt a person you love but to feel that way only for "special people" is sort of hypocrisy.
And Spike's defence with the line like "I don't give a damn because your mother was a Slayer" is kinda inconsistent. Buffy is a Slayer too, but he clearly cares about her feelings.
And sure they are not saints, if they were that way they would be angels.

Well, there are those who say that conspiring to commit murder, rendering a victim helpless and trying to beat him to death is beyond rude. Though I have to admit that when Wood took his shirt off, I wasn't all that sure what would happen.😕

Is there any other character who has to be polite and forgiving during an ambush and attempted murder? 😉

 

[Firstina]

Is there any other character who has to be polite and forgiving during an ambush and attempted murder? 😉

Angel was polite. At least twice.

 

[Silverspike]

Ah good, so being polite afterwards resolves everything. 😀

 

[Firstina]

Ah good, so being polite afterwards resolves everything. 😀

Of course not.
But you at least can be polite and try to understand that victim from your past has every right to hate you and wanting to kill you.